Talk:Deir Yassin

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It is a nonsense to have two articles, one about the Deir Yassin massacre (openly stating that it DID happen, and offering historical evidence) and another, this one, that is supposedly about the Deir Yassin village, but ends up curiously trying to deny that that very event happened (or at least it tries to reformulate it from a zionist perspective, clearly not NPOV). If you want to talk about the Deir Yassin massacre, please DO it at it´s appropiate article.Violenciafriki 20:45, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

I have reverted to the previous version of Jun 21, it was remarkable that these additions stood this long. The additions were almost all inappropriate for this article, as Violenciafriki noted. It is a remarkable statement to call an article which was basically a stub, almost entirely consisting of a table and a very few links "filled with hateful materials," removing the link to the DY massacre article is just silly, arguably minor vandalism, and the external link was to a POV website, but hardly a "terror website." The right way to do things is to try to balance such links with links to ones with POV more congenial to your own, and put them in the appropriate article. John Z 03:44, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Israeli military operation?!

May I remind readers that this "operation" took place before Israel existed as a state. The forces involved (Lehi, Irgun) were terrorist organisations, not sovereign military forces. Even Ben Gurion thought so (he later tried to kill Begin - see Altalena). To call this "an Israeli military operation" is to call Munich 1972 "a Palestinian military operation". I call into question the impartiality of this page. 86.15.169.220 12:32, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

The Irgun "gang" actually operated for several years, starting in the 1930s, under British control. Blowing up resistance fighters houses, assasinations of suspected troublemakers, etc were old British tactics. The Irgun were officially sanctioned terrorists. Also the Hagganah(sp).

One could also argue by that same logic that since the state of Palestine does not exist the various "militant groups" acting within the Palestinian Territories are "terrorists". This would include those allied to the Palestinian Authority since the single criterion for designating them "terrorists" is the fact that the state they represented did not exist at the time of their activity.Judadem (talk) 04:40, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


There are sources that depict that over 200 were massacred by the Terroirsit Forces of Irgun. Ill try to find links to this, but i have a question, Do you accept links in different languages? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edudmaps (talk • contribs) 01:41, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Please report your concerns at Talk:Deir Yassin massacre. This is the article about the village. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 18:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Arabic name

It is normal for the Arabic name for a village to be provided, and not simply the English transliteration. I hope some one can provide the necessary script.Nishidani 09:41, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ynhockey

We are obliged to follow reliable sources. I for one am not going to trust personal assurances that you haven't found confirmation in a walk about the whole area. (1) unit names are referred to, not fighters (2) this is historic writing, and whether names recorded by Israeli reporters remain as they were decades ago or not is immaterial. Newspaper reports at the time by people like Nahum Barnea report data like this. Would you like me to add details about the festive celebrations in 1949 as the new village was established over it, and how Chaim Weizmann sent a telegram congratulating the new settlers? That looks like the difference between us. I don't put some things in. You take things out. Nishidani (talk) 20:03, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

By the way, the village had two mosques. It not longer exists, of course, but why did you cancel mention of the two mosques in the capsule on Deir Yassin's village? Nishidani (talk) 20:15, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't think the two mosques are relevant, at least in the infobox. This infobox is a lame copy of the one found at PalestineRemembered and is completely contrary to what is expected in Wikipedia articles. I don't mind having the information in the prose. Suppose I will make that edit. For the issue of names, I left comments here. Also the one with unit street names is Pisgat Ze'ev, just FYI. I do not mind a part that says 'according to reports from [year XXXX], a neighborhood was founded ... with street names for Irgun and Lehi fighters', but to state this is a current fact is wrong. I think that a street map is a significantly more reliable source than a Chomsky publication, and as I said, if you don't take my word for it, I am prepared to bring in other editors to confirm this point. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 21:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
What's also funny is that, now after just reviewing parts of the Chomsky book on Google books, it seems that on the previous page (166), it claims that '250 people were murdered by Begin's Irgun and LEHI...'. I for one am not prepared to call that a reliable source. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 21:26, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
After further careful inspection, it seems that Barnea didn't even say in the 1999 Chomsky book about the Irgun/Lehi street names. You appropriately sourced it with another source, which I am trying to find now. This raises the question: in that source, does Chomsky also quote Barnea, or anyone else, or does he come to this conclusion himself? I'd be very interested to know. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 21:31, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi,
Tom Segev, in 1949. The First Israelis (1987) talks about what became Deir Yassin after the war. I check what can be found there.
Concerning Chomsky, he is a WP:RS in the sense of wikipedia. If he is wrong (or lies), I think the information should be added in his own entry in a Controversies section with something such as : Noam Chomsky give faith to allegations according to which ....
But only if we are 100% sure these are allegations.
Rgds, Ceedjee (talk) 07:09, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Ynhockey You are in a state of extreme confusion.No one stated as 'a current fact' the street name changes. The text registered that streets were named after some of the units engaged in the 1948 massacre. A contemporary street map is no guide to historical toponomy (especially in Israel, where so much of the nominal landscape has been deliberately altered to erase the former Arab presence). The 250 figure is in a great many historical sources ever since an Irgun commandant boasted or boosted the figure. (2) That Chomsky echoes that outworn datum in some of his books does not invalidate those parts of his books that are very specifically referred to Israeli newspapers. You are very close to challenging a RS generically because you have found that it contains one widely bruited, but now recognisably, false historical cliché. Thta is not your job. Indeed, no one in Wiki would quote Chomsky on the death toll in Deir Yassin. They would quote Morris, or Milstein, or any number of scholars more au courant with recent research since 1988.
Chomsky is a RS, and for every comment he makes on Deir Tassin he gives an Israeli newspaper source. So while you wish to challenge him by looking at maps, you are not challenging him, but challenging his sources. In the Fateful Triangle, to cite one example, the sources for each statement are:-

212. Cited by Nahum Barnea, Davar, April 9, 1982.
213. See TNCW, p. 465, for references.
214. The Dawn (Al Fajr), Jerusalem, Sept. 24, Oct. 1, 1982.
215. Davar, April 9, 1982, the anniversary of the massacre.

Now it is not my job to check Chomnsky's or any other reliable scholar's sources. My job is to refer the article's content to reliable sources, not take a flight to Jerusalem and check if the citations he makes are correct. Since you wish to do this, (WP:OR) I suggest you go to a library and check these and other notes against the back issues of the newspapers he cites, publish an article on it, and get the article cited.
LUser:Ceedjee is a close checker of facts, and will look, as another helpful gesture, at Segev's report. I will endeavour to ascertain the precise indications on p.465 of his 1982 Towards a New Cold War(even if technically I am not obliged to control the sources used by a reliable source). But I would strongly advise you, as a matter of procedure, not to keep challenging a reliable source because personal checking of street maps doesn't yield you the information in question. Other editors are not to be expected to follow you round Jerusalem.Nishidani (talk) 08:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I was not really disputing the information about Deir Yassin found in the Fateful Triangle book (except the death toll, which is not relevant for this argument anyway). I was disputing the one found in the Towards a New Cold War book, which I was neither able to acquire, nor preview (namely, the assertion that streets there were named after Irgun and Lehi fighters - Israel doesn't usually change street names which were named after a person - only generic street names). It would help if you provided Chomsky's sources for that assertion, as well as the exact quote from the book. Chomsky as a reliable source is a highly disputed statement, and if a mistake is found in his books which makes its way to Wikipedia, I feel it is my duty as a Wikipedian to correct the mistake using other reliable sources. However, remember that the burden of proof always lies with the user who wants to insert information, not the one wishing to remove it. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 16:03, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't mind the compromise you suggest. But technically I would note that you are asking something I am not required to do. Chomsky's interpretations have often been contested ()whose haven't?). He is not known for forging evidence, or making up quotes. He is an outstanding scholar of the Hebrew language, among other things, and reads the Hebrew press. Since he has written over a dozen books on Israel, its politics and history, there can hardly be point to challenging his competence in that area. Many wiki articles quote Chomsky, that it is legitimate to cite him as a source on the region has been challenged, but, to my knowledge, not successfully. Exclude him, and you will have to exclude Walter Laqueur and a large number of Zionist writers who lack qualifications, and yet write histories that are cited here. The opposition to Chomsky is political here. It is my duty as a Wikipedian to seek reliable sources and cite them where relevant. It is not my duty, nor yours, to check out and verify those sources' sources, something which would entail original research. Nonetheless, I will endeavour to get the exact sources he uses. It may take time. My book resources are on two continents.Nishidani (talk) 16:47, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for making an attempt to find the sources for me, and notifying Al Ameer son (hopefully this will make things quicker). In any case, I believe that this is a prime case of 'Exceptional claims require exceptional sources' (WP:REDFLAG), because the article seems to imply that not only did the Israelis murder many innocents at Deir Yassin, but they also put salt on the wounds of the victims and their families by demolishing their village and calling the streets there after the murderers - this is definitely an exceptional claim. Even if Chomsky does qualify as WP:RS (which, again, is disputed, not only by me), there needs to be either an exceptionally reliable source (accepted as such by both sides), a slew of sources from both sides confirming the same fact, or both. This has not been provided so far. Cheers, Ynhockey (Talk) 18:27, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Not much info concering your issues in Segev. Sorry. Ceedjee (talk) 19:47, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

For the convenience of the participants in this discussion, an English map of the Deir Yassin area in Jerusalem (Carta, fair use). -- Ynhockey (Talk) 12:02, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Here's another one - a map, also by Carta, in the Russian language. I'm not sure what year it's from (the booklet it's found in says it was printed in 1995), although judging by other maps from the same booklet, it is from before 1988 (read: over 20 years old!). The map shows no trace of streets in those neighborhoods bearing the names of Irgun and/or Lehi fighters. link (filesize: over 3 MB). -- Ynhockey (Talk) 18:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Uh.. We are not looking for what, on I think three occasions, you call streets named after Irgun/Lehi fighters. Chomsky says streets were named after units of those organisations. Unit in English is a military term (not as in some other languages a person) for a group of soldiers.Nishidani (talk) 21:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I misread. Still doesn't change the fact that no streets named after military units feature in any of the neighborhoods around the former Deir Yassin area. I think streets in Pisgat Ze'ev (nowhere near Deir Yassin) are named after IDF units (close enough). The Irgun and Lehi didn't really have any named units to name streets after anyway (further reading), so if Chomsky is somehow insinuating that a whole neighborhood could have streets bearing solely Lehi and Irun unit names, he is inherently wrong and there isn't even a need for me to find maps of the time talked about, or for you to look for the sources - the sentence should be removed with extreme prejudice. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 22:17, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
You are familiar, I gather, with rumours about Chomsky, but not with his writings. He doesn't insinuate. He makes clear precise statements, one after another, each usually with a footnote to a mainstream newspaper or printed source. No one I know has ever accused Chomsky of inventing sources. They contest the way he interprets historical patterns, and his view that information is manufactured. So leave out 'insinuations'. The insinuations, sir, are of your own imagining, since neither I nor Chomsky have spoken of 'whole neighbourhoods'. For the second time, I will reprint the relevant passage (note the close noting of every remark, typical of his style)

A year later, Ha’aretz reported the “settlement festival” for religious settlers who were founding Givat Shaul Beth (now part of Jerusalem) in “the former village of Deir Yassin.” Ha’aretz reports further: “President Chain Weizmann sent his greetings in writing...the chief Rabbis and Minister Moshe Shapira took part in the ceremony…the orchestra of a school for the blind played…”212 In 1980, the remaining ruins were bulldozed to prepare the ground for a settlement for Orthodox Jews. Streets were named after units of the Irgun which perpetrated the massacre, and of Palmach, the kibbutz-based strike force of Haganah, which took part in the operation but not the massacre. These units were to be “immortalized on the site,” in the words of the Israeli press.213 More recently, most of the Deir Yassin cemetery was bulldozed to prepare the ground for a highway to a new Jewish settlement.214 Nahum Barnea writes that “at first Deir Yassin was forgotten. Now it is celebrated.” He describes a (to him, horrifying) tour to Deir Yassin organized by the Society for the Protection of Nature, perhaps, he suggests bitterly, because “nature was the only thing not destroyed there on April 9, 1948.” The tour (an annual event) was led by a former Irgunist, who whitewashed the operation before a largely passive audience. The actual site of the village is now a mental hospital, as is the Acre prison, site of another Irgun operation.215

Note I never added things like congratulatory remarks from Chaim Weizmann, festive celebrations etc. Unlike many who write extensive articles on the way Arabs are supposed to have celebrated in the streets 9/11, I am not a monger of Schadenfreude-trash on wiki. Al Ameer is doing us both a courtesy in undertaking to see exactly what source Chomsky used for that statement. I have as much a curiosity about this as yourself, and will happily stand corrected if, when you actually go back through the archives to photocopy the source page Chomsky refers to, and provide us with a copy to check, and measure whether the information he refers from it is correct or not, it turns out that in this case Chomsky got a ref. wrong. This is not according to Wiki rules. It is a courtesy, and an act of courtesy elicits, normally, a tolerant patience.Nishidani (talk) 22:34, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for quoting the direct passage from Chomsky's book - I thought you didn't have it with you, and didn't ask you to do this. It has clarified some things. With the help of the Hebrew Wikipedia, I zeroed in on the precise location of Deir Yassin - now a light industrial zone and mental hospital, with very few streets between them. For now, let's just wait for Al Ameer son to find the sources. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 23:10, 25 April 2008 (UTC)