Talk:Defenceman (ice hockey)

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[edit] Stub

This article is still listed as a stub (though this may be my fault, as I was the last to make a large addition to the article.) That said, what do you folks think should be added? At present, my thinking would be along the lines of more on the play in various zones, and perhaps expanded discussion of the various overall play styles by defencemen/defensemen. Others? Battlemonk 02:02, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suspiciously tall

Heights of 6'4" - 6' 7" seem suspiciously tall, even for professional ice hockey players. I know there have been some defenseman that tall and that pro-ice hockey players are above average in height, but 6'4" - 6' 7" on the average ? H Padleckas 03:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

It seems about right, looking at various defencemen: in the five listed on [1] with a last name beginning with A, there is one who is 6'0", one 6'1", and three 6'4". There are several who range to 6'7", many 6'6", and so forth. It's a bit deceptive to say 6'4" as a minimum, perhaps, but it's certainly not untrue. Battlemonk 02:06, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling of "Defenseman" for ice hockey

Proposal is soundly defeated. -- 02-28-06
The intent is to archive this decision, please do not edit.

I think the spelling of the word "Defenceman" for ice hockey should be changed in all instances to "Defenseman". Other sports, such as cricket, should continue to use the british standard "Defenceman", but it doesn't make sense for ice hockey.

The issue at hand are certain differences in the English language that have come about between North America and England since the colonies were started. Most can be attributed to Webster's logicalization of english, and I'm not sure if that applies to this word specifically, but it's notable anyway. Other such words include "Tyre" and "Theatre"

I have many different reasons for changing it in relation to the hockey article, and this is why:

  • Ice Hockey is predominately a North American sport, and using the word "Defencemen" would be the same as someone editing the baseball article and calling the person who swings the bat the "batsman" instead of the "batter".
  • Most European nations that play ice hockey don't speak english natively, and therefore would most likely use the north american spelling.
  • Google search results indicate that there are 620,000 instances of "Defenseman" while only 129,000 instances of "Defencemen" and most of those that reference "Defencemen" are referencing the cricket position.
  • Google was used to determine the frequency of both words on the International Ice Hockey Federation homepage at [2]. 66 instances of "Defenceman" and 506 instances of "Defenseman" were found.
  • Google was used to determine the frequency of both words on the National Hockey League homepage at [3]. 120 instances of "Defenceman" and 13,500 instances of "Defenseman"
  • Google: Swedish Elite League homepage at [4]. 38 instances of "Defenceman" and 7 instances of "Defenseman" were found.
  • Google: European Hockey dot net [5] 192 instances of "Defenceman", 252 instances of "Defenseman".
  • In the article itself I am commenting on, the word "Defensive" is used in a title. From a language standpoint, it doesn't make sense to have one word have a root of "Defense" and another root word be "Defence"

I believe I have proven that, in the case of ice hockey, the north american spelling should be used when describing this position. I have proven that there is not 100% consistancy in the usage, but I have also prove it is far more prevelently used by authoritative sources than the spelling "Defenceman" in the case of ice hockey.

[edit] Discussion

"Defense" is the US spelling, not the North American spelling. The correct Canadian spelling is "defence" (as well as British). "Defensive" is the correct spelling of the word no matter where you are. See here for a reference. Note that Canadian English does not match US English exactly nor British English exactly. In the other examples you gave, the correct Canadian spelling is "tire", just like in the US, and "theatre", like in Britain. I believe that there is no reason to change the article name. -- JamesTeterenko 15:59, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok I was wrong about using "North American" spelling, so "Defence" is the british and canadian spelling. Still, that fault on my part doesn't change that "Defenseman" is far FAR more prominately used Internationally in the sport of ice hockey. Why shouldn't we conform to the ad hoc international standard?--Jeff 16:06, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
If "Most European nations that play ice hockey don't speak english natively, and therefore would most likely use the north american spelling", then what is the ad hoc international standard ? Canadian spelling ? US spelling ? Pick one. -- PFHLai 16:28, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
That's my suggestion, going with the predominate US spelling. --Jeff 17:57, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
On 31 March 2004, the predominate Canadian spelling was chosen [6], and has been in use since. I am not saying 'Defenseman' with an 'S' is wrong, but it would be wrong to go against standard wikiprotocol to switch from one version of English spelling to another. This goes for any article in Wikipedia. Unless an obvious mistake was made, e.g. using American spelling in an article about Medieval Britain, we do not switch. -- PFHLai 22:38, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose The proposed move is not supported. Defenceman with a 'C' is fine. The spelling style preferred by the first major contributor to the wikiarticle should be respected, as per Wikipedia: Manual of Style. -- PFHLai 16:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
"If an article's subject has a strong tie to a specific region/dialect, it should use that dialect." from Manual_of_Style#National_varieties_of_English. The "remaining with the the original contributors style" clause is only in effect if nothing else applies. In this case, the article's dialectal use of english is contrary to the used standard. It just doesn't make sense that wiki should use a spelling that is contrary to what the standard is. --Jeff 17:57, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Are you suggesting that hockey does not have a strong tie to Canada? -- JamesTeterenko 19:05, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Not not at all. I am, however, suggesting that all evidence i can find suggests that "Defenseman" is the accepted spelling of the word in regards to the ice hockey position.. --Jeff 19:30, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, in the Canadian Dictionary link above, it states that the correct Canadian spelling for the word is with a "c". If you want Google evidence (which isn't the greatest way to tell), how about searching Hockey Canada. It has 131 hits containing one of the words (defence, defenceman, defencemen), while 82 hits with one of the words (defense, defenseman, defensemen). If you remove articles that have both spellings (speaking to potential typos), the usage is even more in favour of defence. 112 hits for defence and 52 hits for defense. Do you have any sources that suggest that the correct Canadian spelling is defense? -- JamesTeterenko 19:49, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
The standard ? 'Defenseman' with an 'S' is not the but one of the accepted spellings. The wiki has not used a spelling that is contrary to what the standard is in the English-speaking world. 'Defenceman' with a 'C' is widely used in Canada. -- PFHLai 22:53, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Look, I've been in the thick of the linguistic wars as much as anyone, and have gotten into defenseman/defenceman battles myself. That being said, it is self-evident that a large percentage of contributors, players and teams are based in and from Canada, and use ca-en usages for the term. "Defenseman" is the accepted spelling of the term only in the United States, it is not the accepted spelling in Canada, and trying to impose a universal standard where none actually exists would be a violation of the rules and needlessly antagonize many valued Canadian contributors. This is the English Wikipedia, not the "United States Wikipedia." RGTraynor 19:59, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


  • Oppose This is a tiresome subject. We been at this before and the end resolution was the context of the article dictates the spelling. Basically "when in Rome, do as the Romans" ccwaters 20:52, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose like every other person who is involved with Wikihockey. I've this argument with RGTraynor before only on the topic of "centre" over "center". However as it stands, both American and Canadian/English spelling can work, depending on where the player was born and where he has played the most notably. I do think that Defenseman (ice hockey) should redirect to Defenceman (ice hockey) so that it is not just a blank page. Croat Canuck 21:15, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
FYI, I just created the redirect. -- JamesTeterenko 22:10, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose Defenseman already redirects to this article anyway, and like everybody else said, defenceman with a C is just as correct and arguably more common. 216.167.244.113 21:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
  • OPPOSE ice hockey should use Canadian spelling by default 132.205.45.110 22:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose Defensive is from the root defence. Defencive hasn't been a word in any form of English since the 17th century.--Cherry blossom tree 00:15, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
    • FYI much of the use of "defencive" was my doing, and as I am a historian and had just been doing a lot of reading before writing this, I am not going to make any defence (har, har) of my actions. All told, though, really, just leave it the way it is. Inconsistencies are one thing, but arguing over which is right isn't going to be useful. It's defenceman, so "defence" is proper. If it were "defenseman" I'd argue the same way for "defense". Battlemonk 06:47, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose Spelling differences between various versions are trivial and we don't switch version without a good reason. No good reason has been provided. Zocky | picture popups 00:24, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
You know, the funny thing is I have to think about how to spell it. Defense or defence, gray or grey. ccwaters 01:31, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment articles about American players and teams should use US spellings, and about Canadian players and should use Canadian spellings. In all other cased the language of the major contributor should apply. For the main article a redirect and an explanation in the introduction should suffice. Kevlar67 07:01, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Final Words

Hi original proposer here. I see there's pretty much no way of winning this one and bow to the overwhelming concensus. I almost give up. I like Kevlar67's suggestion regarding the spelling in articles about the NHL or any other US-centric ice hockey article. I checked around, and the spellings are "defencemen" in the NHL article and probably many other places that might have a better arguement for it there. I will raise the question again in the future after I find out how "Defens/ceman" is spelled (or if it is) in the inscription on the James Norris Memorial Trophy. --Jeff 23:03, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Further Discussions

Hey wait a minute! You should ***NOT*** be changing NHL articles just to fit your American tastes. Ice hockey is a Canadian game, and most of the players who've ever played for the NHL have been Canadian. Canadian spelling should be default for NHL articles. I don't give a crap about British spelling, it's Canadian spelling that counts in Ice Hockey. (Why would the European IIHF want to hold it's centennial celebration, the world championships, in Canada otherwise? Since Canada scrupiously ignores the IIHF otherwise). 132.205.45.148 19:17, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

A day late and a dollar short, sir; if you were paying attention, the proposal has already been withdrawn. That being said, en-ca shouldn't be "default" any more than "en-us" is. Wikipedia's Manual of Style goes into some length as to how national linguistic conventions should apply, and that's what we do here. RGTraynor 21:49, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Discussion has been closed on the article Defenceman (ice hockey), with the point understood that the position is for an international game, and therefore the regional clause of the Wikipedia:Manual of Style does not apply to this article. Therefore, the arguement that wins this (keep the spelling as-is for this article) is that it was spelled as the major contributor felt, and there is nothing in the Manual of Style that allows a change at this time.
As I gather evidence, I may propose a change of the spelling in US-centric articles like NHL or Derian Hatcher or other defenseman from the United States. The rabid defense of the spelling of "defence" is, to me, evident of Canadian-centric and anti-americanism for no reason other than to be contrary, something Canadians seem to be very good at. (I'm from Michigan, so I love you Canadians, that's meant in good humour <-- (british spelling!) :). Anyway, future proposals will be based on Wikipedia's regional specific clause in the Wikipedia:Manual of Style. Whether I propose changes to other articles will depend on what spelling the James Norris Memorial Trophy has inscribed on it, as well as frequency of use statistics from google, and more thorough reasoning of the regional rules. --Jeff 23:32, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
May I suggest the policy listed above of sticking to whatever it was originally written as, unless there are inconsistencies in the original article? That seems pretty straightforward to me. (Written as I look across the Detroit River at... well, Windsor. --Battlemonk 01:59, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
That would be preferable to people diving into every NHL player article on a defenceman and changing the spelling to defenseman. As I read it, Jeff is proposing to change NHL player articles to defenseman, plus all American articles. While American articles are American, not all NHL articles are American. Since the majority of all NHL players Canadian, changing all NHL defenceman to defenseman is overbearingly American. 132.205.46.157 02:17, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notable defencemen

I'm inclined to X this section out as another doomed-to-be-POV-ridden bit overwhelmingly (as is usually the case with these lists) stuffed with current players; excuse me, nine out of the twelve most notable defensemen in hockey history played within the last five years, Wade Redden's among them, and Doug Harvey isn't? No. I'd be interested to hear what people think, but we either need to get this section under control and keep it there, or just lose it altogether RGTraynor 13:52, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Just as a postscript, if you're going to pick twelve defensemen to cite, here'd be my list: Moose Johnson, King Clancy, Eddie Shore, Dit Clapper, Bill Gadsby, Doug Harvey, Bobby Orr, Brad Park, Vyacheslav Fetisov, Denis Potvin, Paul Coffey, Ray Bourque. (If you get the notion that list spans eras so we don't get nine guys who played in the 2000 season and three guys who played before 1990, you're right) Any current player added would have to knock off not only someone already there, but Potvin/Coffey/Bourque. RGTraynor 14:05, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
How about if we create a separate page for a full list of NHL defencemen (we could do this for all the positions). The Notable list on this page could have restrictions such as those you are proposing. How about notable Hall of Famers with a couple (2 or 3) current players who are having a notable year (current players can be anything from top rookie to off-ice problems that are making headlines(jail or court)). That would get rid of Redden. We can place an editer's note at the top of the edit page to notify people of the restrictions. Trapper 16:51, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that "notable" lists, almost by definition, constantly become inflated and are POV-ridden. I spent two weeks reforming the "Notable Players" list that used to be part of every team page, balanced for position and era, and half my edits were trying to keep off the favorite current player of every anon IP wafting through. It's far more trouble than it's worth. RGTraynor 16:59, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
That does sound problematic. What do you propose we do with this list then? It's a shame if we scrap a list like this b/c people looking for great players might otherwise have to scroll through hundreds of names. Trapper 17:24, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
My vote is we scrap it. There are many resources available for those looking for lists of great players, including the HHOF listing available on Wikipedia. RGTraynor 18:40, 27 April 2006 (UTC)