Talk:Declaration of Independence (Israel)

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On these matters, timings and cutoffs etc., I take a view that is actually based on external criteria: mainly, self consistency. I do not accept that the USA became independent in 1776, Indonesia in 1945 - or Israel on precisely this date in 1948. Rather, I regard those as moments of conception, with independence being like a birth attained sooner or later but always after conception. I take this view, as any other implies (say) that the Confederate States of America attained independence in 1861 only to lose it in 1865 - something that is in fact true of Texas' time as the Lone Star State. For me, US attainment of independence was in 1783 - as any earlier point was capable of being overtaken by events. This in no way affects the real significance of 1776 as a mythic event, an input to the people of the USA; it's just that it's only the declaration, not the achievement.

This approach is criticised in some quarters - for instance newsgroups, where the coincidence of my applying the approach to Israel is sometimes misread as being antisemitic. But I am actually applying something more general. However, rather than jump straight in, I am going to canvass this sensitive area and outline examples of the sort of specific change I want this article to reflect. For instance, the declaration was not based on the views of the Israeli public - there was no such public until after everything had taken effect. And, to me, independence was only really attained at one of two possible points: UN recognition, or the end of that war itself (analogues of 1783 and 1781 for the USA respectively, so I prefer the later of the two dates).

Now, with a view to making this self consistent and consistent with other things (like the possibility that there would have been no state of Israel, whether because of the Arabs or Hillel Kook and the like), what changes of wording and/or of cutoff dates would work and not be felt as antisemitic? In this sensitive area it is far too easy for people to feel a different rational approach is simple prejudice, and I want to head off that form of anti-rationalism as much as I can in advance. A vain hope, I'm sure. PML.

Surely this page should be moved to "Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel" . ed g2s • talk 19:54, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] What does this mean?

Moving this to talk: "No Arab nations were at the time members of the League of Nations, and hence the Arabs of Palestine lacked Arab support, although they got the support of other muslim countries (such as Pakistan and even India and Yugoslavia which had large Muslim minorities)." - it is unclear who makes this argument. Why would the Arabs decide Jewish self-determination? How many Jewish nations were at the time the members of the League of Nations? If we are going to discuss this point (this article is a wrong place), we should note the fact that 20+ Arab nations were carved out of the Ottoman Empire (note, this number does not include non-Arab states such as Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkey, etc.) ←Humus sapiens ну? 11:45, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: The request for citations

There is some background on the whole topic of the story surrounding the signing here

This Line Wasn't Needed--85.250.231.91 14:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:RS

I noticed Humus claimed that The Guardian is not RS. LOL. Are Arutz Sheva and JPost the only RS for him? Fine. Read this from JPost [1]. Peace. --Nielswik(talk) 08:34, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

First, Nielswik: do not tag major edits like this as "minor" and use edit summaries. ←Humus sapiens ну? 08:45, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I set my default mode to minor. I'm changing it latter. Anyway, I just added another name, and that's not major edit. Peace. --Nielswik(talk) 09:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Please set your defaults responsibly because it looks like you use them to deceive. From now on let's assume that you do know how to use Minor edit and Edit summary. ←Humus sapiens ну? 10:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Second, Nakba is Palestinian exodus and not the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel. ←Humus sapiens ну? 08:45, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Wrong. Naqba is Israel's creation. Even JPost said so ... during a speech marking the anniversary of what the Palestinians consider to be the "catastrophe" (Nakba) of Israel's creation. ... [2] and of course guardian Al-Naqba:The annual "day of catastrophe" marked by Palestinians on the anniversary of Israel's declaration of independence on May 14, 1948 [3]. Peace. --Nielswik(talk) 09:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Only one article should use Naqba as "another name", you cannot stick it everywhere you want. See also 1948 Arab-Israeli War. ←Humus sapiens ну? 10:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Third, newspapers are good for news and not good for encyclopedic definitions. Guardian is good for nothing. ←Humus sapiens ну? 08:45, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I heard pro-Israeli editor denied Al-Manar as RS before, but this is the first time i heard Guardian is not an RS. Please stop attributing non-Israeli sources as non-RS. I have no idea what is your definition of RS, but according to wikipedia definition The Guardian definitely is. Why don't you think so, anyway? It is a terrorist organization? Peace. --Nielswik(talk) 09:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Also Look CNN: Palestinians mark the anniversary of what they call "Al-Naqba" or "day of catastrophe" -- the creation of the Israeli state, The Israel Project: AN-NAQBA - Literally means "catastrophe." The Muslim name for Israeli Independence Day. If you think CNN is not RS, let me know what is your definition of RS. Where is your sources that it is palestinian exodus anyway? Peace. --Nielswik(talk) 09:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Scholarly sources for encyclopedic definitions, please. If you insist that "Naqba" is "Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel" then it should be removed as "another name" from other terms. ←Humus sapiens ну? 10:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Obviously an Naqba is the creation of Israel. I have no idea why it appeared at other articles. Ask people who added it. Peace. --Nielswik(talk) 16:11, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
WP:RS should settle this. ←Humus sapiens ну? 00:14, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
What did you mean by RS? After you rejected the reliability of CNN, Guardian, even your pro-Israeli JPost, I have no idea what to do. Peace. --Nielswik(talk) 04:51, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] AUSTRALIA

Australia was also one of the first countries to Recognise Israel along with the others already noted. I feel that Australia Sould be added to the list. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.180.194.93 (talk) 06:02, 14 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Declaration of Establishment!?

There was no such declaration - it was called "Declaration of Independence" and it is generally referred to as such. Calling it something else reduces the usefulness of the entry in the encyclopaedia. Any thoughts on this? Whether or not calling it "Declaration of Independence" makes sense is a separate issue, and not really relevant to any entries concerning history of Israel. If there are no objections, I will create an entry for "Declaration of Independence of the State of Israel" copy contents of this entry to it, and redirect this entry to it. Michael Voytinsky 17:03, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not understand the basis for your statement. The government of Israel refers to it as the "Declaration of The Establishment of the State of Israel". (The link to the document on the government web site is in this article under External Links.) The body of the document also uses the word "establishment." I realize that these are translations from the original Hebrew, but the Israeli government seems like a pretty reliable source for the terminology of its own history. 6SJ7 17:53, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
In Hebrew it is הכרזת העצמאות, which is Declaration of Independence, that one website is not a basis for it to be written like that and doesn't make it an offical stance by the Israeli government. Also, Declaration of Independence is the standard English term for not only Israel, but most countires. Epson291 09:37, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
I cannot comment on the translation, as I cannot read Hebrew. However, I don't see how you can say that the English version of a phrase appearing on the Israeli government web site is not the official "stance" of the Israeli government. It seems pretty official to me. I am not going to change this back, I will just note that you have now created a situation where the name of this document on Wikipedia now differs from its name all over the Internet, including the official Israeli government web site. This also raises the question of whether an editor's translation of a phrase, when it differs from the translation by other sources, is "original research." 6SJ7 20:44, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Just an added note, I do not mean to imply that I think the Israeli government web site is always correct in its translations from Hebrew into English; in fact, I know of at least one example where the same Hebrew phrase is translated into at least two different English phrases on different pages, suggesting that one or more of the translations are "incorrect". (See Talk:Deputy leaders of Israel.) But it raises the same issue I mentioned above, that is: How is Wikipedia supposed to decide which is "correct", when some of us know the "source" language and some of us don't? 6SJ7 00:43, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
For הכרזת העצמאות, the "הכרזת" means announcement, declaration, or proclamation. "העצמאות" means independence or self-sufficiency. So the particular person who made that webpage descided not to do a translation of the Hebrew term at all rather just a descirption of what the paper was (which contains the phrase 'establishment of the state of Israel' near the bottom). It was a "declaration of the establishment of the State of Israel" just as much as it was a "declaration of independence.", though the latter term is the same as the Hebrew and the standard "phrase" for many other countries (Declaration of independence).
An offical Israeli website, the website for the parliament (knesset), http://www.knesset.gov.il/docs/eng/megilat_eng.htm or http://www.knesset.gov.il/lexicon/eng/megilat_eng.htm, has both (though using "proclamation" instead, and on the second website only uses the direct translation from Hebrew. Epson291 07:01, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Main Page

Shouldn't it say "Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion publicly read Israel's Declaration of Independence in Tel Aviv."
It would be more clear as to which country they are referring. Just my thoughts.
Blindman shady 04:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] For effect of translation in the World

Segundo consta, os palestinos na extinta Palestina e inclusive os judeus, não conheciam o hebraico em 1947 mas sim o árabe, no entanto como existe em exposição na Knesset, um documento original dessa declaração, escrito em hebraico, tudo leva a crer que trata-se de uma sobreposição de caracteres hebraicos sobre as letras de um idioma existente. Seria interessante então, que informassem (a titulo de tradução) sobre qual idioma foi plotado os caracteres hebraicos, isso é, se foi escrito em inglês com caracteres hebraicos, ou em árabe (já que era o idioma da região) com caracteres hebraicos?.

Outra dúvida que é oportuno incluirem aqui: A quem foi endereçada essa importante declaração? Aos ingleses ou aos palestinos?


Por favor, traduzam-me essas dúvidas para que a meu filhinho de 5 anos de idade, possa contar com a tradução do "Microsoft Word" e desse modo, conhecer as palavras que sustentam as bases de Israel.

[edit] Improvement

Very nice - I especially like the lesson that if you want to be notable - don't write the first draft! Johnbod 03:28, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

This page should be redirect to Israeli Declaration of Independence. 96.229.179.106 (talk) 02:33, 28 January 2008 (UTC)