Talk:Declaration of Arbroath
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[edit] WikiSource
Text probably belongs on WikiSource rather than here. —Ashley Y 10:55, Feb 25, 2004 (UTC)
The translation is a GFDL one done specially for Wikipedia. The text is here so that people may modify the translation if they think some part of it to be incorrect. -- Derek Ross 15:17, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- It may still be appropriate to put it on WikiSource... —Ashley Y 09:41, Feb 27, 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Most Famous Quote
The most famous quote from the declaration is the phrase traditionally translated as:
For as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any condition be brought under English rule. It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.
The above phrase turns up hundreds of independent hits on google.
An unfortunate consequence of our translation is that this key phrase is translated uniquely. Someone searching for the well-known bit "as long as but a hundred..." (as I did) will not find our Wikipedia entry.
Is there a case for bringing this highlight of our translation partially into line with the traditional translation? --Air 15:38, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
As the author of the Wikipedia translation, I take your point. However I was aiming to make the translation as literal as I could without completely sacrificing English grammar. This was partly for reasons of clarity to others who might want to check the translation and partly to avoid copyright problems with other modern translations. The Wikipedia translation may not be as rousing as the one that you quote, but it is closer to what Cardinal de Linton actually wrote and it is licensed under the GFDL.
Having said that, how do we address your point ? Well I suggest that the best way is to include the quotation in the main article text with a comment about its place in history. That should allow people who search for it to find our article. We could also make minor changes to the translation: "True man" could be changed to "honest man" for instance. But I'm against reducing the accuracy of our work with the sole aim of getting more web hits or a higher ranking on Google. -- Derek Ross | Talk 02:27, 2004 Oct 16 (UTC)
- Hi Derek, I agree with your points on accuracy of translation, the purist approach is best. After some research, the 'popular' translation was made by Sir James Fergusson. I can find other translations by Agnus Mure MacKenzie and another from 1689 which use different wording again. Hence I think a quote from Fergusson as you suggest will (1) point out his contribution and (2) highlight the most rousing part of the letter, while leaving our translation intact. --Air 14:57, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Consent of the Governed
Does the phrase consent of the governed which first appears in the Declaration of Arbroath have deeper roots in the Magna Carta? -- (unsigned by Anon)
- I don't remember seeing that phrase in the DoA. -- Derek Ross | Talk 07:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] All those damned kings
I'm surprised the article doesn't at least mention the exasperation or humor (take your pick) in this passage:
- "May it please you to admonish and exhort the King of the English, who ought to be satisfied with what belongs to him since England used once to be enough for seven kings or more..."
- ...cui sufficere debet quod possidet cum olim Anglia septem aut pluribus solebat sufficere Regibus...
—OtherDave 19:39, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- You're right: that is quite a funny line, <grin>. -- Derek Ross | Talk 20:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] No Mention in Article of Declaration's Real Purpose
The declaration of Arbroath was a petition by Nobles to the Pope to have Robert the Bruce reinstated as a member of the Catholic Church as they felt he sho8uld be as King. He had been excommunicated for inviting his Comyn cousin to a church to parley and then murdereing him on the alter. (Comyn's had a similar claim to the throne as the Bruces-both having an ancestor who was of similar royal descent.)
[edit] Bruce deity
In the words of the declaration, it says "though he afflicts, he heals" in regard to Robert the Bruce; this phrasing though normally imputed to Christ hiimself is clearly meant to describe Robert the Bruce who was a descendant of the lines claimed to come from Jesus's putative children. So the phrase was meant to overcome any objections of the Pope in refusing the request to reinstate Robert the Bruce...as surely being a descendant of Christ and so Holy / Holier than the Pope could not be igored. /s/ LEC
