Talk:Debt

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[edit] Cleanup

Added POV nomination. The article contains many unattributed claims and, in particular, contains the assertion that inflation indexed bonds are one of the safest investments - while that may be true, it is also an opinion based upon certain assumptions and is almost canonical POV. The overall format of the article is pretty bad, especially for a topic that is so fundamental for economics. Possibly needs a complete reorganization. PaigePhault 03:25, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

  • The section on securitization is poorly written and self-contradictory. Securitization may be too technical a concept to introduce in such detail. The section on risk-free interest rate unclearly explains that risk-free is not risk-free and refers to the abstract concept of the "real value of money." The critics section should be rewritten so that, for example, feminist criticisms of debt include, not "feminism ..." - critics are heterogenous communities that express a range of viewpoints. PaigePhault 13:19, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Items Missing

This needs stuff on odious debt, like when countries borrow money but dictators spend it on palaces. Also global debt should have numbers.

One paragraph was cut out:
"Similar arrangements could exist for individuals in that they could agree to repay a percentage of their earnings for a set amount of time in return for a sum of borrowed money. The lender would need to evaluate the future earning capacity of the borrower (this is possible and is often done anyway when lending), but more difficult would be the necessity to track how much they do in fact earn during the "repayment period". Typically, only governments can track earnings of individuals in such a way, and so such arrangements are only currently of use to governments. It is possible to view a portion of taxes as such a form of repayment in return for the cost of government services previously "lent" to citizens, for example education when the citizen was young or government paid maternity leave for the citizen's mother to look after them. Such views occasionally form part of justifications and structuring of some taxation. Some taxes in some countries are only collected from individuals that have received particular services, such as university education. Such an arrangement provides an incentive for the government to make the education useful, since they are sharing in the proceeds from it."
it is mainly on possibilities of personal debt relief. User:J_heisenberg 12/9/04

[edit] Relation to human lifespan.

One line of thought would say that the incentive to buy now and pay later is increased if human lifespan is decreased. But if man lived for 900 years instead of 90 years, man would would probably still want the capital markets just as much as they do now.--Jerryseinfeld 14:34, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Debt and optimism-procrastination

I corrected the passage to make clearer the loop between debt and deflation. Excess in debt/GDP ratio is the first cause of deflation, this was not explained. Once agents start to repay their debts, deflation follows and then debt becomes more expansive ... A loop happens, well explained by fisher.

I also tried to put into words what fluctuation in the debt/GDp ratio mean.

I know I once created an account, but can't remember it. If I start to intervene often I suppose I'll have to create another one. François Dubreuil.

[edit] New Definition of Debt

I would like to offer up the idea of adding a new section called "Other Definitions":

Debt: Debt originates in a transfer of ownership of wealth in which the owner does not immediately receive full compensation in wealth. Debt is always a negative quantity. All currencies are physical embodiments of debt. Currency represents wealth not received.

The fundamental difference between an IOU and currency is that an IOU is a token symbol of debt with respect to individuals; currency is a token symbol of debt with respect to an entire society.

All forms of wealth are positive quantities, subject to physical deterioration, whereas all forms of currency are symbols of debt, negative quantities not subject to deterioration. Wealth exists in physical form, debts do not. Wealth exists in the real world; debt exists only between our ears—as a concept. People cannot exchange debt, but can exchange IOUs or currency which are symbols of debt; that is, token symbols representing an unfinished exchange of wealth and thus, a future claim on wealth. Therefore, currency embodies both concepts of money and debt.

Taken from the NESARA Institute. inigmatus 18:30, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Total debt includes all amounts owed by humans individually and collectively: cash, checking and money market deposits, credit cards, leases, mortgages, bonds, notes, bills, and other obligations. This is also called the money supply and its less liquid derivatives.

[edit] accounting

I just modified debt/GDP ratio and created a total debt article. But that may not be the proper way to go. I think we need here a basic accounting lesson on how debt is measured. We need to distinguish between household, business, financial sector debt, internal and external debt and the likes.

I think there are too many articles on external debt and national debt, with too few links with this central article.


After some reflection I added 2 paragraphs in order to try to assess the problems. Of course those are just tentative tries in 5 minutes. I hope all of you can bring lots of input to better the proposition. But i think worth it to state the different types of debt agregates and the difference between public an private accounting of debt.

[edit] Link cleanup

I removed the {{cleanup-spam}} tag as the link provided does not appear to fit the criteria. Furthermore, I have adjusted the link to a new page on JEHD as the previous OCED site now lists this notice:

"Website to be discontinued

External debt data are now maintained in a new format on a website managed by the World Bank at www.jedh.org.

This website will be updated in parallel only for the next few months to enable users of external debt data to make a smooth transition to the new website and data format." Ben 15:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Saving (money)

Would Saving (money) be an appropriate addition to the links in the Finance template? Brian Pearson 02:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Or, what about under "See also"? Brian Pearson 03:01, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Saving (money) added under "See also" Brian Pearson 01:27, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Religion; debt

I think we can be more specific on Religion and debt. For example, referencing Proverbs 22:7, the often quoted verse on the Dave Ramsey show. This won't help POV, yet...
I think maybe some references to some quantitative comparisons of "Credit Card Addicts", those that manage and keep up with debt, and those who primarily save money, in various cultures and income brackets may be useful; if someone can find some.
(QUINTIX 15:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC))


[edit] Deletion of the "Repayment by write-off" section

Sorry, the whole section "Repayment by writing-off debts" is legally totally incorrect. (The section was: "A debt is repaid in full by the lender writing off as a bad debt (for tax purposes) the principal and interest owed (on a debt that is not being paid), leaving no debt remaining on its (the lender's) books. A simple analogy gives a better understanding: if a stranger comes in and pays off a debt you owe, you no longer owe it, because it has been paid. In the tax writeoff example, the lender, in writing off the principal and interest of your debt, has been paid 100% of both principal and interest by his tax deduction, yielding a tax saving equal to 100% of your debt. Accounting recognizes this by extinguishing your debt in full, no longer permitting that debt to be shown on the lender's books. Further "transfer" of this already paid debt to a collection agency is simply fraud, as no debt remains to be collected upon."). I'm sorry, but in the event a creditor writes off a claim, this debt is neither repaid nor settled. Such write-off of claims is legally required to avoid any misleading figures in the balance sheet, but it has no releasing effect for the debtor. And, I'm sorry, the creditors' loss will not be refunded by the tax authorities, if this was so easy, why should anyone repay any debt. If inpaid debt would vanish to nothing, this would be a great thing especially in light of the subprime crisis. But for the time being, I have completely deleted this section. I don't think that this section needs to be renewed, because writing off claims has nothing to do with debt. Fab —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.178.34.204 (talk) 18:47, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] a new section called debt syndication

a new section called debt syndication is recommended Sanjiv swarup (talk) 02:08, 24 February 2008 (UTC)