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Contents 1 The {} sign/s 2 why is Bartelbys semitic roots reference reverted ? 3 why are Judges 4 and 5 reference to Kadesh reverted ? 4 The Egyptian Campaign Literature

[edit] The {} sign/s

One or more of the sign/s: {{NPOV}}{{expansion}}{{Cleanup}} placed on this page without any discussion, explanation or reasoning have been removed pending further discussion. (The category Category:Bible stories is now up for a vote for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion#Category:Bible stories) Thank you. IZAK 11:00, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] why is Bartelbys semitic roots reference reverted ?

ENTRY: dbr2, - DEFINITION: see dpr.ENTRY: dpr. - DEFINITION: To turn one's back on (probably denominative from an old word for “back”). West Semitic variant (assimilated) form dbr. Aldebaran, from Arabic ad-dabarn, the following, follower, from dabara, to follow. Rktect 12:41, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] why are Judges 4 and 5 reference to Kadesh reverted ?

whose name means to follow was a prophetess and the fourth Judge and only female Judge of pre-monarchic Israel in the Old Testament (Tanakh). Her story is the story of the battle of Megiddo where the Egyptians attack the king of Kadesh with whom the apiru bandits are allied. The story is expanded upon inJudges 4 and 5. Judges 4 begins with a claim that Jerusalem is taken, a claim that is not made during the Conquest. The comparison of Egyptian campaign records with Judges 4 makes it clear that Kadesh is the antagonist and among the Sons of Israel who participate its the northern tribes who are at the forefront. The adversary is clerly Egypt as the commanders name indicates. Despite that Egypt wins the battle from the perspective of the northern tribes of the not yet unified nation to be of Israel, they aquitted themselves well Rktect 12:41, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

The story of Deborah is one of the best correspondences between Egyptian campaign accounts of the Conquest and Biblical accounts. Both accounts agree the Egyptians took a round about route and initially plundered the forces of Kedesh (Kadesh) allowing them to retreat to a fortified Megiddo.

The Bible story mentions fighting with unbound hair and the Egyptian accounts illustrate it. Both accounts mention Tanachs waters. The Egyptians fight against Kadesh in the mountains at the headwaters of the Orontes from 1479 BC to 1285 BC which is generally the period of the Conquest. Allies of the northen tribes include the Hittites while Hazor and the Amurru reain Egyptian allies. Kadesh marks the northern boundary of Israel in the mountains where the headwaters of the Orontes and the Jordan join with the headwaters of the Litani river to define the borders of Retnu as the watershed of the Orontes and the watershed of the Jordan as the djadi.Rktect 20:51, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Egyptian Campaign Literature

The following is from ANET for purposes of discussion. The place names are all clearly south of the Litani in the djadi not retnu and the Egyptian campaign accounts all place Kadesh in the mountains so if that is what you mean by undisputed then I would agree. The text uses the Egyptian phrase "come forth from" the Orontontes not ford it. There is no word or phrase for "crossing the ford" of the Orontes in Egyptian. The disputed territory would be the watershed of the Orontes (retnu) and the Jordan (djadi). Bordering the zone of confontation is Lebanon with Sideon, Tyre and Byblos having interests to the west of the cedar mountain and Syria and the Mitanni remaining interested parties to the east. Ramesses and his armies are travelling in single file as they go through the mountains not spread out as on a plain and that is why the ambush works so well. Rktect 01:36, September 6, 2005 (UTC) with its NOR policy, WP is hardly the place to argue circumstatial evidence from opaque swathes of text. If some scholar proposed another location for Kadesh, that's cool, cite author, book title / ISBN and page; if not, we are clearly in OR territory. dab (ᛏ) 13:06, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Thutmosis III THOTHMOSIS III (Late Bronze Age, 15th c. B.C.E.): The Asiatic Campaigns of Thut-mose III: The Armant Stela (15th c. B.C.E.)ANET., p.234 Live the Horus: Mighty Bull, Appearing in Thebes; the Two Goddesses: Enduring of Kingship, like Re in Heaven; the Horus of Gold: Majestic of Appearances, Mighty of Strength; the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Lord of the Two Lands, Lord of Making Offerings: Men-kheper-Re; the Son of Re, of his Body: Thut-mose Heqa-Maat, beloved of Montu, Lord of Thebes, Residing in Hermonthis, living forever. Year 22, 2nd month of the second season, day 10. Summary of the deeds of valor and victory which this good god performed, being every effective deed of heroism, beginning from the first generation; that which the Lord of the Gods, the Lord of Hermonthis, did for him: the magnification of his victories, to cause that his deeds of valor be related for millions of years to come, apart from the deeds of heroism which his majesty did at all times. If (they) were to be related all together by their names, they would be (too) numerous to put them into writing His majesty made no delay in proceeding to the land of Djahi, to kill the treacherous ones who were in it and to give things to those who were loyal to him; witness, indeed, [their] names, each [country] according to its time. His majesty returned on each occasion, when his attack had been effected in valor and victory, so that he caused Egypt to be in its condition as (it was) when Re was in it as king. [Year 22, 4th month of the second season, day... Proceeding] from Memphis, to slay the countries of the wretched Retenu, on the first occasion of victory. It was his majesty who opened its roads and foxed its every way for his army, after it had made [rebellion, gathered in Megid]do. His majesty entered upon that road which becomes very narrow,' as the first of his entire army, while every country had gathered, standing prepared at its mouth. ... The enemy quailed, fleeing headlong to their town, together with the prince who was in... (15)... to them, beseeching [breath], their goods upon their backs. His majesty returned in gladness of heart, with this entire land as vassal... [Asia]tics, coming at one time, bear-ing [their] tribute...See also fuller description from the Temple of Karnak and similar type of description from the Barkal stela. ANET., pp. 234-238. Almost all subsequent campaigns were directed against rebellious cities in Upper Retenu (that is, Syria) and not Lower Retenu, Djahi. The city of Kadesh and the kingdom of Mitanni were generally the focus of the king's military campaigns. See: ANET., pp. 238-242. [edit] Thutmosis IV THOTHMOSIS IV (Late Bronze Age, 14th c. B.C.E.): "A Syrian Captive Colony" ANET., pp. 248. The settlement of the fortification of Men-khepru-Re (Thothmosis IV) with the Syrians (=Kharu)[of] his majesty's capturing in the town of Gez[er]. [edit] Seti I Campaign against Kadesh SETI I (Late Bronze Age, 13th c. B.C.E.): Campaign of Seti I in Northern Palestine," ANET., pp.253-254. Year 1, 3rd month of the third season, day 10. Live the Horus: Mighty Bull, Appearing in Thebes, Making the Two Lands to Live; the Two Goddesses: Repeating Births, Mighty of Arm, Repelling the Nine Bows; the Horus of Gold: Repeating Appearances, Mighty of Bows in All Lands; the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Lord of the Two Lands: Men-maat-Re [Ir]-en-Re; the Son of Re, Lord of Diadems: Seti Mer-ne-Ptah,(full titulary of Seti I) beloved of Re-Har-akhti, the great god. The good god, potent with his arm, heroic and valiant like Montu, rich in captives, (5) knowing (how to) place his hand, alert wherever he is; speaking with his mouth, acting with his hands, valiant leader of his army, valiant warrior in the very heart of the fray, a Bastet terrible in combat, penetrating into a mass of Asiatics and making them prostrate, crushing the princes of Retenu, reaching the (very) ends of (m) him who transgresses against his way. He causes to retreat the princes of Syria (Kharu), all the boastfulness of whose mouth was (so) great. Every foreign country of the ends of the earth, their princes say: "Where shall we go ?" They spend the night giving testimony in his name, saying: "Behold it, behold it? in their hearts. It is the strength of his father Amon that decreed to him valor and victory. On this day one came to speak to his majesty, as follows: (15) "The wretched foe who is in the town of Hamath is gathering to himself many people, while he is seizing the town of Beth-Shan. Then there will be an alliance with them of Pahel. He does not permit the Prince of Rehob to go outside." (Generally all the cities are near Beth-Shan.) Thereupon his majesty sent the first army of Amon, (named) "Mighty of Bows," to the town of Hamath, the first army of the (20) Re, (named) "Plentiful of Valor," to the town of Beth-Shan, and the first army of Seth, (named) "Strong of Bows," to the town of Yanoam. (See Karnak inscription on felling trees near Yanoam.) When the space of a day had passed, they were overthrown to the glory of his majesty, the King of Upper and Lower Egypt: Men-maat-Re; the Son of Re: Seti Mer-ne-Ptah, given life." The alliance seems to be Retnu, Kharu, Hamath, Pahel, Yanoam all near Beth Shean and well south of Kadesh Campaigns of Seti I in Asia ANET., pp.254-55. Temple of Karnak A= Campaign(s) in Djahi Year 1 of the Renaissance, and of the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Lord of the Two Lands: Men-maat-Re (Seti I), given life. Then one came to say to his majesty: "The foe belonging to the Shasu are plotting (5) rebellion. Their tribal chiefs are gathered in one place, waiting on the mountain ranges of Kharu (see Beth Shan stela). They have taken to clamoring and quarreling, one of them killing his fellow. They have no regard for the laws of the palace." The heart of his majesty--life, prosperity, health!--was glad at it. (10) Now as for the good god, he exults at undertaking combat; he delights at an attack on him; his heart is satisfied at the sight of blood. He cuts off the heads of the perverse of heart. He loves (15) an instant of trampling more than a day of jubilation. His majesty kills them all at one time, and leaves no heirs among them. He who is spared by his hand is a living prisoner, carried off to Egypt. C= Campaign(s) in Djahi (Somewhere in Palestine Seti I attacked a fortified place, "the town of the Canaan," which we cannot locate. As the accompanying text indicates, this was on the same expedition as that of the scenes just mentioned.) Year 1 of the King of Upper and Lower Egypt: Men-maat-Re. The desolation which the mighty arm of Pharaoh--life, prosperity, health !--made among the foe belonging to the Shasu from the fortress of Sile to the Canaan. His majesty [pre]vailed over them like a fierce lion. They were made into corpses throughout their valleys, stretched out in their (own) blood, like that which has never been. (Another scene shows the felling of trees around the "town of Yanoam." See Beth Shan stela. A similar scene mentions the felling of trees in Lebanon)... Lebanon. Cutting down [cedar for] the great barque upon the river,"[Amon]-U[ser-h]et,"~ as well as for the great flagpoles of Amon... D = Campaign(s) in Djahi The return [of] his majesty from Upper Retenu,having extended the frontiers of Egypt. The plunder which his majesty carried off from these Shasu, whom his majesty himself captured in the year 1 of the Renaissance. E = Campaign(s) in Upper Retenu Other scenes show Seti I engaged with the Hittites in Syria. He is shown attacking a mountainous settlement, "the town of Kadesh." in Syria.The going up which Pharaoh--life, prosperity, health !----made to desolate the land of Kadesh and the land of Amurru.* (Either on this expedition or on a subsequent campaign, the pharaoh came into military competition with the powerful state of Hatti. He is shown in battle, with the legend:)The wretched land of the Hittites, among whom his majesty--life, prosperity, health !--made a great slaughter.On his return to Egypt, the pharaoh enjoyed the usual triumph and made the customary gift acknowledgement to the imperial god Amon.) [Presentation of] tribute by the good god to his father Amon-Re, Lord of the [Thrones] of [the Two Lands, at] his return from the country of Hatti, having annihilated the rebellious countries and crushed the Asi-atics in their places...The great princes of the wretched Retenu, whom his majesty carried off by his victories from the country of Hatti, to fill the workhouse of his father Amon-Re, Lord of the Thrones of the Two Lands, according as he had given valor against the south and victory against the north... Beth-Shan Stelae of Seti I ANET., p.254. BASOR (1952): 24-32. On this day,lo (10) [one came to tell] his [majesty]: The Apiru of Mount Yarmuta(identified by Albright as at or near Belvoir, 10 km from Beth Shan), with Teyer..., [have ari]sen in attack upon the Asiatics of Rehem. Then [his majesty] said: How can these wretched Asiatics think [of taking] their [arms] for further disorder?... (16) ... Then his majesty commanded a certain number of people from his [infantry and his] numerous chariotry that their faces turn back to the foreign country Djahi. The space of two days elapsed, [and they returned in triumph from] the country Ye ..., having [their] levy [consisting 0f ]living [captives] as plunder .... [edit] Ramesses II RAMESIS II (Late Bronze Age, 13th c. B.C.E.): "The Asiatic Campaigning of Ramses II" ANET., pp.255-256. Now then, his majesty had prepared (8) his infantry, his chariotry, and the Sherden of his majesty's cap-turing, whom he had carried off by the victories of his arm, equipped with all their weapons, to whom the orders of combat had been given. His majesty journeyed northward, his infantry and chariotry with him. He began to march on the good way in the year 5, 2nd month of the third season, day 9, (when) his majesty passed the fortress of Sile. [He] was mighty like Montu when he goes forth, (so that) every foreign country was trembling before him, their chiefs were presenting their tribute, and all the rebels were coming, bowing down through fear of the glory of his majesty. His infantry went on the narrow passes as if on the highways of Egypt. Now after days had passed after this, then his majesty was in Ramses Meri-Amon, the town which is in the Valley of the Cedar. His majesty proceeded northward. After his majesty reached the mountain range of Kadesh, then his majesty went forward like his father Montu, Lord of Thebes, and he crossed (12) the ford of the Orontes, with the first division of Amon (named) "He Gives Victory to User-maat-Re Setep-en-Re. His majesty reached the town of Kadesh ....Now the wretched foe belonging to Hatti, with the numerous foreign countries which were with him, was waiting hidden and ready on the northeast of the town of Kadesh, while his majesty was alone by himself (17) with his retinue. The division of Amon was on the march behind him; the division of Re was crossing the ford in a district south of the town of Shabtuna, at the dis-stance of one iter from the place where his majesty was ; the division of Ptah was on the south of the town of Arnaim; and the division of Seth was marching on the road. His majesty had formed the first ranks of battle of all the leaders of his army, while they were (still) on the shore in the land of Amurru .... Year 5, 3rd month of the third season, day 9, under the majesty of (Ramses II). When his majesty was in Djahi on his second victorious campaign, the goodly awakening in life, prosperity, and health was at the tent of his majesty on the mountain range south of Kadesh. After this, at the time of dawn, his majesty appeared like the rising of Re, and he took the adornments of his father Montu. The lord proceeded northward, and his majesty arrived at a vicinity south of the town of Shabtuna.... [add full text of battle here] B. LATER CAMPAIGNING The town which his majesty desolated in the year 8, Merom. The town which his majesty desolated in the year 8, Salem. The town which his majesty desolated on the mountain of Beth-Anath, Kerep (Palestine ?). The town which his majesty desolated in the land of Amurru, Deper (region of Tunip in Syria?). The town which his majesty desolated, Acre. The wretched town which his majesty took when it was wicked, Ashkelon. It says: "Happy is he who acts in fidelity to thee, (but) woe (to) him who transgresses. thy frontier! Leave over a heritage, so that we may relate thy strength to every ignorant foreign country! Beth-Shan Stelae of Ramses II ANET., p.254. BASOR (1952): 24-32. Year 9, 4th month of the second season, day 1 ... When day had broken, he made to retreat the Asiatics .... They all come bowing down to him, to his palace of life and satisfaction, Per-Ramses-Meri-Amon-the-Great of Victories (the capital in Delta)... Rktect 18:08, September 4, 2005 (UTC) [edit] Kadesh in the mountains They did, I did. Citing ANET is not exactly OR territory. THOTHMOSIS III (Late Bronze Age, 15th c. B.C.E.):The Asiatic Campaigns of Thut-mose III: The Armant Stela (15th c. B.C.E.)ANET., p.234 ...the land of Djahi, ...to slay the countries of the wretched Retenu, ...gathered in Megid]do... The enemy quailed, fleeing headlong to their town, together with the prince who was in...with this entire land as vassal... [Asia]tics, coming at one time, bear-ing [their] tribute...similar type of description from the Barkal stela. ANET., pp. 234-238...rebellious cities in Upper Retenu (that is, Syria) and not Lower Retenu, Djahi. The city of Kadesh and the kingdom of Mitanni were generally the focus of the king's military campaigns. See: ANET., pp. 238-242. "The Asiatic Campaigning of Ramses II" ANET., pp.255-256. " Kadesh in the mountains" SETI I (Late Bronze Age, 13th c. B.C.E.)Campaign of Seti I in Northern Palestine," ANET., pp.253-254. Year 1,Seti Mer-ne-Ptah,...crushing the princes of Retenu,...He causes to retreat the princes of Syria (Kharu), ..."The wretched foe who is in the town of Hamath is gathering to himself many people, while he is seizing the town of Beth-Shan. Then there will be an alliance with them of Pahel. He does not permit the Prince of Rehob to go outside." (Generally all the cities are near Beth-Shan.) Thereupon his majesty sent the first army of Amon, (named) "Mighty of Bows," to the town of Hamath, the first army of the (20) Re, (named) "Plentiful of Valor," to the town of Beth-Shan, and the first army of Seth, (named) "Strong of Bows," to the town of Yanoam. (See Karnak inscription on felling trees near Yanoam.) The alliance is Retnu, Kharu, Hamath, Pahel, Yanoam all near Beth Shean well south of Kadesh. Campaigns of Seti I in Asia ANET., pp.254-55. Temple of Karnak. A= Campaign(s) in Djahi ...the Shasu are plotting (5) rebellion. Their tribal chiefs are gathered in one place, waiting on the mountain ranges of Kharu C= Campaign(s) in Djahi in Palestine Seti I attacked a fortified place, "the town of the Canaan,"...the foe belonging to the Shasu from the fortress of Sile to the Canaan. (Another scene shows the felling of trees around the "town of Yanoam." See Beth Shan stela. A similar scene mentions the felling of trees in Lebanon)... Lebanon. D = Campaign(s) in Djahi...from Upper Retenu,having extended the frontiers of Egypt. The plunder which his majesty carried off from these Shasu, E = Campaign(s) in Upper Retenu...Seti I engaged with the Hittites in Syria. He is shown attacking a mountainous settlement, "the town of Kadesh." in Syria the land of Kadesh and the land of Amurru...The wretched land of the Hittites,...the country of Hatti, having annihilated the rebellious countries and crushed the Asi-atics in their places...The great princes of the wretched Retenu, whom his majesty carried off by his victories from the country of Hatti,...Beth-Shan Stelae of Seti I ANET., p.254. BASOR (1952): 24-32. ...The Apiru of Mount Yarmuta(identified by Albright as at or near Belvoir, 10 km from Beth Shan), with Teyer..., [have ari]sen in attack upon the Asiatics of Rehem. ...to the foreign country Djahi. Also for that matter Judges IV refering to Kadesh in the context of the battle of Megido. and the original

Rktect 23:07, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

There should be some consensus as to what should and shouldn't be included under the topic of Deborah and the Battle of Megiddo. Maybe we could put the references to Egyptian "battles with Kadesh" including both the campaigns of the 18th and 19th dynasty under the main topic as a footnote so as to not overwhelm the original article? I don't know how you can really address the topic without establishing both the set and setting. In the time of Ramesses II the war of which "The Battle of Kadesh" is a part has been ongoing and continuous at least through the 18th and 19th dynasties (c 1550 BB - 1285 BC)or almost three centuries.

Its possible that it goes back as far the accounts of Sinuhe of conflicts with Retnu in the mountains abutting the Litanni river in the 12th dynasty. In the interim you have the Hyksos occupation of Egypt which appears to be a sort of a gradual build up of trading emporia in the delta into an ursurpation of the royal perogatives in the delta region. The principle escalations are tied to two dramatic technological breakthroughs in communications and control enabling the expansion of kingdoms into empires. The first is the rise of the sea peoples as an international trading confederacy whose networked monopolizations of trade can rival anything the land folk can muster, and the second is the first appearence of horses with riders. Both international shipping and horses with riders can be used to deliver messages, rapidly transport troops, expand trading links and generally facilitate the communications and control that make empire possible.

Kadesh is a player whose importance is greatly underestimated. We hear lots about the Hittites or men of retnu and about the Mittanni, Amurru and Egyptians and their connections to Syria, Canaan and Lebanon, but as Kadesh is specifically mentioned as a foe whose very ability to survive three centuries in this border region attests to its having some ability to defend itself it would be interesting to examine what we actually know about it. In particular I am interested in connections between the mTn or Mitanni and the ktn or people of Kadesh both of whom appear to be distinct in being portrayed as tall, with long hair, sails, wings, horses and winged horses or ships whose stems are carved in a horses head and may carry horses.

Its king is present at Megiddo where he is allied to the enemies of Egypt. In the illustrations of the battles of Kadesh there are a couple of indications that the people of Kadesh have a walled city. The Biblical descriptions of it as a city of refuge make it sound like it exists on the border as some sort of strong neutral state like the swiss.

There are other indications that it is considered a bamath or high place, possibly located at the headwaters of the Orontes where people come to be made Kodesh or holy, bathed by sacred prostitutes or Quadeshu. kadash [Hb] hallowed, sacred; a temple prostitute in a pagan religion.[1] Cf. qadhesh. kadēshim [Hb] pagan temple prostitutes; the plural of kadash. The Vulgate mistranslated kadeshim as effeminati in all places, except one.[2] Cf. qĕdĕshīm. kadosh [Hb] qadesh kadosha [Hb] qedeshah. There is a stele showing k t ur t det goddess k t3 standing on a lion making peace between Reshep and Min over Anat. [Qeteah] In the Biblical version of the battle of Megiddo it is the judge Deborah who gets Barak to bring the men of Kadesh from their mountian. The theme of a goddess standing on a lion includes 1.) With 10 arms (India Maa Durga, Mahishasura) 2.) With 8 arms and a pair of wings (Sumer/Akkad Ishtar, Astarte) 3.) Associated with a tree, or a pole or seven branches of a tree (Canaanite Asherah, Ashtaroth, Menorah) 4.) Wearing a distinctive headdress (uraeus) or hairdo (Egyptian [knt] Hathor) with a crescent moon 5.) With a crescent moon, sun, star or fortification (Hurrian, Hepit, Hebat) 6.) Associated with holyness (Kodesh, Baalat, Deborah) 7.) Associated with high places, holy waters, purification and absolution (Kadesh, Qudshu) 8.) Associated with sacred temple priestesses or Quadeshu, Artemis, Aphrodite, 9.) Associated with wisdom (Asherah, Athena) 10.) Holding snakes instead of drugs and herbs (Minoan Aphrodite) 11.) As a seated godess of war with shield and spear (Hittite Anat) 12.) As a seated goddess of peace and widom with Harp (Amorite, MAR TU) 13.) As a seated goddess with Harp representing justice found in law and order (Ashtorah)Rktect 21:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)