Talk:Death of Joseph Smith, Jr.

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Contents

[edit] New article

This article was created by moving all the material and related footnotes from the Smith's death section of Joseph Smith, Jr., and rewording the introduction so the article will stand on its own. Please edit and enhance per discussion at the main article. --MrWhipple 22:19, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dunham's Actions

I have removed the following paragraph from the main article:

On 26 June 1844, Smith sent message to Major-General Johnathan Dunham of the Nauvoo Legion that he should lead the militia to the jail in order to protect and accompany Smith and his associates back to Nauvoo. Dunham decided to ignore Smith's order, fearing such an action would instigate a major conflict that could erupt into civil war. Dunham informed no one of Smith's order or of his decision to disregard it.

This quality of information should be refrenced and supported. In talking with Whipple it may have come from something the revered Mr. Quinn developed. In doing research trying to find support for claim the last three days, which has been fruitless, I came across quotes in numerous other websites that quote WIKI's article. It is one of those endless rounds without a legitimate head or beginning. This underscores the importance of quality editing and supporting claims. Let's make sure that there is more support than my favorite, Mr. Quinn. Otherwise we end up with a slur to Dunham that may be unwarranted. Storm Rider 22:48, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

I came across this photo on the Tanners' web site: [1]. Assuming the letter is authentic, it appears that Joseph Smith did order Dunham to bring the Legion to Carthage. I don't know the rest of the story -- did Dunham receive the letter? Was it countermanded by a later letter? Did he ignore it? If so, did he have reason to? --MrWhipple 03:30, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
I have no idea whether the photo shown by MrWhipple is authentic, but the story of the orders is corroborated by the jounal of Joseph Smith's former bodyguard, Allen J. Stout, who shows obvious disgust at Dunham keeping the order secret and not responding. It also explains why Joseph Smith was so calm in hearing of armed men approaching. 68.45.104.173 (talk) 19:05, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lynched / Assassinated / Martyred

Several times recently, I have reverted edits using the word "lynched" to describe JSmith's death (on this and Smith's home article). Of course, it is an accurate word, given its general meaning: "to put to death by mob action without legal sanction." However, to our general readers and editors, I think it implies death by hanging due to lynchings in the US Southern States. It is also a more POV word than "assassinated" or "killed." Given the word's accuracy, however, should we continue to revert? WBardwin 05:38, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Though it may be accurate, in today's usage it is misleading for the reasons you stated. I would vote that it should be reverted; however, I do believe there may have been a discussion where Visor and COgden may have been involved. I would seek their imput first.
Yes, certain words set a "tone" that can lead to either positive or negative meanings. However, I would oppose the usage of any word that lead one to believe Joseph simply died. It necessarily must connote a violent act taken by bloodthirsty men intent on murdering Joseph Smith. So, I don't agree that lynching is POV; it is appropriate, but a word usage out-of-date for our time. Storm Rider 05:51, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
  • I think lynch is incorrect. It clearly implies hanging, which none of the accounts I see actually suggest. It might have been a "lynch mob" but there are no claims he was actually lynched. Here is the definition I have:
 to put to death (as by hanging) by mob action without legal sanction
Wikibofh 15:24, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
  • I think assasination gives the proper tone, especially when you take into account that he was running for President of the United States at the time. If ten people shot JFK at the same time, we still wouldn't call it a "lynching", would we? Wadsworth 7 October 2005
    • I concur, "lynched" is not a preferred term for this article. As you stated, it may fit the strict definition, but it's mainly used to describe the hanging of blacks by lynch mobs, making it unsuitable for our purposes. Cookiecaper 17:09, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree that "lynched" has a modern implication of hanging. I also think that "assassinated" gives the wrong impression, because it implies that a single person or small group of people caught Joseph Smith unaware and killed him (think Martin Luther King, Jr., Robert F. Kennedy, etc.). This was a mob action. The interesting thing is that there was an attempt made on Smith's life several months before Carthage. On 26 April 1844 Robert and Charles Foster and Chauncey Higbee attempted to assassinate Smith in his office with a pistol. The were arrested, and released on $100 bond. --MrWhipple 17:03, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm okay with assassinated. Although assassinations are usually carried out by only a few assailants, I've never thought of that as contained with the word. I don't believe people will be confused by ther term, especially if it's used in something like "assassinated by a mob". Cookiecaper 17:09, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Assassination is an appropriate word. Julius Caesar was assassinated by dozens of men. -Silence 08:52, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

There has been a discussion about use of the word 'martyred' at Talk:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I won't repeat the whole thing here, but assassinated refers to death for political beliefs, martyred refers to death for religious beliefs. Between the two I think that Joseph Smith's religious beliefs were a much more significant part of his life than his politics, therefore, martyred is more correct. The statement "Most Mormons consider him a martyr for his beliefs." is POV, I suspect ALL Mormons would consider him a martyr as would many non-Mormons. Look up the definition of the word 'martyr'. It would be more correct to say "Some Christians object to the classification of Joseph Smith as a martyr" and cite a reference. So I'm changing it and rewording it a bit. 74s181 13:46, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I added a section for the inevitable debate on the classification of Joseph Smith as a martyr. 74s181 15:25, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I haven't been following the discussion on the other talk page, but having looked at it, I don't see that any consensus has been reached. It's clear in my mind that both "assassinated" and "martyred" have NPOV problems that can be solved by simply replacing the word with "killed". No need to get fancy here. As to the section on classification as a martyr, I see this as a minor issue in the broader doctrinal issue of the meaning of Smith's death. COGDEN 01:27, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Templates and white space

I have to admit, guys, that I am not a fan of templates and probably never will be. But I generally hold my typing fingers about them. But come on!! All that blank space next to a row of templates. This is an improvement? What do we owe our readers? Information. Let's bring the article contents to the fore. WBardwin 07:40, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

What skin/browser are you using - I added the table at the top so that it would float the tables off to the right and start the text at the top - and get rid of the whitespace. I'll revert for now until we can find somehting that works for other setups. --Trödel 11:25, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm an AOL customer (sometimes to my sorrow) and use the default MonoBook skin. A fairly routine combination -- so probably used by many of our readers as well. White space on Life of Joseph Smith, Jr. from 1831 to 1844 as well. The others come across ok. Hope you can fix the problem. WBardwin 19:12, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I can see what you mean I was unable to edit Brigham Young, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints because of blocked IPs due to anon vandalism - you have my sympathies - and I will get those later. --Trödel 21:21, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Succession

I am wondering about the completeness of the section on succession. The activity around succession claims involving Sidney Rigdon, and Joseph Smith III all had significant impact on how things played out after 1844, and each case made claims that succession was prefigured by Joseph Smith before his death (preparation for succession). Are there others intending to add these things, or to link to articles with this other information? Without these pieces, the article's quality seems affected by bias. The article on Succession crisis (Mormonism) has a lengthy discussion of the claims to succession, and this article may only need to be linked back to it? Jerekson 14:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I added a main article link to the succession section as described above.74s181 18:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for reference

There was a citation requested by Duke53; however he must have missed that the statement is already footnoted. The problem is that the footnote only reads "Star, Lance", can someone please complete the reference and then remove the citation request that was erroneously placed. Storm Rider (talk) 07:28, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I found the reference Starr refers to in an article titled, "Was Joseph Smith a Martyr or a Murderer". He attributes it to Dallin H. Oaks and Marvin S. Hill, Carthage Conspiracy (Urbana, Illinois: University of Illinois Press), 1979, 51. I corrected the citation Oasisbob 06:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
There is a reference to Ed Decker saying that "Some Christians object to the term martyr". As to the term martyr, Smith is a martyr by definition (see discussion at The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The question is this: Is Ed Decker a ligitimate representative for the Christian Community, and should he be referenced in the intro? Seems a bit extreme and obscure to me. Bytebear 19:44, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I reworded the intro from 'assassinated' to 'martyred', see my comment above in the the 'Lynched / Assassinated / Martyred' section. I suspected it would be controversial so I put in a balancing statement and cited the reference you noticed. It was the first halfway legitimate thing I could find, I'm hoping that someone who really thinks that Joseph Smith wasn't a martyr will come up with a better reference. I'm still learning about Wikipedia, so if I haven't done this properly I would appreciate feedback. 74s181 22:21, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Drinking wine in the jail

I removed the following edit:

According to the History of the Church, Smith and his companions consumed alchohol while incarcerated.

::Before the jailor came in, his boy brought in some water, and said the guard wanted some wine. Joseph gave Dr. Richards two dollars to give the guard; but the guard said one was enough, and would take no more. The guard immediately sent for a bottle of wine, pipes, and two small papers of tobacco; and one of the guards brought them into the jail soon after the jailor went out. Dr. Richards uncorked the bottle, and presented a glass to Joseph, who tasted, as brother and the Doctor, and the bottle was then given to the guard, who turned to go out. (History of the Church, Vol. 6, page 616)

John Taylor, later the third President of the Church, related the following:
"Sometime after dinner we sent for some wine. It has been reported by some that this was taken as a sacrament. It was no such thing,; our spirits were generally dull and heavy, and it was sent for to revive us.... I believe we all drank of the wine, and gave some to one or two of the prison guards." (History of the Church, Vol. 7, page 101)

This has no real value unless one is attempting to shock by stating Joseph Smith drank alcohol while in jail. The Word of Wisdom was the revelation Joseph Smith received that counseld people how to live. It was not given to be an absolute rule...it was only advice. You should also know that the pioneers were required to have coffee before leaving Nauvoo for the Salt Lake Valley. This is nothing to quote. --Storm Rider (talk) 00:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree that the material removed has "no real value" except to shock. It gives an idea of what it was like in the jail;what the prisoners were doing; and how they felt before the mob showed up. I think that Joseph Smith's last days are completely relevant in an article about his death and the circumstances surrounding it. I believe that the material should be reinstated with some comments on the Words of Wisdom and their role in church practices. If the material makes people come to a better understanding of both Smith and the WoW, isn't that a good thing? If you disagree, please elaborate on your point that the material about Joseph Smith's actions in the day or so prior to his death is not relevant to an article about his death. Jacob1207 20:22, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
First, the last days of Joseph Smith are important, but I fail to understand the importance of what they drank and what they ate. The importance of his last days are what he and his associates said and did, what those who sought his death said and did, and the actions and words of those who facilitated that death. The topic is death, what caused it, why, where, when, and who. These are important, but attempting to bring up the role the Word of Wisdom played in the early church is not the topic; it is not even worth mention. However, it may be worth a mention in the Word of Wisdom article itself.
You seem to propose that every detail of his last day is important. Surely that is not valid for this article. Did he eat bread? Did it have butter on it? What did he eat for breakfast? Was it his favorite breakfast foods? Did he have indigestion that morning or the night before? Did he see the sun or was it cloudy? Did he drink water from a well or from another source? I reject the value of including minutiae in every article. For those who believe in Joseph Smith and for those who detest him, minutiae might be interesting, but that does not make it of value every time the man's name is mentioned.
Although many of us feel the importance of many things, all topics can not be covered in each article. It creates redundancy and overly long articles. An encyclopedia is not intended to give exhaustive details, but rather to provide the highlights of a topic. Does this make sense to you? --Storm Rider (talk) 23:24, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I think that the content in question can and should be usefully included in the article and I'm disappointed that you're taking the position that it should be excised completely. I would rather collaborate to usefully incorporate some of the details into the article. Of course, I am not of the opinion "that every detail of his last day is important." I found the material in question interesting and think that others may as well. Per your suggestion I have edited part of the material in question into the Word of Wisdom article; please take a look at it.
Do any of the articles on the life of Joseph Smith give any indication that he consumed alcohol? If not, is the information encyclopedic? If it is, wouldn't this be a good place to include it? Just wondering. Jacob1207 01:57, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure; the articles change so often that it is unclear of content at all times. It is my understanding that Joseph drank wine; it was a relatively common event. The Word of Wisdom, at the time it was given, was only counsel and not applied as it is today. Many of the early saints also used tobacco. As I said above, they also consumed coffee. Most of these things are commonly known history. Jacob, I am a strong advcate of keeping articles focused on the topic. When contversial topics are involved, as Joseph Smith seems to be, the article topic will often become obscured by all types of additoinal information. In this situation, the information that he drank wine is not germane to the topic. I will look at the other article. Thanks for making the effort. Cheers. --Storm Rider (talk) 02:33, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Martyrdom?

What, more specifically is this Martyrdom debate about? The text says:

There is some controversy over the classification of Joseph Smith, Jr. as a martyr.

There's most probably no such controversy outside the vast number of Latter-Day-Saint churches, so the controversy must be between some of the "Saints" themselves (no offense meant). The section Classification of Joseph Smith, Jr. as a martyr should be clarified on this matter. If it is "non-Saint" sources that criticise this martyr classification, then the matter should be put in an article or section about contrary opinions. Rursus 19:43, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

This subject is discussed in the section Lynched / Assassinated / Martyred (above) and in other places. But to summarize the discussion, "martyr" can't be used because not everyone can agree that the church that he founded is a valid religion. "Assassinated" can't be used because he wasn't killed for his political views. "Lynched" can't be used because it has the modern implication of hanging. "Murdered" can't be used because no one was ever charged for killing him. And "killed" can't be used because his death was more than that. In summary, there is no word which can be used that is acceptable by consensus. The only thing that can be agreed upon is that there is controversy over his death, but this wording hasn't been approved by consensus. Val42 00:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I disagree as to killed. That's a neutral term that doesn't imply anything controversial. Murdered is also neutral and it's accurate, because the killing was obviously intentional and premeditated, even though we don't know for sure the identity of who did it. Just like how you can say that JonBenét Ramsey and Tupak Shakur were murdered. COGDEN 00:59, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree that killed and murdered should be acceptable for exactly the reasons that you specified. But the above is my recollection of the many discussions on the subject. Val42 19:45, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Following is an excerpt from what I have previously said about this. 74s181 02:02, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

"Killed" may be less offensive to some people, but "martyred" is more accurate. One may be killed by being gored by an ox, run over by a wagon, shot for cheating at cards, etc. Joseph Smith was killed for his religious beliefs, therefore he was martyred. Assassinated is less accurate, although he was a politician for a short time, most people are not even aware that he was a US presidential candidate. His entire life revolved around his role as founder and leader of the Mormon church. 74s181 02:02, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Joseph Smith went to Carthage voluntarily, "...like a lamb to the slaughter..." but he did fire a few shots with a pepper-box revolver after attackers started firing into the jail. However, there is nothing in the dictionary definition of 'martyr' that says a martyr has to meekly accept his fate. In fact, the Wikipedia martyr article includes those who voluntarily surrender their lives actively attacking others in the name of a religous cause. 74s181 02:02, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
"Died" would be the most neutral, but it isn't accurate. We could say: "Joseph Smith led the church until his death in 1844." This is factually correct, but doesn't convey as much information as "killed", which doesn't convey as much information as "martyred". We could also say "...until he died in prison in 1844..." Not exactly correct. "...until he was shot while attempting to escape from prison in 1844..." Whoa, completely factual but also completely wrong. How about "...until he was killed by an armed group who disagreed with his religious teachings..." Accurate, but kind of long, might still be offensive, and by the way, isn't that what 'martyred' means? "...until his death in 1844..." would be definitely be less offensive to some Christians. Is that the goal? To sacrifice brevity or accuracy in order to avoid offense? 74s181 02:02, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Isn't being less truthful in the interest of reducing offense itself POV? Now I'll add one other thought. Although mainstream Christians have some qualifications for being a Martyr, this term is not restricted to Christianity. I would say that as long as mainstream Christians insist that Joseph Smith and his followers were / are not Christians we needn't be restricted by their definition of martyr in describing what they did to Joseph Smith. Personally, I don't have time to follow all the places where the martyrdom of Joseph Smith is mentioned and keep changing them back to 'martyred', but I think this is the most accurate word. If the consensus is that 'martyr' is too POV, then it should be replaced with "killed by an armed mob because of his religious beliefs", which is the the only other way that the truth can be stated. 74s181 02:02, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I see nothing in what you (74s181) said that I disagree with. I, too, think that "martyred" (or variation thereof) would be the best word. There hasn't been any disagreement in this particular discussion against using that word. Let's let it go for a few more days then if there have been no objections, we should change it. Val42 02:47, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mason reference

The following reference has been provided regarding Joseph Smith's last words:

Why was Joseph Smith a Mason?, from Sunday Sermons, by By Cordell and Janice Vail, http://www.vcaa.com/epistles/sss/ss-masons.htm, dated 23 Nov 2003, retrieved December 15, 2007.

The problem is this is not a reputable reference from an expert source. When reading the attached article it is clear that the Vail's have a very strong POV and there is no support in this reference for the statement other than personal opinion. Can someone provide a reputable reference? I know they must exist from someone that has done more than just offer opinion. --Storm Rider (talk) 11:06, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lynching/Death

As a general reader of Wikipedia I find this whole discussion beyond intellectual & more on a wrangling over opinions of whether 1. It is okay to insult 13 million people with inaccurate terms, over 2. Using the correct & accurate terms. Joseph Smith did not kill himself, he did not want to die, his life was horribly wrenched from him in a small upstairs room of a little jail in an even less notable county of Illinois. Death? Yes, he is dead & the world is not better for it. Murdered without a doubt & by the people of the land of Missouri, Illinois, Ohio, & Mississippi that time & again stole the lands, goods & crops of his religious followers. Taken at gunpoint & by war alive or dead. Leaving families, women, children, widows, destitute in the cold winters of early America. Cry for the trail of tears. Hurt for the loss of the Long Walk. But shed not a tear, give no right of deference to those who died along the western trail to escape the horrors dealt them in the land of their fathers. Yes, their fathers were of the Mayflower, were those who fought the fight of the Revolution & for America. I know for both are in my lineage & others I have met & studied. He died a Martyr to his religious beliefs. The Expositor is rife with the Anti-Mormon sentiments of the local & regional people. It is without doubt that he was killed for his religious beliefs. He died assassinated for his political beliefs which were a plenty beyond Presidential (remember Mayor of Nauvoo (an unwanted Swamp brought to prominence rivaling Chicago!). Because of this kind of manipulative reporting most people believe, Bobby Kennedy was the first presidential hopeful assassination! Not true. Joseph Smith tread that path over 100 years earlier. Many of the Apostles, including Brigham Young were distributing material to that end when the assassination occurred. He was also a military commander of the Nauvoo legion, a legal & proper American militia of the type in those times of America. The real Mormon people, even in their most desperate times supported a government that rarely even noticed them. Joseph Smiths example & Brigham Young's prodding providing the Mormon Battalion to repel Santa Anna finally from Texas & other territories that became the American Southwest. Where is General Joseph Smiths Statue? An unmarked grave is all, as his son, Joseph Smith III, so respectfully wrote in his song. He died serving his country & was buried in a true patriots grave. Those are facts gentlemen. Try as you like to sound intellectual about your presentations it doesn't come out that way. The man is dead, report it truthfully & accurately or at the expense of your own intelligence jargonism loose the very thing that Wikipedia is trying to achieve. The truth. Perhaps the truth is that you need a small paragraph on each item & let people decide for themselves what the truth is.

Some additional information. Anti-mormon writers should be restricted to contributing on Anti-mormon sites. Sites dealing with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints should be written by people who are actually associated in some positive intellectual way. Just as I would not presume to relate reliable Catholic information & editing, the use of anti-mormon writers material is very questionable in defining areas of history that have been well written & referenced by actual Mormon writers. Anti anything should not be the staple of a article on Wikipedia. Also consider this please: would it be acceptable to refer to all the Protestants as Catholics since they broke from Catholism but still believe in the Bible? I think most Protestants would agree that the Bible is not the sole definition. Likewise it is incorrect to refer to all break away church's from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as Mormons because they believe in portions of the Book of Mormon Another Testament of Jesus Christ. They chose another course & left the original church. They own no copyrights to the associated body of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints nor any true rights to claim ownership of the doctrines, words, or teachings of real Mormons. In a Christian attitude of not making them offenders for a word, the LDS church has been generous in not calling them to task for these misrepresentations but recent events, like the FDLS Child Abuse Scandal, the Warren Jeffs Trial, & other polygamous prosecutions, point out that more & more, just because groups use Mormon words does not truly, in any way, associate them with real Mormons of the LDS church. A careful delineation between the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints & other break-off groups has become important in accurate reporting & writing alike. These ex-Mormon groups have been through the excommunication processes within the LDS Church & lost or given up the right to claim true affiliation or representation of the church. This is true of most, although not all, anti-mormons. They may or may not be associated with the break-off groups or even protestant groups. They may speak or write their mind as much as they like but they do not have a right to represent the LDS church in anyway other than their own experiences. Often their reference sources are highly suspect using unclaimed documents, suspected forgeries, & a variety of time consuming research to distract & dissuade a completion of a rightful project about which they earned the title of anti-mormon for. Lastly, be clear there is not one among all these herein listed that could not return to active membership in the LDS church by applying the principles of Faith in Jesus Christ, Repentance of all wrong doing, Rebaptism to reactivate their membership in the Church & a remission of sins & letting the Holy Ghost that is given them to guide their direction in the path of the Savior. They have closed the door but he stands outside waiting for the door to be opened. As recently as last April 2008 Conference, President Monson asked that they return, they are not forgotten, nor are they far from our hearts. mormontrailnews Mormontrailnews (talk) 16:59, 24 April 2008 (UTC)