Talk:Death anniversary

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Contents 1 Source 2 Abstinence? 3 Annual? 4 Hello? "Death anniversary"? 5 Homemade or purchased? 6 Additional Chinese name? 7 Changes in Korean section 8 Death anniversaries in Western/Christian traditions?

[edit] Source

Good source: http://www.cjvlang.com/Hpotter/book2/bk2ch08.html Badagnani (talk) 04:59, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, that's my webpage. I don't remember the sources I used, but I did check around. However, the terminology is somewhat complex and confusing, and I may have simplified somewhat.

I've added translations of several Japanese Wikipedia articles to Badagnani's talk page. I hope that it may be of use.

The idea that alcohol etc. should be abstained from comes from China, I believe, which is why the character 忌 or 'abstinence' is used.

Bathrobe (talk) 09:44, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Abstinence?

Do people celebrating a death anniversary abstain from alcohol or pleasure during these days? The food seems so good, at least in Vietnam, that one would think that at least that is pleasurable, and also, in the film The Vertical Ray of the Sun people seem to be drinking rice wine during this day. Badagnani (talk) 05:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

At least for the kids, it's always been a festive affair. I've never seen any instance of the menfolk abstaining from alcohol in a ceremony such as this. I never questioned it as a kid, but when I came back there for my grandmother's first death anniversary last year, I was struck by how sexist it was...the women had to stay in the kitchen and do all the cooking while the men sit on the table being served on, talking politics and whatever else that they talk about. Women eat in separate tables and only after the men have eaten. DHN (talk) 05:16, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

One abstinence I know about is that the departed's closest relatives (direct descendants) are to refrain from marriage for 3 years. I was made aware of this when my brother had to go through a special ceremony in order to be able to marry only 1 year after our grandmother passed away. DHN (talk) 05:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I don't think this is something specific to the actual day/celebration, though. Badagnani (talk) 05:22, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. This source says it's a day of abstinence in China. A friend in HCM City says it's never considered a sad occasion, even though it's celebrated for someone who has died. Badagnani (talk) 05:19, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Annual?

The source above says that the mainichi is celebrated in Japan every seven days after the death of the person. So is a death anniversary not always annual, but celebrated in other intervals? If so, a "mainichi" isn't really a death "anniversary." Badagnani (talk) 05:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hello? "Death anniversary"?

The name is very weird at first sight. In Korea, the ritual or ceremony for deceased ancestors are called charye (차례). It is quite complex and has several names according to the occasion, time, people. And I think I've seen very similar article existing already here. --Appletrees (talk) 05:43, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I found the existing article, ancestor worship which also lacks Korean jerye (제례), general terms referring to death anniversary. The charye(차례) is one of eight jerye and is held in the early morning of Korean tradition holidays like Seolnal(설날), Korean New Year day and Chuseok(추석), Korean thanksgiving day and others. The other 7 jerye are held at night. I leave you a Korean link regarding jerye http://www.koreartnet.com/wOOrII/ere/jaere.html Besides, Korean women not only make tteok but also many dishes for the ceremony. Heotjesabap is a derivative of that. --Appletrees (talk) 06:29, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I added a bit under "Korea" in this article, and in Ancestor worship. Please check it. Why is there no Korean WP article on 제례? Also, what is the etymological relationship between 제례 and 차례? Badagnani (talk) 06:40, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Because the culture is very complex and too important for Koreans, the article related jerye would easily much longer than Korean shamanism. In addition the article requires profound knowledges ranging from hanja beyond essential education and Confucianism study. --Appletrees (talk) 06:58, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Everything starts with a stub. It's too important to leave with no article at all. Badagnani (talk) 07:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

In Japan it's not just a "death anniversary". As you can see, Buddhist services are held every seven days until the 49th day, and there are also monthly services. I don't think that the article should tie itself down to an analogy with "birthday" (i.e. celebrated every year). The article needs to be made more flexible to accommodate the Japanese situation. (The Japanese probably got it from the Chinese originally, anyway).

Bathrobe (talk) 01:15, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Homemade or purchased?

In Vietnam, are the dishes usually homemade or may some be catered/purchased? Badagnani (talk) 06:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Dishes are usually homemade. But because of many dishes and large size of familly in Vietnam, the cooking is really hard work. Nowadays, some famillies cater or purchase dishes.--Bình Giang (talk) 02:13, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Added to article. Check it. Badagnani (talk) 02:20, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Additional Chinese name?

Is 祭禮 be another Chinese name? Badagnani (talk) 06:55, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

No. That is a general term to refer to all of death anniversaries held in Korea.

Here is a hierarchy. And among eight jerye are sometimes overlapped, so generally these four jerye below are held in the present. Charye is not alternative name of jerye. Sometimes, jesa(제사) is used for jerye.

• Jerye: 제례(祭禮)
  • Charye: 차례(茶禮)
  • Gije: 기제(忌祭)
  • Sije: 시제(時祭)
  • Myoje: 묘제(墓祭)

--Appletrees (talk) 07:06, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I was asking if this term is used in China. I'm pretty sure that "sacrificial ritual" goes all the way back to the Shang Dynasty. Badagnani (talk) 07:08, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

These Korean terms are confusing me, so if you want to add them under the Korea sections of Death anniversary or Ancestor worship, you should do it. Badagnani (talk) 07:09, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I understand that. I don't even know all about these complex ceremonies. Because the eldest people like grandma and grandfa mostly lead the ceremonies so I don't know much of information regarding that. I'll or some Korean'll do that in future. --Appletrees (talk) 07:13, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

You will undoubtedly be that person in some years. Badagnani (talk) 07:14, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

命日 is also found in Chinese. See [1]

Bathrobe (talk) 01:42, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

And according to this definition, 忌日 applies both to the birthday and deathday of an ancestor [2]. That is, both are days on which a descendant should observe “忌”.

Bathrobe (talk) 01:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Changes in Korean section

Could the editor explain changes like these before they're made, or in the edit summary? Badagnani (talk) 06:55, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

First off, there is miscommunication between us and I gave you a couple of wrong information yesterday because I'm not familiar with jerye. According to several sources, charye(차례) is a simpler ceremony held in the morning on myeongjeol(명절, traditional holidays like Chuseok추석, Seolnal설날) that any other among jerye(제례). Strictly speaking, charye is not an anniversary for ancerstors' deathday or birthday. Gije(기제) is a service to cherish the memory of the deceased ancestors on their deathday. Jesa(제사) is to say like every act held for jerye(제례) which are very formal term.

Regarding the removal of heotjesabap, it is a kind of bibimbap originating from a "fake" jesa. In old days, food like jeon(전, bindaetteok is one of jeon), jeok(적) were special dishes when people had janchi(잔치, feast, banquet) or jerye, or another special occasions. Therefore some yangban(gentlemen or aristocrats) who wanted to eat the special food made a fake jerye. That seems weird in the present, but Korea was strict Confucian country and they highly regarded manners from Confucianism and practiced them. --Appletrees (talk) 10:20, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, good info. Just keep in anything that seems related to this concept, then. Badagnani (talk) 16:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Death anniversaries in Western/Christian traditions?

The anniversary of a person's death is often celebrated in Western countries, so why does this article refer only to those death anniversaries celebrated by Asian cultures. In Ireland, family members often come together on the anniversary of one of the family member's death. For example, brothers and sisters will often meet on the anniversaries of their parents' deaths. This is often accompanied by a church remembrance mass, followed by a get-together dinner and then maybe a night out in the local pub. Ga2re2t (talk) 11:14, 28 February 2008 (UTC)