Talk:Death (personification)
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The article Memitim was nominated for deletion. The debate was closed on May 10, 2008 with a consensus to merge the content into Death (personification). If the merger is not completed promptly, Memitim might be re-nominated for deletion.
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Any idea where/when the "classic" robe and sycthe visage of the Grim Reaper originates?
[edit] Pearl Jam "Do The Evolution"
I added a small part in the "Music" section about death's personification on Pearl Jam's video. I hope it's relevant enough to be kept. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.152.83.92 (talk) 02:22, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Page with Grim Reapers around the world
I give the suggestion for create a page with all the characters based on the Grim Reaper in the media (movies, animes, video games, etc..).
[edit] Linguistic issue
'"While in Germanic folklore, including English, Death is male (der Tod), in Latin folklore it is female (la muerte, la mort)."'
The above seems to be a misinterpretation of [grammatical gender]. Obviously, Death is masculine in German and feminine in Romance languages, but that has no relationship to actual gender. I have never seen a traditional depiction of Death as a woman. He is generally either understood to be male or an asexual spirit.Ollock 22:35, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Internet Gamers?
I deleted this because it seems irrelevant and of no real interest to anyone:
"Many internet gamers have donned the name Grim Reaper but the most notworth of these goes by the name =URX= Grim Reaper or, as his teammates know him, Grimmage. He is a most respected and feared Medal of Honour player who sometimes disguises himself under names such as Farmer Grim or Gribbet."
- Ha. That piece of info applies to all of about .1% of internet gamers anyway, probably. Beast Love
It's asserted "He is portrayed in the Bible as Azrael, the Angel of death. "
Not so for at least most bibles. Azrael may figure in the Book of Tobit, but for most people that would be non-scriptural. I just can't locate Tobit right now to be sure, but the assertion should be modified and clarified (e.g. He is portrayed in the Book of Tobit, a book of the Catholic Bible, as Azrael, the Angel of Death). (if that is indeed true) -- Someone else 09:45 Mar 26, 2003 (UTC)
Azrael is not named in the bible or the quran ~ his name was associated to the "Angel of Death" later on. Neither Azrael or the Angel of Death are named in the Book of Tobit. That angel was Raphael. Amen to the Internet for allowing people easy access to inspect documents and dispute bad information!
What are "poop dances"? Mick 21:06 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)
- Anonymous vandalism. "popular poop dances" used to say "popular culture", and now does again. Thank you for pointing that out. — Paul A 01:21 13 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I thought that was an odd term I wasn't familiar with, Paul. lol! Mick 05:51 13 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Unless vehement objection is made, in the near future I propose to move this page to Death (personification), and to merge here the text now found at Angel of death, which deals with Death in Jewish legend. Neither the four horsemen of the Apocalypse, nor for some, characters from the book of Tobit, are properly "fictional characters." -- Smerdis of Tlön 16:39, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I listed this article on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates, and although there was an objection, there were some useful comments:
I could've sworn I saw this featured already, but I don't see it in the logs. Although it covers a large topic, it is an interesting and detailed article. Wmahan. 03:54, 2004 Apr 29 (UTC)
- Good article, but in the early sections many characters in people's names and references appear as open squares in my browser (MS IE 6.0.2800.1106) -- possible Hebrew characters? Anyway, they need to be cleared up before I could support the article unreservedly. Arwel 10:47, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- I see how those characters could be a problem. What would clearing them up entail? It looks like that section was copied straight from the Jewish Encyclopedia, specifically [1]. So unfortunately I don't think I can get in touch with the original author. Wmahan. 15:41, 2004 Apr 29 (UTC)
Object: I believe this is a very myopic look at personified death with overplayed Christian history, which is certainly rich, while ignoring vast amounts of culture outside of Europe. What about the very famous, (West and East) dialogue between Death and a young teenager in the Katha Upanishad in which Death instructs the boy as to life, liberation, and conduct? Perhaps even some glancing mentions of African indigenous religions, which surely have personified death (if not then mention) this. I don't support this because its title implies a broad look at Death (personified) whereas it only really deals with one single culture of the world. --LordSuryaofShropshire 16:26, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)
- That's a good point. I suppose more should be added about Death in non-Western culture. Wmahan. 22:16, 2004 Apr 29 (UTC)
Wmahan. 02:51, 2004 Apr 30 (UTC)
It would be great if a picture of Neil Gaiman's Death character could be added because... well, it would be all trendy and stuff, and also appropriate, and also she's fairly cute. Her and her Ankh serve as Memento Mori for me. The catch is the legal thing--pictures of the NG Death character abound on the Internet, but is are they really legal what with the copyright thing?
Wyrd-- http://wyrd_sane.livejournal.com
[edit] Death in Isphahan
Should there be a mention of the Arabic story of the guy that meets Death at Isphahan? It's in Jorge Luis Borges and mayb in the Arabian Nights.
Any idea where/when the "classic" robe and sycthe visage of the Grim Reaper originates?
[edit] Egyptian mythology
I think it is a good idea to insert some information about ancient Egyptian deities of death because perhaps no religeon or mythology is as rich as this one re death.Can some one do this ?
[edit] Grim reaper Flower
I was wondering if anyone had some information on the flower that represents death/ The Grim Reapper? There is a picture of a flower on the picture in the article, but i also believe there is some relevant story behind it so if i knew what the flower was i might be able to shine some light upon it. (7121989 21:52, 17 November 2005 (UTC))
Would that be Deadly Nightshade, or Belladonna as I should properly call it. Tell me if I'm completely wrong, as there's a huge chance of it, seeing as I'm 11. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.32.69.137 (talk) 18:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Family Guy
I'm surprised that nobody has added Death from Family Guy. It would add some humor to this article.
That guys a wimp! no one wants to relat the king of evil or death to a wimp Deathdealer 01:03, 16 February 2006 (UTC)deathdealer
Having that at the beginning of the article is silly and does not introduce it correctly, so I removed it. Sloverlord 00:15, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
- Having it at all is a disgrace. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 00:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Well somebody put it in properly, albeit not in any great detail. In fact, a lot of the cartoon appearances Death's made appear to have been condensed into one paragraph. Frankly, that isn't good enough.
And Haizum, just because you don't like it doesn't invalidate it in any way. Wikipedia is about being informative, not cowtowing to personal preference.EnerJolt 20:09, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Death from Family Gy would make an excellent little blurb in the trivia section or "in media".
-G
[edit] Vandals
Someone changed The biblical Book of Job (xxxiii. 22) uses the general term "destroyer" ("memitim"), which tradition has identified with "destroying angels" ("mal'ake Kabbalah") and Prov. xvi. 14 uses the term the "angels of death" ("mal'ake ha-mawet").
to
The biblical Book of Job (xxxiii. 22) uses the general term "destroyer" ("memitim"), which tradition has identified with "destroying angels" ("mal'ake Kabbalah") and Prov. xvi. 14 uses the term the "Chicken Pot Pie" ("mal'ake ha-mawet").
Im changing it back
Fictional Character
This page introduces the Angel of Death as a fictional character. Many of your religious readers would contend this...
[edit] Image
I had to delete the image that was here previously because an improper use of a fair use image. I replaced it with Image:The death.png from Commons but it's kind of a wimpy, jokey looking Death. If anyone can find a good scary Death which is free use, please replace this. Thanks. howcheng {chat} 07:30, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Some Changes I Suggest
This is the first time I have read this article and perhaps I missed something earlier, but it seems to me that there is significant content missing from it.
I note that throughout this article there was little mention of Death as personified in Christianity, especially as depicted in the Book of Revelation. "And I saw, and behold, a pale horse, and it's rider's name was Death and Hades followed him and they were given power over a fourth of the earth, to kill with word and famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth." (Revelation RSV, 7:8)
Later, after the return of Christ, Death is judged. "And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; (Revelation RSV, 20:13-14) Note how in these verses, there is a distinction between Death as an entity (a proper noun) and death as a state of being.
There is no mention that in Catholicism, the archangel Michael is considered the angel of death. This is explicitly stated in the wikipedia entry on Michael the Archangel. This clearly contradicts the statement early on in this article that Azrael is the angel of death. I do not know which entry is correct but it looks like something must be changed.
I make these comments not to say that the Christian view should necessarily be represented more. I understand that an exhaustive explanation of of every religion's depiction of Death is untenable, but this article introduces the Hebrew version of the angel of the death as Azrael and says, "In the Bible, death is viewed under form of an angel sent from God, a being deprived of all voluntary power. On some occasions this described in terms fitting Azrael, and on others as fitting Samael." From what I can see, this is not wholly correct, for the Bible also in Revelation makes no reference to Azrael (as far as I can see) or Samael but instead as described earlier. I think it is misleading to say that death in the bible is exclusively Azrael. Perhaps there should be a distinction made between Old Testament and New Testament instead of "the Bible" or, better I think, an explanation of the Christian view of death's personification should be included. It seems a bit "Hebrew-centric" right now.
I included the portion on Paradise Lost because that is one of the most famous personifications of death in English literature and I felt it enhanced this article.
I am not an expert on this subject so I do not think I could do justice to it. The author of this article seems quite knowledgable about the subject matter and the text is clear to read. co94 March 19, 2006
[edit] Grim reaper
I have moved the page back from "The Grim Reaper". If you wish to move this page to "Grim Reaper", please justify your reasoning here. Thanks! Isopropyl 14:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Soul Calibur III...?
Soul Calibur III video game (not officially in the game, but can be made in the character creation mode of the game) Well using that logic, we could put something similar in articles about Santa Claus, the President of the United Stated, and Mr Potato Head. You can make pretty much anyone using the character creation mode of any game. I think this should be removed. Squirminator2k 12:08, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] An issue
In the introductory part of this article it is stated that "because the reality of death has had a substantial influence on the human psyche and the development of civilization as a whole, the personification of Death as a living, sentient entity is a concept that has existed in all (my italics) known societies since the beginnings of recorded history."
Can we be absolutely certain that the personification of Death "has existed in all known societies since the beginnings of recorded history?" To me, this may seen to be more of a presumptiom.
Thoughts?
- Heh, I was just about to comment on that. Clearly there must be exceptions—the Pirahã people for one, I'd wager. —Muke Tever talk
Consider it changed. I used "many" instead of "all". I'd think most of us can concur upon the idea of it being a frequent occurrance, but it can hardly be seen among all societies.
[edit] Suggestions for Changes
There should be a disambiguation page for "Angel of the Lord," which currently redirects here. That angel is presented in many other roles, not just Death (in fact, the Bible never, unless I'm forgetting something, refers to the Angel of the Lord as the Angel of Death, although the Angel of Yahweh sometimes is pictured in a killing role). I won't make it myself, though.
Christianity's viewpoint on this matter isn't represented very much at all. Jewish views on the matter have four sections (which should really all be under "In Judaism," perhaps with additional sub-sections to avoid the section being too long), but Jewish views don't match Christian ones exactly, especially with all the Talmud, Targum, midrashim, etc. references. Also, the section "Death and Satan" mentions Satan once, in the first sentence, and then continues in Jewish traditions regarding the Angel of Death - none of which are obviously connected to Satan. I commend the author, though, as they are obviously extremely knowledge in Jewish literature, but some of it seems rather unfocused. I won't change any content, but I will reorganize it, placing all the sections under "In Judaism"; as it is, the fourth section's title "In Judaism" is rather redundant. After the Jewish section, and before the Muslim one, I'll discuss Christian views of personified Death. In discussing Catholic traditions, I'll move the section on "In Mexico" to the Christian section.
In addition, I'm no expert on Hinduism, but I'd imagine a Hindu would think it offensive to label his religion "Hindu Mythology." It seems to me that that section should be included under the religion heading, although Yama is not an angel... I'll leave other editors to resolve this problem.
Thank you, and great work on the article besides!
-- Ummm... why is there a redirect? --
Why is there a redirect here from "angel of the lord"? The term "angel of the lord" is used occasionally in judeo-christian texts and several denominations teach that when an angel is referred to as the "angel of the lord" it indicates the presence of a pre-incarnate christ. There /IS/ justification for a link at the top of a page about the "angel of the lord" explaining the "sometimes depicted as" note from the entry above this one. I don't see /ANY/ reason to have a redirect here. It is also worth noting that come groups that are or have been associated with the LDS have a totally different view of the "angel of the lord".
This may have already been mentioned, but when the article states ""The destroyer" kills the first-born of the Egyptians" it is incorrect. G-d is the one who struck down the first born sons. It says so all through out Exodus. For example, Exodus xii. 20 29 "And at midnight Yhwh (G-d without the vowels) struck down all first-born..." The fact that it was G-d who did this is a large part of the signifigance. This task was so important that G-d did not delegate it to an angel.
[edit] What happened here?
Where did the list of uses of Death in modern cuture go? I found it very informative and useful. Now it's very incomplete. I would enjoy it restored to its former glory.
[edit] Way too much listing
The "Death in popular culture" list is way too big and makes up about half of this article. I suggest that it is cut down significantly or made into its own article.
Yah, I vote for it to be made into its own article.
- Agreed. This way we can merge Shinigami with it, or at least give a good overlook.--SidiLemine 11:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Split This Article
If there is no objection by next week, I will move the pop refs to Personifications of Death in popular fiction.--SidiLemine 10:55, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- Well, what are you waiting for?--Boffob 23:33, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi,
Just curious about the "Death (angels) in religion" section. It makes some bold claims (anyone interested in religion, dark skin, born on the first day of 1993, etc. could be death) without any citation whatsoever. For that matter, it makes no reference to what "prophecy" it refers to in the first place. Who made this prophecy? When? If this is under religions, what religion is this associated with? The whole section just seems....well, to be quite frank, sloppy and possibley full of BS. Just wanted to bring this up; its a great article otherwise.
Jesse
[edit] where should i put this text? i removed it from "death as a fictional character cuz these are not works of fiction
The character of Death is typically depicted in the West as wearing a dark hooded cloak and wielding a scythe. In many icons of the resurrection of Jesus, Death is portrayed as a skeleton who is bound hand and foot lying amid other bones under the earth. In Eastern Orthodox theology, Death is one of humanity's three enemies; the other two are sin and the Devil. This figure of Death is also known as the Grim Reaper. Death, in this guise, appears also on one of the Tarot arcana. While in Germanic folklore, including English, Death is male (der Tod), in Latin folklore it is female (la muerte, la mort). In Mexico, death is sometimes referred to as La Calaca, a skull-like character that comes and takes people away when they die. Blueaster 04:04, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
-
- The concept of death as an actual figure is mythology —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.22.166.183 (talk) 10:20, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The Grim Reaper
"Death is a part of life, Death is inevetible, if you embrace death he will accept you" Quote from: K.M.PMA 13:24, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Death; Grim Reaper; Angel of Death
Grim comes in MANY forms as everyone knows. But what no one wants to see is that the legand of this creature is mocked day after day. At first many cultures thaught of it as the Angel of Death and others think of it as a cartoon for easily amused Americans amusment. I think that the Grim Reaper is a symbol of the journy into the after life, scary but harmless. You have this scary figure leading you into the after life but watching over you making sure you make it. Death isn't scary, it's just new. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.132.11.154 (talk) 06:49, 22 April 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Death (angels) in Judaism
I was wondering if someone could possibly expand, or elaborate on, or even provide a link to an explanation of, the format of the citations used throughout this section (e.g. "'Ab. Zarah 20b", "Tan. on Gen. xxxix. 1."). They seem to be citations of standard, well-known works, but their existence in this form throughout renders them impenetrable to non-experts. There are also some citations that refer in an abbreviated way to named authors, but these authors and their works are not then found in the Bibliography.216.105.214.147 03:11, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] What ??
"The characters of Father Time and the Grim Reaper frequently overlap, leading to the common portrayal of the Grim Reaper brandishing a scythe.[citation needed]"
I don't get it. If the grim reaper came to have a scythe as a [i]result[/i] of being itentified with Chronos, how is it that he was a "reaper" in the first place? Citation needed indeed. Sounds like someone just made this one up.
Paul Murray 04:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Fatalism
I've cleaned up the Fatalism section ever so slightly, but it still needs fleshing out. Someone who knows something about the subject should expand this section. Filam3nt 03:10, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Popular culture
This section is absolutely enormous and largely unnecessary. We could generalize personifications, such as "humorous" or "satirical" or "serious", but we don't need to list stuff like "In [medium], Death makes an appearance and [performs action]"--Wafulz 18:18, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
- Concur. I have accordingly trimmed these sections (with a scythe, perhaps); what means are iconic depictions with some discussion (or room for discussion, as in the case of Dickens). Mackensen (talk) 14:13, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Death: Movies: Bill & Ted
i corrected a couple things. bill and ted beat death at table football, not table hockey. and death tells them about challenging him to a contest during their first encounter so i switched the sentences to agree with this.
[edit] Death in TV
Why isn't there a section for Death in TV in the Popular Cultures section. I'm sure that Death has appeared in many different cartoons and TV shows like Family Guy and the Simpsons.Wild ste 10:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Modern Interpretation?
Wouldn't it make sense to put up a picture that resembles that one? I mean, it's common knowledge that everyone imagines something resembling that when they think of The Grim Reaper, so it makes sense to add one somewhere in the article. Pluvia 05:25, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
- If you can find a free image, then sure.-Wafulz 22:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Death.jpg
Image:Death.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 06:52, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Vandal?
death is usually given the name, the "Grim Reaper", otherwise known as "Aaron Williams" - Since when did death go by the name of "Aaron Williams"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.226.37.104 (talk) 18:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
lol —Preceding unsigned comment added by Six string brad (talk • contribs) 00:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Games: FF???
Hey, I know it's a complete opinion, but couldn't the game section for Final Fantasy explain the symblism between Sephiroth and Death? Does this part of the article really need to be that strict? I mean, come on people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Six string brad (talk • contribs) 00:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Games:Legacy of Kain series?
The protago nist ofthe Legacy of Kain series, Raziel is a Grim Reaper of sorts —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alwayssummerdays (talk • contribs) 21:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Only eyes can be seen
The phrase "Usually when portrayed in the black-hooded gown, only his eyes can be seen." is completely untrue. In almost every picture of Death, it's either seen from the side, or has a skull under the hood. Speaking from personal experience, of course. 68.230.161.164 (talk) 22:36, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Here's one you forgot...
I saw this Wiki entry, called "Thanatos". Greek mythology, personification of Death and Mortality. In the highest of ironies, he's immortal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanatos
72.192.59.3 (talk) 00:03, 23 February 2008 (UTC)GOF
