Talk:Day of the Dead
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[edit] Neopagan Samhain
Would it be possible to add a section about the Neopagan festival of Samhain?
It should be stated that; there is no hard evidence for a pre-christian Celtic equivalent of the day of the dead, although some speculate that it may be the case. Another scenario is possible, which is the introduction of aspects of the Day of the Dead into modern halloween and that the practices have been gradually imported from America to the UK. The Irish name for November is Samhain and the customs associated with the Neopagan festival cannot be traced back to pre-christian times. The Day of the Dead is most likely to be the influence, for the contemporary Neopagan festival. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.92.40.49 (talk) 08:34, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Move to Día de los Muertos?
Shouldn't this page be at "Día de los Muertos" with "Day of the Dead" redirecting there? I think most English speakers who know of the event understand the Spanish name. Marnanel 14:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- Why? This is the English side of Wikipedia. Latin America calls New York "Nuevo York" and that is not the name of the city/state (and there are countless other examples). Are speakers of English to be expected to take on a greater burden of political correctness than any other language? Mensch 07:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
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- I don't see what political correctness had to do with it. New York has a sizeable English-speaking population, so it's reasonable to call it "New York" in English; Día de los Muertos is primarily a Spanish-speaking event. Marnanel 15:20, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
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- I like "Day of the Dead." It's not difficult to understand, and a simple translation.翔太 「Shouta:talk」 17:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
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- I'm not strongly opposed to the move, but I don't see any particularly compelling reasons for it, either. This is the English Wikipedia, so we should probably stick to translated names when they are commonly used. It also strikes me that, while those who refer to it as "Día de los Muertos" will almost certainly also know it as "Day of the Dead", there are those who know it as "Day of the Dead" but are unfamiliar with "Día de los Muertos" (I was talking to one yesterday). Sxeptomaniac 21:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- The question, though, is is the English translation of Dia de los Muertos more commonly used? A case could certainly be made for, say, Oktoberfest. I doubt anyone would argue that we should house the article at Octoberfest because it's the English Wikipedia and that's the Anglicianized spelling, because there's no doubt that Oktoberfest more commonly used. But can the same strong case be made for Day of the Dead versus Dia de los Muertos? This may ultimately be an unanswerable question, because most newspaper articles mention both the Mexican and English version, by way of explanation.
- Hmm. Well, a cursory Googling shows 3.9 million hits for "Day of the Dead" [1] versus 1.9 million for "Dia de los Muertos" [2]. Given this, probably, absent more compelling evidence, it should be left as it is. — e. ripley\talk 21:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
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- How many of those hits were for Day of the Dead (film) or its upcoming remake, though? —Angr 08:02, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
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- I was thinking about that, too, so I tried adding "holiday Mexico" and got 291 thousand for "Day of the Dead"[3] and 151 thousand for "Dia de los Muertos"[4]. Sxeptomaniac 20:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
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- I am all for using the local term instead of the translation... when it makes sense to do so. In this case, I lean towards keeping it under "Day of the Dead." There is, for example, the fact that in Mexico itself "Día de los Muertos" is not the only or even the most common term among people who actually celebrate the holiday (as opposed to schoolkids who learn about it in class, given that for many years the holiday was celebrated more in the countryside than in the cities).
- First off, we are talking about two days, not one (All Saints/Todos Santos plus All Souls/Fieles Difuntos), so one often hears "Días de los Muertos" (in the plural). Second, "Muertos" sounds a little brusque, so many people use the name of the second day, "Fieles Difuntos" or "Dia de los Difuntos," instead. (This is popular speech, not the stuff that children are taught in schools nowadays, so of course these terms barely register on Google searches.) The most common term is simply "el 2 de noviembre." Given all this, I don't see a problem with using the English term. -Potosino 01:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Does not originate soely from Mexico
The article states that the holiday originates from Mexico, but this holiday has been celebrated by indigenous cultures throughout mesoamerica and south america: the Quichua in Ecuador, the Mayans in both modern Mexico and central america, as well as the aztecs in central mexico, with of course different variations in each place. [User:66.108.225.149|66.108.225.149]] 03:15, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
- If you have information (with references/sources) that would be an interesting addition to this article.LAVisitor1 00:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
The connections to the Aztecs and other Indian groups are tenuous at best. It was celebrated in Spain at the time of the Spanish colonization of Mexico in almost exactly the same form it is celebrated today. Its popularity as a cultural marvel arose due to the influence of the German Jewish art critic Paul Westheim, who had an enormous influence over people like Octavio Paz and Diego Rivera, and who brought the importance of this holiday to their attention. In his book "La Calavera", he traces the roots of the holiday to both their Indian and their European antecedants. In terms of the fascination with skulls and skeletons, there is plenty of material from Prehispanic Mexico that might be examined, but it did not have much to do with the Day of the Dead itself. Most of the attempts to force this paradigm are based on wishful thinking.
It is interesting that this paradigm (that this is an Indian tradition), although it is widely accepted as fact in the US (thanks to the prolifetion of US-based dillettante writers) is not at all accepted in Mexico. Most Mexicans see it as a Catholic Holiday, because that is what it is, and that is what it always has been. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.65.156.86 (talk) 05:30, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
This article as written today is seriously misleading All Saints Day and All Souls Days are major festivities of the Catholic Church. The Latin name is "Commemoratio omnium Fidelium Defunctorum" (Day of the Dead, in Latin)--- this is conmemorated worldwide everywhere there are Catholics. The fact that Catholic Mexicans happen to call it in Spanish "dia de los muertos" does not make it any more "Mexican" than "French", who call it... you guessed... "day of the dead" in French. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.13.6.71 (talk) 05:43, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Puzzling Text
I am a bit confused about some text:
Some Mexicans feel that death is a special occasion, but with elements like water, earth, fire and air of celebration because the soul is passing into another life.
I know that water, earth, fire and air are the traditional elements, but I think the word "elements" in the first part of this sentence is used in a different sense. So, I am removing the whole confused mid-section, to restore some coherence. If I am missing something here, please feel free to correct me, but it appears the sentence was mangled by someone who didn't comprehend the original intent of the sentence. 76.100.205.82 20:52, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
- I agree. That sentence looks like a case of "too many cooks ruin the broth." I can't parse it either. --Jaysweet 20:57, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
- Good catch.I suspect it was a subtle vandalism insertion that everyone just missed at first. This page does seem to be one of those targeted by vandals, especially with the holiday approaching. Sχeptomaniacχαιρετε 21:28, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Wtf
Why in god's name is this page protected? I wanted to add a reference to the Venture Bros episode Dia de Los Dangerous! and Rusty's hilariously culturally ignorant line about "that crazy dead-people Christmas you people celebrate" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.21.221 (talk) 20:25, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
- Too much vandalism. If you don't feel like registering, I think the article will survive without that pop culture reference for a couple of weeks. Sχeptomaniacχαιρετε 15:47, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- I think someone should have tried taking the vandalism off the page before they decided to protect it. Luosiji 16:38, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- If you look at the article history, that's exactly what I did. The most recent piece of vandalism was by a logged-in user, which semi-protection doesn't stop. Sχeptomaniacχαιρετε 17:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
There's good reason to control this page. Here's an example of text that needs to be removed from the site ASAP under Mexico - (Copy of text of vandalism removed, as includes what is probably a real person's name) so vandalism seems a problem. This is the first time I have come across it. Since the page is protected, can a moderator help? Then remove my message which by keeping it on the internet only continues the vandal's goal. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.164.171.159 (talk) 16:39, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- That particular piece of vandalism was only up for literally one minute. Since it's already taken care of, I'm removing the copy of the vandalism from the comment here, since it includes what I assume is a real person's name. Sχeptomaniacχαιρετε 17:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
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- As far as the semi-protection, there is an unusually large amount vandalism on this page for some reason. I haven't quite figured out why, but it is one of the more vandalized pages on my watchlist. Go figure. --Jaysweet 17:12, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Organization
I'm curious to wonder whether the part 1.2 Beliefs should be a separate heading like 1 Beliefs, 2 Observation in Mexico etc. because it doesn't completlly fall under the Observation in Mexico category.Janus8463 04:54, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] IP request to remove vandalism
Could someone remove the vandalism in the second section? Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.188.255.26 (talk) 17:38, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Could you please be more specific? I don't see any vandalism at the moment, but I haven't gone over the article with a fine-toothed comb either... --Jaysweet 17:48, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] categories
Am I the only one who finds it odd that this is under both religious and secular holidays? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.138.5.199 (talk) 16:07, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Questionable paragraph from opening.
I cut the following paragraph from the introduction, and bring it here for discussion:
- The traditional mood for this holiday is bright with emphasis on celebrating and honouring the lives of the dead. This is because they think of The Day of the Dead as the continuation of life. They believe that death is not the end, but the beginning of a new stage in life. These people are usually Christians of Native American descent whose ancestors introduced indigenous ideas of life after death.
First and foremost, there are no references for the assertions made in this paragraph. Secondly, the tone is not encyclopaedic, with statements like "they think" and "they believe" this or that, without specifying who "they" are. Overall, the tone is simplistic, turning a complex mythology into the equivalent of a junior high essay. I do not believe the article is any the worse without it. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 18:54, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "Similar celebrations"
I think that the discussions of "similar" festivals of the dead, such as those in Japan and China, should be split off into a separate article. The current article should discuss only the "Day of the Dead" with origins in Christianity, specifically Catholicism. Short paragraphs on supposedly similar celebrations, the origins of which are in completely different belief systems, and which are celebrated at other times of the year, is a disservice. There are as many differences as there are similarities. Any thoughts? ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 16:14, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, they already are the subject of separate articles ... I think that it's appropriate and interesting to have a one or two sentence description of similar celebrations here, with links to the main articles (as now). IMHO, a brief "compare and contrast" section here helps put the Mexican observances in perspective. EspanaViva 19:14, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well then, some sort of brief explanatory paragraph is needed at the head of the "similar celebrations" subsection. As it is now, we have only a list of countries and no explanatory text. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 19:19, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- Sure - no problem! EspanaViva 18:48, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you! ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 05:12, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
- Sure - no problem! EspanaViva 18:48, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well then, some sort of brief explanatory paragraph is needed at the head of the "similar celebrations" subsection. As it is now, we have only a list of countries and no explanatory text. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 19:19, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Incorrect statement
"Scholars trace the origins of the modern holiday to indigenous observances dating back thousands of years, and to an Aztec festival dedicated to a goddess called Mictecacihuatl (known in English as Catrina and also known as "The Lady of the Dead")."
Catrina is a female skeleton created by Jose Guadalupe Posada, it is a satirical image poking fun at the elite of the era. It has also been reproduced in one of Diego Rivera's murals.
Mictecacihuatl is mistress to Mictlantecuhtli Aztec God of the dead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.160.171.253 (talk • contribs) (05:03, 17 January 2008)
- Please place your comments at the bottom the page where they belong, and use proper talk page formatting in future. Thank you.
- If there is information in the article that is incorrect, and you have references that indicate this, please change the article. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 17:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
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- Well, according to the article Catrina, José Guadalupe Posada's creation, the calavera de la catrina (the "calavera of the female dandy") has come to be associated with the Day of the Dead and Mictecacihuatl, in popular Mexican culture. They both are female figures with skeleton faces, and while they do come from very different sources, I can see how the modern name could become associated with the ancient (roughly similar) figure. If you have any sources indicating that these Day of the Dead figures are not sometimes referred to as "Catrina," that would be helpful to know.
[edit] Lebanese celebration
I am moving this statement here because it is unsourced, and entering the name given in search engines does not provide any sources. If you have any sources for this information, please re-post with the source citation.
- "In Lebanon, people visit cemeteries where they pray for their dead relatives. The holiday in Lebanon also occurs on November 2 and is known as Yom el Maouta. The holiday is celebrated by Catholics as well as Greek and Armenian Orthodox." EspanaViva 08:12, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Use of image from Disneyland
This image (Image:1664289779 83b06140e3.jpg) appears to be a Disneyland display about this holiday. I'm not sure that it really should appear in this article about a folk holiday. Comments? EspanaViva 13:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'm neutral regarding using the image. If it's made clear that it's a commercial representation of the holiday, rather than a traditional one, I think it's acceptable to use it. Still, the image itself is rather dark, so it's not really that useful, anyway. Sχeptomaniacχαιρετε 16:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
