Talk:David Paterson

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This page is about an active politician who is running for office, is in office and campaigning for re-election, or is involved in some current political conflict or controversy.

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[edit] New daughter articles

I chopped up a lot of the opinion, minor incidents, potentially POV items, superfluous background info, biographies of relatives etc., into daughter articles, per the work on Eliot Spitzer. This leaves the article at 30k, which should provide ample room to add info about his role as Governor. MrPrada (talk) 05:16, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Electoral history of David Paterson

I added the merge tags, I think this article would benefit from the other article's information, and that the existence of the other article by itself is superfluous. Jacotto (talk) 05:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep (no merge), the guy was in the state leg. for 20 years, elected every two years, there's room to grow in the new daughter article Electoral history of David Paterson. And this main article will certainly grow greatly now that he has almost 3 years as governor coming up. - Colfer2 (talk) 05:45, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Keep (no merge). I would have to agree, I think the electoral history sections really clutter some of the political biographies, there is precedent with major figures for having it in a daughter article. MrPrada (talk) 05:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


Sounds good to me, I'll remove the tags. Jacotto (talk) 06:02, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hempstead

Copy of post at User talk:MrPrada#Hempstead (Paterson):

Hempstead (village), New York is not the same as Town of Hempstead, New York. The former is within the latter; the intros to both articles explain the difference. The "town" of Hempstead in this case functions much like a county would most other places in the country.
The school systems in that area are not county-wide or even town-wide. They are typically individual, relatively small fiefdoms. I grew up in the town, but not village, of Hempstead; my school system had 7 schools: 1 high school, 2 middle, and 4 elementary. Over 20 years later, it is the same.
I have issues with both of those articles in terms of factual accuracy, but the basic geopolitical framework they lay out is correct. The idea that Paterson might be the first disabled student in Hempstead schools is not so far-fetched. I'm not saying it is true, and I'm not saying it isn't...and I saw your note that the cite didn't support it, so it is appropriate to at least ask for a reference. I just thought I'd provide a little background info on why it might actually be true. (Haven't checked for cites, but someone did provide more info, I think.)
Regards -
Isaacsf (talk) 12:30, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Copied here by - Colfer2 (talk) 14:06, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

So which is it, town or village? -Colfer2 (talk) 14:33, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
The schools are in the Village of Hempstead, the smaller unit. Here's its site, but there's very little about the schools. There is enough to confirm there's only one high school in the Village of Hempstead. They do claim to be the largest village in NY, with 60,000 people, for whatever that is worth. Isaacsf (talk) 14:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Hmm. Regular google is not promising, only reprints of this wikipedia article[1], and the news archive does not find anything to support it either[2]. However I was able to find one recent story from Christian Science Monitor (reprinted in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle) which supports the claim[3], but I'm not sure if the author got their information from Wikipedia as it is uncited. Perhaps someone could place a call into the school? I know it would violate WP:OR, but we could cite it using the Christian science monitor article and and know its accurate by verifying it ourselves. MrPrada (talk) 19:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
On a separate issue, I think we should mention integration in the early life section and expand on it in detail in the early life article. MrPrada (talk) 19:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
My own feeling is that Wikipedia is about accuracy and verifiability rather than about quantity and immediacy. My vote is to remove it if we don't have a cite. I thought one of the refs did say it, but by now...I can't remember. I'll try to check them again later. Isaacsf (talk) 20:20, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bullet list versus sub-section headings

There seems to be a disagreement over formatting of the sub-sections in the Lieutenant Governor of New York section of the article, which contains three sub-sections. Recent edits have posited two possibilities for heading the subsections: bullet list and level 4 (i.e. ====) headings. In an attempt to avoid an edit war, I suggest we resolve this through discussion.

It has been suggested that Wikipedia:MOS#Bulleted and numbered lists asserts that a bullet list is preferred. I would like to disagree with that assertion, using the criteria in that section:

  • "Do not use lists if a passage reads easily using plain paragraphs." The article information is already in paragraph form, and reads easily. A bullet is not needed.
  • "All elements in a list should use the same grammatical form and should be consistently either complete sentences or sentence fragments." The three subsections in the list are very different. The first contains one paragraph; the second, two paragraphs; the third, one paragraph.

The bullet list also causes a format irregularity with indentation. If the list is kept, then each paragraph should be similarly indented to the same level as the bullet using the ":" character.

It has also been suggested that these three subsections clutter the ToC. The ToC already has two sub-sections at the same level in the following Governorship section. And the ToC is considered small if compared to several other articles. Further, since the Personal revelations sub-section is the exact same size as two of the bulleted sections, shouldn't it then be a bullet too? And don't those two sub-sections also clutter the ToC?

In the interest of consistency, readability and understanding, I propose that these three bullet sections be changed to level 4 subsections. Comments are appreciated. I will check back in a couple of days, see what the consensus is, and take appropriate action (if needed). Thanks. Truthanado (talk) 13:38, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree the WP:MOS supports subheadings for this instead of bullets. It's too bad because the subheading levels below 3 all look the same. -Colfer2 (talk) 15:38, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
My assertion of WP:MOS#Bulleted and numbered lists deals more with the existing prose of the Lieutenant Governor of New York section. The text that exists covers three very small portions of Paterson's work as Lieutenant Governor. My concern was that by displaying them in the TOC, it would provide undue weight, making it seem as though voting rights, stem cell research, and the bias lawsuit were somehow major incidents.
If we listed every political position of Paterson, it would clutter the ToC, because he has a long legislative career and has worked hard on certain issues at different times. I believe this would make the ToC confusing if they were listed throughout the chronological subsections. I believe that the first two belong in the Lt. Governor section belong in their a subsection, "political positions", which really should eventually end up in their own article (Political positions of Barack Obama). Of course there isn't enough there to warrant a split at this time.
A new reader might come to the article, see them in the ToC, and assume that these are hallmark issues for Paterson, or that the lawsuit was a defining incident, which is why I believe WP:Article structure would call for a list over subsections at this time. Of course if the consensus is for subheadings, we should go that route. MrPrada (talk) 16:49, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm also going to have to agree with the list format; having looked over several revisions of the article, the version that seemed most clear to me on the content in question was the 'bullet' format. Jacotto (talk) 17:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Since it's basically even right now, would anyone object to WP:3O? Unless I hear otherwise, I'll put a query up tomorrow. MrPrada (talk) 00:57, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

From 3O: I just made a bold edit to the page demonstrating another option for presenting the information. If I'm understanding this discussion correctly, there is a concern about cluttering the table of contents, and also a concern about the inappropriate use of bullets. I believe this shows a compromise that may be acceptable. If not, please revert it. Here's the diff. —BradV 21:58, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Approve the change. Solves all concerns: clean ToC, nice separation, correct indenting. Truthanado (talk) 00:27, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Approve, I concur with Truthanado. MrPrada (talk) 00:32, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] First [fill-in-the-blank]

I removed a reference to first Caribbean-American because:

  • It was not cited (at least not directly)
  • He was born in Brooklyn
  • Wikipedia is not a trivia list
  • Enough is enough! We went back and forth for quite a while on whether he was the first or second blind governor in the nation, when in point of fact it really is meaningless. The fact we know, and which can be accurately cited, is that he's blind. That's enough, if it's noteworthy at all. Another fact we know is that he was born in Brooklyn. That one or both of his parents was born elsewhere doesn't make him Caribbean-American, and besides, it doesn't matter.

Where do such superlatives stop? Are we going to list him as the first governor of NY born in 1954? Are we going to find out how many governors are the same height as he is, and how many are taller or shorter? His shoe size? Let's be reasonable, and have cites for information that's added. And - just because you read it somewhere else doesn't mean it has to be in Wikipedia too.

Isaacsf (talk) 19:00, 29 March 2008 (UTC) (see WP:NOT)

Well said. Truthanado (talk) 23:46, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Your opinion may be right, but it is an opinion. The 'superlatives' are notable, since they are widely noted. 'Wikipedia is not a depiction of life as it should be, but as it is.' Has anybody stated that as a policy? :) That said, refs showing whether he & his family consider themselves Caribbean- or African-American would be good, and notable vis-a-vis the West Indian parade etc. I guess. I don't know how that Caribbean cat works. What are the criteria? As for Grenadian- and Jamaican-, the press shows it is a big deal in those countries, or at least in Grenada, not sure if that matters. -Colfer2 (talk) 12:17, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Caribbean-American

It is insulting to ridicule recognition of his ethnicity as trivia. People that are American-born are still recognized by their ethnicity, viz.:

The Caribbean-American community is a distinct community, as distinct from African-American community. There are these markers:

  • residential concentration in specific neighborhoods of Brooklyn, southern Queens and certain towns of Nassau County.
  • concentration in specific schools
  • intermarriage within the West Indian community
  • maintenance of specific cuisine in restaurants and food stores in said residential concentration neighborhoods.
  • concentration in certain Christian denominations associated with the British West Indian archipelago:
    • Roman Catholicism, a denomination that generally has a more diminished presence in the general African-American community
    • Anglicanism/ Episcopalianism (as distinct from the African-Methodist-Episcopal church of the broader African-American community) Dogru144 (talk) 14:35, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


'Ridicule' is a strong word. That being a Caribbean-American is a distinction is not in question. Far more important is whether (and, if so, where) it belongs in a Wikipedia article. The questions that apply here are:
  • Does Paterson identify himself that way? Some of the people on the list above consider themselves as members of those ethnic groups and that they are part of what makes them who they are, such as Dukakis and Ferraro. Is that the case with Paterson?
  • Is it something that has been cited reliably, or just blogged somewhere?
  • Is it appropriate for an encyclopedia?
It is important to note that if people from various countries in the Caribbean are excited about having a son of someone native to their country rise to a position of prominence in the US, then it is notable on the page associated with that country (and even then, only if it meets WP:VER). That doesn't make it notable on Paterson's page.
I don't see the fact that he is the first African-American governor of NY as worthy of inclusion in the lead-in either. He does not appear to consider his ethnicity (whether skin color or countries where his parents were born) as defining parts of his career and notability. It does appear, however, that he considers his achievements as a legally-blind person are notable, and that his identification with others in a similar situation is something that is important to him.
However, even though I don't see his skin color as so important, news media seem to think so, and consensus here seems to be in favor of it as well. I'm not sure consensus is on the side of noting that he's Caribbean-American, and then there's the whole bit I raised above about how tall he is, what year he was born...these superlatives really don't add to the article.
Having said all that, I'm not claiming there's no place in the article for noting his Caribbean roots. I most certainly think it doesn't belong in the lead-in, as it is not among the things he is notable for. That is not ridiculing it by any means. Isaacsf (talk) 16:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
I really have no opinion as to whether it merits inclusion or not, I would tend to err on the side that this is trivia. However, per the New York Times:

As a result they are emerging as a distinct political group within the larger African-American political spectrum, and politicians, including some West Indians, are courting their votes, with many expected to show up at today's West Indian-American Day Parade in Brooklyn. Political Awareness "Empowerment of the West Indian in New York is the wave of the future," said David A. Paterson, a State Senator from Harlem who is a candidate for Public Advocate. "It's a community that is now in the initial stage of political awareness." So far, that consciousness has been manifested in the election of Mr. Paterson, who is of Grenadian and Jamaican ancestry, to the State Senate in 1985, and the elections of Jamaican-born Una Clarke, to the City Council in 1991 and Nick Perry, also of Jamaican ancestry, to the State Assembly in 1992. It is also evident in this year's City Council race in the 45th District in Flatbush, Brooklyn, with two of the three candidates, Lloyd Henry and Colin Moore, tracing their ancestry to the West Indies.

MrPrada (talk) 16:17, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
So, if a politician says they favor women's rights, does that make them a woman? Does it mean that they consider women's rights as a defining characteristic of their life, or even of their political career? For the NYT to quote Paterson doing what - by all accounts - he does very well (which is to include all persons in the political process) is not the same as saying he considers himself a West Indian (or anything else). Isaacsf (talk) 16:35, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Heh, I tend to agree with you, which is why I support bullets over subheadings above—however if you go on to read the rest of the article it does make a compelling statement about West Indian heritage and awareness. MrPrada (talk) 16:52, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
If "the Caribbean-American community is a distinct community, as distinct from African-American community" as noted above, then why is he tagged as being both Caribbean-American and African-American? I prefer not to categorize a person with any ethnic label unless there are verifiable sources that the individual uses the category himself. Why not just call him Governor Paterson and ignore ethnicity. From what I have heard in his recent speeches, he might prefer it that way. Truthanado (talk) 19:34, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
He can be from both, i.e. mother/father. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:04, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I listed this discussion at WP:3O. MrPrada (talk) 02:12, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Third opinion

I am responding to a request for a third opinion.

As per reliable sources, notability, and the subject himself, it is appropriate that Patterson is linked in the African American governors, Caribbean-Americans, Grenadian-Americans and Jamaican American politicians categories. From a neutral point of view, there is nothing inherently trivial about any of them. — Athaenara ✉ 14:14, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment: obviously, my observation is specifically about the categories. Is there still a dispute about whether the article gives undue weight to any ethnic or cultural factors? — Athaenara ✉ 14:22, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think that is the question. There have been several edits and reverts about whether or not he is the first Caribbean-American governor, and whether or not it belongs in the lead-in. (My own opinion is that it does not.) I agree it could be mentioned in the text, but not the lead-in, and I also agree that inclusion in the categories is appropriate. Isaacsf (talk) 14:52, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
No harm is done whether it is in the introduction, in later paragraphs, or in both. It's good not to edit war about such things :-) — Athaenara ✉ 19:24, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Inaugural quote

This quote has been removed (and reverted) at least twice. Let's develop some consensus on whether it belongs or not.

It seems to me that if that's how he chose to open his governorship, and in the absence of anything more to say at the moment, it's a reasonable quote to include. While I agree it's probably not much to hang a legacy on, he's only been in office for two weeks, so, it seems ok for now. Isaacsf (talk) 20:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

It looks kind of ridculous. A quote by him isn't required in his Wikipedia article. Let's be a patient with his legacy, it doens't have to be done right away. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:11, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
The quote was the most memorable part of the speech. I think it should stay, if we can find a sound clip. MrPrada (talk) 00:58, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Agreed on being patient with his legacy. But it is properly cited and another editor took the time to do so. Even though I agree it isn't a "legacy" type of quote, is that a reason to take it out? Isaacsf (talk) 02:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Keep would be my vote. But we should rewrite the "First Day" section to explain that Spitzer's resignation was sudden, and Paterson took over after a tumultuous six (or whatever) days of uncertainty at the top of state gov't, in the midst of a leg. session, state budget crisis (or whatever). I think the quote is fine, but the list of attendees is way too long, if needed at all. Mayor of Buffalo? How about Yonkers & Rochester? -Colfer2 (talk) 04:42, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm...mayors of Yonkers and Rochester...were they there? ;-) Isaacsf (talk) 05:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Not only was the Democratic mayor of Rochester, Robert Duffy, there, the Republican Monroe County Executive, Maggie Brooks, was also there; Rochester is in Monroe County. I don't think that's worth mentioning, nor is the laundry list of attendees worth mentioning. I wouldn't object to anyone cleaning that up. Truthanado (talk) 00:03, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Apparently you couldn't tell I had my tongue firmly planted in my cheek with that question. :-) Isaacsf (talk) 00:08, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Buffalo is a major city, almost as big as St. Louis or Cincinatti, which is the reason I threw him in there. Plus, he is one of Paterson's closest friends/allies. MrPrada (talk) 03:17, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

To me, the quote looks truly ridiculous. After becoming governor, he announces that he is now the governor. No useful information is shared in the quote, and including it makes it appear as if we, the editors, are laughing along with a sort of lame, and actually not even memorable, joke. A lot of people read these pages, so let's not immortalize this as anything even remotely close to an important utterance. Adlerschloß (talk) 17:39, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. I found the quote to be forceful, powerful, and profoundly historic. I still believe it would be augmented by the audio. MrPrada (talk) 18:15, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Can you please explain that line of thinking? I can't relate to this viewpoint at all. Or is my sarcasm detector just not working today? Adlerschloß (talk) 19:19, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you mean when you say sarcasm detector. In any case, I think it was a historic moment for Paterson to redefine himself. He also self-references it quite a bit. Just today:
Mr. Burkhardt: “So what’s been your biggest surprise so far as governor?”
Mr. Paterson: “The biggest surprise is that I am governor!”[4]
I think if you saw the original speech, you'd agree it was a powerful moment. MrPrada (talk) 22:12, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Executive Chamber of David Paterson

I built a daughter article similar to Executive Chamber of Eliot Spitzer, my reasoning for leaving the secretaries etc. blank is described on the talk page. Also, a [recent communique from the Governor's office does not list any staff or contact information for those positions. I've also begun work on staff bios (Charles O'Byrne, Jon R. Cohen, James Yates) if anyone would like to collaborate, there is more then enough work to go around. MrPrada (talk) 20:58, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Further reasoning for keeping most of the vacancies as TBD at [5]. "Several top officials in the Spitzer administration, some of whom were connected to political scandals that crippled the governor’s agenda, are calling it quits, an official familiar with the internal moves said Wednesday. William Howard, Spitzer’s former public security adviser who was accused of helping orchestrate a plot to discredit Senate Republican leader Joseph Bruno, has announced his resignation. The other officials include: Lloyd Constantine, senior adviser; Rich Baum, the high-level adviser job titled secretary to the governor; Marlene Turner, Spitzer’s chief of staff; Peter Pope, policy adviser; Marty Mack, director of intergovernmental affairs; counsel David Nocenti; and Christine Anderson, Spitzer’s press secretary." MrPrada (talk) 18:34, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Correct. WP:NOT#NEWS, but Wikinews is. — Athaenara ✉ 19:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New lead photo by Shankbone

There are five photos to choose from at Commons:Category:David Paterson. --David Shankbone 18:09, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

The one on the article now is the best, I think. Nicely done. Ford MF (talk) 19:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. Isaacsf (talk) 19:31, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I prefer the original one from the outdoor speech, which is now used further down the page. But I guess the new one is slightly more current. Of the new batch, the one without the Amex logo, #5, would be my preference. -Colfer2 (talk) 04:21, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Recent info

Does anyone think recent health news should be added to this article? I find it particularly fascinating, but perhaps it is not an important? --Davemarshall04 (talk) 19:46, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] External link to ZotFish?

Hi, I was wondering if it would be appropriate for someone to add an external link to the ZotFish page for David Paterson?. I believe it's of genuine interest to readers, but I want to make sure I follow Wikipedia policy and not post it myself -- more info on the site can be found at Mashable. - Zotman (talk) 03:57, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Not seeing it myself. Rebecca (talk) 04:32, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
The site violates WP:ELNO, and does not enhance the article. It should not be added. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 15:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)