Talk:David Lloyd George

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Contents

[edit] Old talk

This bit:

Quote:"We have to reserve the right to bomb the niggers."

...seems to be loitering around rather disconnectedly at the end of the article. A Google search [1] brings up a few variant versions of this quote; does anybody know the correct text and the exact source? It seems to be from DLG's diary, and possibly relates to the Disarmament Conference of 1932. I don't particularly want to take it out, but putting it in context would probably cast a little more light on the man. --rbrwr

H.A.L. Fisher - President of the Board of Education was an Historian who wrote a 2 volume History of Europe. From my contemporary POV - a racist -- but after glancing at the above entry,maybe just a man of his time and place. - Sparky

[edit] Peerage title

Was his peerage title "Earl Lloyd George of Dwyfor"? I thought it was just "Earl of Dwyfor". Timrollpickering

I suspect you're right - the form "Lord x of y" is usually associated with modern life peerages, on top of which his surname would presumably have to be hyphenated to be used in a title. sjorford →•← 14:02, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
That's what the "of Dwyfor" bit is for - to allow the lack of a hyphen. (Also, Earl Temple of Stowe, Marquess Curzon of Kedleston, Earl Alexander of Tunis, Earl Mountbatten of Burma, Earl Alexander of Hillsborough, Earl Baldwin of Bewdley, etc.) Proteus (Talk) 08:33, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
"Lloyd George" was hyphenated in the peerage, according dictionaries which I have read. Anglius
"Dictionaries"? I'd rather trust Burke's and Cracroft's Peerages, both of which give it without a hyphen. Proteus (Talk) 08:33, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Image

As I just noticed that the older image formerly illustrating this article, and then for a while used in other articles, at present seems to be an orphan. I'm putting it here just so anyone who might have use for another image of Lloyd George on Wikipedia may be made aware of it. -- Infrogmation 18:51, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think this one should be reinstated in the article(s). It's a nicer pic, plus it has specific copyright/sourcing information. –Hajor 18:55, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Image:LloydGeorge.JPG

[edit] DLlG a Welsh Nationalist

In the article it notes that Lloyd George was bitterly oposed to Welsh Nationalism. This is incorrect - you should read the history of 'Cymru Fydd' a national movement lead by Lloyd George and Tom Ellis.

[edit] Sale of Titles

To whom did he "sell" titles? William Waldorf Astor, Sir William Maxwell Aitken, or Sir Rufus Isaacs? I read that King George V objected to Sir William Aitken's elevation to the baronage. Could that have been the reason? Anglius None of the above. Sir Max Aitkin became Lord Beaverbrook in 1916, the King did indeed object to his elevation but Beaverbrook paid no money, rather it was in the hope of buying his newspapers support that D LG sought his elevation, (see A J P Taylor's Beaverbrook pp 125-127 (Chatto &Unwin)) Sir Rufus Isaacs became Baron Reading when made Lord Chief Justice in 1914, for the people to whom honours were sold see my edit on the article Backnumber1662

[edit] On L.G's comment "We reserve the right to bomb the niggers"

David Lloyd George's comment, "We reserve the right to bomb the niggers", is cited in N. Chomsky's "Hegemony or Survival - America's Quest for Global Dominance" page 161 (Penguin, 2004), or from its original source, i.e. that quoted by Chomsky, V. G. Kiernan's "European Empires from Conquest to Collapse" (Fontana, 1982). SamWilson 19:56, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

________________________________________________ DLG & Greece Should some mention be made of Lloyd George's support for a creation of a greater Hellic state which included most of Turkey Agean coast and Thace. Reading from Patrick Kinloss's biograph on Ataturk and other sources it would seem that the Greek invasion was in part started due to the support of DLG himself?

Solomon

[edit] Qutoe from Lloyd George on Wilson and Clemencau

Could anyone tell me when and where answered Lloyd George to the question on how he did on the conferences? Where he compared Wilson to Jesus and Clemenceau to Napoleon? Thank you very much!

[edit] No mention of Suez

I found it quite strange that there is no mention of the Suez crises, the events that led to his downfall as a politician.--87.210.137.93 18:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


The Suez Crisis brought down Sir Anthony Eden, not Lloyd George.

[edit] Lloyd George Knew My Father ?

Shouldn't there be some mention of the song "Lloyd George Knew My Father" - even if we don't mention My Father Knew Lloyd George ? -- Beardo 20:38, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Party Leader 1926-31

The section covering this part of his life is very brief and does not mention his role in the development of the Liberal's Yellow Book and subsequent program for government "We Can Conquer Unemployment" which dominated debate in the 1929 election. However, it goes into some detail of Trade Union activity from 1916-18 which seems out of place in thi article. (Graemp 22:09, 6 March 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Squeeze the german lemon quote

Added link to Eric Campbell Geddes, the author of that quote. Cite is located on his page.


[edit] Hitler was a fan

Article states:"Despite this embarrassment, however, as the 1930s progressed Lloyd George became more clear-eyed about the German threat and joined Winston Churchill, among others, in fighting the government's policy of appeasement."

Searching Goebbels diary for something else I noticed numerous entries praising the work and political stature of Lloyd George. Obviously since its Goebbels his interest is in the media so I think there is even more to this than mentioned below

  • 9 October 1939 - Lloyd George has written an article for Hearst in which he recommends serious consideration of Hitler's proposals. [Footnoted as: On 29 September 1939, after the fall of Warsaw, Germany and the Soviet Union had issued a joint appeal to the world to recognise the new status quo in Poland. Hitler made a formal peace offer to Britain and France in a speech to the Reichstag on 6 October. Lloyd George, who had already pleaded in the House of Commons that Britain 'should not come to a hurried conclusion' if Germany submitted detailed peace proposals, went further in an article that also appeared in Beaverbrook's Sunday Express on 8 October. He wrote: 'If we antagonise Russia by our reply to Hitler, we must face the stern prospect that an offensive and defensive alliance between Russia and Germany could not be overthrown by a three years' war. I dare not contemplate all the possibilities of such a tremendous combination of strength against us'. He pleaded for Roosevelt to act as honest broker in the setting up of a peace conference, since 'nothing would be lost, and everything might be gained, by such a conference'.]
  • 10 October 1939 - With the Führer. He welcomes Lloyd George's article, which was certainly a clever move. The man stands head and shoulders above the present crew of British politicians. He foresees the deep crisis of the Empire. Hence his plain speaking.
  • 16 October 1939 - Lloyd George has written another article in the Hearst press containing violent attacks on the British government. Very advantageous for us. I order it to be published without too much fuss, however, so as not to compromise L.G.

Also remarked on are Lloyd Georges attacks on Churchill in 1941 debates. Someone might want to go into this aspect of his career in a little more detail rather than skating over what he was doing during this time. Fluffy999 11:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I think more space ought to be given to wrong steps in Lloyd George's war management, including his false charges of war crimes against the Germans. E. P. 9:26, 21 May 2007


[edit] His pre-peerage surname

Was it simply George, or was it the unhyphenated double-barrel surname Lloyd George? I’ve never been entirely sure.

  • Case A (George): His mother’s maiden surname was Lloyd, so it may be that he was given the middle name Lloyd in her honour, and generally used his middle name rather than his first name David. Also, his daughter Megan was named “Megan Arvon George” (although she was later referred to as "Lady Megan Lloyd George"). These suggest his surname was George, although I’ve never heard him referred to as simply "George" (cf. Blair, Thatcher, Churchill et al).
  • Case B (Lloyd George): His first wife was not just Dame Margaret George but Dame Margaret Lloyd George. His son Gwilym Lloyd George is referred to as "Lloyd George" in our article on him ("Lloyd George was MP for Pembrokeshire …."). These suggests his surname was Lloyd George.

We read about relations between "Lloyd George and Winston Churchill", and also between "Lloyd George and Churchill". The former supports case A, but the latter supports case B.

I’m sure I’m not the only person who’s ever been confused about this. Can some kind soul come to my aid? JackofOz 06:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Lloyd George was his surname(s). He is listed as David Lloyd George in the Law Society Finals successful candidates list published in The Times, on 26 Nov 1881. He'd have been about 25 then. Mind you, things were more flexible then about what you called yourelf. The full name of this chap for instance was Leone Sextus Denys Oswolf Fraudati Filius Tollemache-Tollemache de Orellana Plantagenet Tollemache-Tollemache.
Roger 08:34, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, Roger. So, how does this explain his daughter Megan being named "Megan Arvon George", not "Megan Arvon Lloyd George"? -- JackofOz 13:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Maybe she wasn't officially called that ... The Times report of probate of Lloyd George's estate (Friday, Nov 09, 1945; pg. 2; Issue 50295; col G, Law Report, Nov. 8 High Court Of Justice, Probate, Divorce) calls her "Lady Megan Lloyd-George" and hyphenates it. Roger 13:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Ah yes, but see our article on her, which tells us that she started out as plain "Megan Arvon George", and only later became Lady Megan Lloyd George. I’ve done a bit of googling (here and here), and it seems that his family name was just George. His father and brother were both called William George. However, DLG himself preferred to use the unhyphenated double-barrelled surname Lloyd George, and hated being referred to as “Mr George”. His wife also took his surname Lloyd George, as did some of their children, but their daughter Megan seems to have been an exception, being simply Megan George (initially anyway). Talk about confusing! JackofOz 13:41, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm. Thing is in those days you could call yourself pretty much what you liked. L-G had been calling himself Lloyd-George since at least 1881 (see Law Society above). It would surprise me if she turned out to be George and not Lloyd George. Have you seen the birth certificate? If not, for a few quid, you can get a copy here Roger 14:42, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
A glance at the article suggests Lloyd George is a relatively typical case of a man whose primary male relative (his uncle) was on his mother's side. Most double barrelled surnames arose out of a desire to acknowledge and preserve the mother's family name.
Double barrelled surnames are also often inaccurately taken to be a sign of being amongst the upper classes and some people have not used their full surname or changed it - for instance Anthony Wedgwood Benn started using the moniker Tony Benn when he started moving to the left of the Labour Party. Often the double barrelled form appears and disappears depending on the context - every reference I've seen to Megan's political career calls her "Megan Lloyd George" (sometimes "Lady Megan Lloyd George" after 1945) right from her first entry into parliament. Why she was just apparently just called "Megan Arvon George" at birth is a mystery - it's not mentioned in her DNB article (which uses the spelling "Arfon") and I've removed it from her article as unsourced. Timrollpickering 19:30, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DLG on Russia and Poland

There is some useful material at RFH (Britain and the war between Poland and Russia) which could be adapted into this article. In particular see Lloyd George and Poland, 1919-20 (a paper by Norman Davies).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  23:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Query

Did he like pie? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.103.87 (talk) 15:12, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

No, but he knew my father. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.134.22.105 (talk) 23:46, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm being serious, I need to know if he liked pie or not. If so, what flavour was his favourite? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.103.87 (talk) 17:42, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 6 Citations..?

The "bomb niggers" quote being used by multiple politicians has 6 quotes. Is that really neccesary? It seems very unprofessional.