Talk:David Horowitz Freedom Center
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[edit] Proposal to delete this article
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This article was nominated for deletion on February 9 2007. The result of the discussion was keep. |
[edit] Discover The Network(s) redirected here
The "Discover the Networks" wiki page was just deleted without redirection, so I've put it in the context of the other DHFC programs to allow a meaningful redirect. Andyvphil 02:32, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
- This is really confusing - trying to find information on discover the networks, and got redirected here, and all the content seems to have vanished. I had to mess around and find a history page
- http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Discover_the_Networks&oldid=100858961 - none of that content is here. I am not sure why this page was deleted - should this stuff be added back into this article??--Boscobiscotti 23:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Discover The Network(s)
It doesn't just list left-wing individuals and organizations. It also lists libertarians, paleoconservatives, and generally anyone Horowitz thinks is criticizing Bush. Check out his DTN entry on Lew Rockwell or Karen Kwiatkowski. Harvestdancer 21:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
- I haven't (yet) examined the entries you mention but I've modified the text to reflect H's explanation that he includes allies of the left wing, e.g. Jihadists as allies of left-wing "anti-imperialism". There was a DTN article (not a very good one, but a platform where distictions like this could have been made without overweighting DHFC)[2] that someone put into AfD as "non-notable" and an admin decided (wrongly, I think) that that the consensus was indeed to delete, leaving an orphaned redirect or two and no "Go" target.[3][4]So I added a quick-and-dirty list of DHFC's "programs" here... Thanks for your correction. Andyvphil 23:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
- The current wording is inadequate. Nobody thinks libertarians are left-wing. Libertarians are included in the network. The description makes it sound as if those in the network are left wing. Harvestdancer 15:49, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- Harvestdancer, with your latest insertion of "libertarians" as a target of DTN you write, "Kwiatowski AND Rockwell, because neither are conservative - that's the yardstick, whether or not they are conservative." And in your comment above, "...generally anyone Horowitz thinks is criticizing Bush." This is simply wrong. The DTN article on LewRockwell.com (Rockwell himself doesn't actually get an entry)[5] makes it clear that Lew Rockwell makes the list not because he is radical, anti-conservative, or a Bush critic, but because he criticizes the American government as "facist", i.e. evil in a way that is very similar to the perspective of, say, Michael Moore. And Kwiatowski, who is closely associated with Rockwell, is quoted as seeing the Iraq intervention as "imperialist".[6] These two make the list because DTN sees them as sharing the left's "anti-American" perspective, and far from viewng libertarians as the enemy, DTN is at pains to describe Rockwell several times as "self styled libertarian" or similar. By comparison, the Objectivist Yaron Brook, who is radical, anti-conservative, and anti-Bush, does not make the list. In fact none of the individuals pictured on the jump page [7] are libertarians, and Horowitz's explanaion of his categories [8] makes no mention of libertarians. Indeed, of the 1186 individual entries [9]...do ANY other than Kwiatowski style themselves libertarians? Thus your insertion of "libertarians" is insufficiently precise and gives undue weight to two entries which are there, as I said, NOT because of their libertarianism. Andyvphil 15:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, he describes those libertarians who have aroused his ire as "self styled" libertarians, as if to imply that Lew Rockwell isn't really a libertarian! He's trying to imply that those libertarians that make the list are actually liberals or left wingers when they clearly aren't. Just because DTN isn't NPOV doesn't mean that this rather unusual fact should be left out of this article. Harvestdancer 16:47, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- Just to make it clear what we're taking about, the DTN description after your last edit reads:
- "*Discover the Networks...- A database of organizations and "activists for leftwing agendas and causes -- egalitarians, socialists, and opponents of American 'imperialism'",[4] with a Java applet to display their interconnections in graphic form. This description can include non-leftwing allies of the left, e.g. Jihadists, certain anti-Iraq War activists, libertarians, etc."
- ...and what I'm trying to point out is that Kwiatowski and Rockwell are included because they are the catgegory "certain anti-Iraq War activists", namely those who oppose the Iraq war in the role of "opponents of American 'imperialism'", not because of their libertarianism, "self-styled" or not. I would argue that Rockwell is referred to as a "self-styled" libertarian not because of some analysis of his libertarianism which excludes him from the category, but precisely to indicate that his position on the Iraq war is idiosyncratic among libertarians and that libertarians are not generally thought to be members of the Networks. I don't think this is significant enough to mention in a short description of DTN, but what is really unacceptable is that the article imply DTN targets libertarians in general, which I've pointed out before is simply not true. In the interests of comity I'm trying to get you to make the edit, but I won't leave the sentence in its current form if you don't change it. Andyvphil 00:15, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, Mr. Rockwell's position on the Iraq war is shared by a majority of libertarians. It's not idiosyncratic, it's representative. DTN doesn't know enough libertarians to target them, but Rockwell and Kwiatowski have been enough of an annoyance to Horowitz to get noticed. Harvestdancer 18:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Another libertarian, of sorts, listed on DTN: Justin Raimondo.[10] Associated with Murray Rothbard. But seen by DTN as "facist", not libertarian. Just so you know I'm keeping an open mind on this question, not merely polemicising... Andyvphil 11:55, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, Mr. Rockwell's position on the Iraq war is shared by a majority of libertarians. It's not idiosyncratic, it's representative. DTN doesn't know enough libertarians to target them, but Rockwell and Kwiatowski have been enough of an annoyance to Horowitz to get noticed. Harvestdancer 18:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Just to make it clear what we're taking about, the DTN description after your last edit reads:
- Yes, he describes those libertarians who have aroused his ire as "self styled" libertarians, as if to imply that Lew Rockwell isn't really a libertarian! He's trying to imply that those libertarians that make the list are actually liberals or left wingers when they clearly aren't. Just because DTN isn't NPOV doesn't mean that this rather unusual fact should be left out of this article. Harvestdancer 16:47, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- Harvestdancer, with your latest insertion of "libertarians" as a target of DTN you write, "Kwiatowski AND Rockwell, because neither are conservative - that's the yardstick, whether or not they are conservative." And in your comment above, "...generally anyone Horowitz thinks is criticizing Bush." This is simply wrong. The DTN article on LewRockwell.com (Rockwell himself doesn't actually get an entry)[5] makes it clear that Lew Rockwell makes the list not because he is radical, anti-conservative, or a Bush critic, but because he criticizes the American government as "facist", i.e. evil in a way that is very similar to the perspective of, say, Michael Moore. And Kwiatowski, who is closely associated with Rockwell, is quoted as seeing the Iraq intervention as "imperialist".[6] These two make the list because DTN sees them as sharing the left's "anti-American" perspective, and far from viewng libertarians as the enemy, DTN is at pains to describe Rockwell several times as "self styled libertarian" or similar. By comparison, the Objectivist Yaron Brook, who is radical, anti-conservative, and anti-Bush, does not make the list. In fact none of the individuals pictured on the jump page [7] are libertarians, and Horowitz's explanaion of his categories [8] makes no mention of libertarians. Indeed, of the 1186 individual entries [9]...do ANY other than Kwiatowski style themselves libertarians? Thus your insertion of "libertarians" is insufficiently precise and gives undue weight to two entries which are there, as I said, NOT because of their libertarianism. Andyvphil 15:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- The current wording is inadequate. Nobody thinks libertarians are left-wing. Libertarians are included in the network. The description makes it sound as if those in the network are left wing. Harvestdancer 15:49, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] true position of the center
There is information to be added, and it will be. The publications and press releases of this organization has in turn been used as a RS for a number of other questioned WP articles & this is currently being discussed on WP:RS. DGG 07:01, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Stuff to add
Dropping these here from my !vote on the AfD. Will parse later unless someone beats me to it.
- Outside source about the Freedom Center, [11] quite biased, but should work.
- Story about the Freedom Center backed incident in Pennsylvania [12].
- State Police Network run down
ofon the Freedom Center [13]. - AFT article criticizing Freedom Center's funding [14].
TuscanTucson News article [15].
--NuclearZer0 21:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
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- Sounded from your mention that the DHFC had a run-in with the State Police, but I see it's just a directory entry. Minimal contribution to notability, but despite Hipocrite and Disavian that was never in serious doubt. Someone had to point that out, though, and thanks for chiming in (before I did). On the DTN AfD I felt very much like a one man band. I was right, but it didn't look good. If the closing Admin is unreasonable nothing will help except taking it to the next level (maybe). I didn't know why the Italians took a special interest in DHFC but now that I'm looking at source I see it's a misspelling. I've taken the liberty of strikeouts -- if that's not ok, undo. No time for more now. Andyvphil 23:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Parking a cite, here:[16]. A mention of CSPC imprint "Second Thoughts Books" seems worth digging up info on. Maybe other things. Andyvphil 13:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
