Talk:David G. Ludwig murders

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[edit] Kara Borden Date Of Birth

Please note that the date of birth has been on this article since November 2005. If someone now wishes to revert it please follow the dispute resolution process. Tommypowell 01:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kara Borden Dispute

It is clear that there is a content dispute regarding the DoB in this article. I have requested page protection until disputes can be resolved. Any objections to informal mediation? Navou banter / review me 22:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


What value is it to know her birthday? Steve Dufour 19:03, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Birth date should be given as per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies). --Yamla 19:07, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
There are additional rules for living persons. Steve Dufour 19:25, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Could you cite applicable policy so that we know where you are coming from? Also if someone could briefly summarize the conflict would be helpful also. Regards, Navou banter / review me 19:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kara Borden Question of Style

Are there any public sources for the inclusion of the DoB? Navou banter / review me 19:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kara Borden WP:BLP

I have undertaken to remove the date of birth per our biographies of living persons policy that exact dates of birth of living people be used only with extreme caution and only in cases of clear notability. To wit, When in doubt about the notability of the person in question, or if the subject of a biography complains about the publication of his or her date of birth, err on the side of caution and simply list the year of birth rather than the exact date. This person is an extremely minor figure whose life has been entangled in a tragic murder case and thus been thrust unwillingly into the spotlight. The date should only be included after extremely careful consideration of the issues involved. FCYTravis 22:56, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Kara Borden Dispute resolution

Per FCYTravis (talk · contribs), this is no longer a dispute resolution issue as s/he has edited over the protected version per policy concerns. Any objections to unprotection? Navou banter / review me 02:43, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

You knew the policy before this started, as did Tommypowell (one of the edit war-ers). (I don't think you participated in this one, but he definitely did.) It won't be unprotected until the users who were edit-warring have agreed on a solution (or one of them is blocked). Cbrown1023 talk 03:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Navou banter / review me 03:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

  • I would like to file complaints and dispute resolutions in this matter against FCYTravis for his unsupported edit over protection and Cbrown1023 for his repeated threats to block me for reposting deleted information which was on articles for 2 years without complaints. There is no policy barring birthdates for public figures who have been the subjects of massive international media coverage. Would someone tell me how to file complaints against these 2 users?Tommypowell 14:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • side note: Politely and without commenting on the editors, only the edits (I can not stress enough, this style is important) list at WP:ANI. After a day I am going to move these two messages to the archives. Navou banter / review me 14:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kara Borden Solutions

Does anyone have any proposed solutions? Navou banter / review me 14:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

  • I think the solution is within the BLP which clearly does not bar birthdates for "widely known people" where the date is "available to the public". Clearly here we are dealing with persons subject to massive international media coverage whose birthdates are readily available globally via a 10 second google search-mooting the BLP concern for "identity theft". End of story. The BLP makes no exceptions on the basis of age, alleged crime victim status or occupation. The "other camp" seems to be saying that any editor can arbitrarily remove birthdates from any article they want by stating "notability is in doubt" and threatening to block users who restore the information, no matter how well sourced. This seems to me a road Wikipedia doesn't want to be on. This is an encyclopedia not a privacy protection service. Going down this path would allow any user to take down any birthdate on any whim within the mind of that user. That is the death knell of an encyclopedia.Tommypowell 15:33, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
This is a valid point, can anyone address it? Also, feel free to propose other solutions. Navou banter / review me 16:54, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I do not see a reliable source for her birthday yet. Regardless of all else, could someone please provide one. Do not provide a primary source, messages on a bulletin board or a google search. Thanks. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • It was on the article for 2 years. Look in the edit section. 68.230.130.19 17:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)Tommy Powell
That was a google search that found a forum post. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Noooo-it is a newspaper article.Tommypowell 19:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
The domain name "www.google.com" does not belong to a newspaper. Link a newspaper article directly here. Thank you. Hipocrite - «Talk» 19:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
It is in the Lancaster New Era newspaper published in Lancaster, PA-November 22, 2005. You can sign up for the archives and read the whole article or click here-http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&safe=off&q=lancaster+new+era%22+kara+borden%22+ludwig+2+06+91&btnG=Search and look at the first result. If you question the source give specific language from the BLP using quotation marks. Tommypowell 20:27, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I purchased the article from their archives. It does not have her birthdate. Please donate $2.95 to the wikimedia foundation for decieving me. I will no longer engage in discussion with you untill confirmation of your donation is sent to my attention. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Here is another source-http://holidayresource.infoctionary.com/CALENDAR/DATE/2007-02-06 You claim to have purchased the article-post a link here and I will pay you the $2.95.68.230.130.19 20:36, 7 February 2007 (UTC)Tommypowell 20:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
The tenth paragraph reads, in totality, "A holster." You cannot read the full article without my login. Please send me confirmation of your donation to the Wikimedia Foundation. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
    • $2.95. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:47, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Discussion at WP:AN/I appears to be for enforcement of BLP for this instance. BLP overrides consensus. Navou banter / review me 00:30, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kara Borden Unprotect

I've requested that the article be unprotected. I don't see a problem since Tommypowell has been blcoked. Aside from occasional support from Navou no one else really wanted the birthday in the article, and Navou acknowledged that WP:BLP was more important than consensus in this instance. So if you object, comment here. Otherwise, we can unprotect and get back to editing. AniMate 02:00, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kara Borden Merge to David G. Ludwig

This article doesn't provide much (or any) more information than the article on the actual murderer, David G. Ludwig. I don't forsee any updates on Kara in the near future, and the details of the murders are already described at length on Ludwig's page. Let's merge these. Can I get some consensus?Athene cunicularia 20:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

This article should be merged per WP:PSEUDO policy: While she is notable only for the current thing, she doesn't get a biography, nor something which pretends to be one. I'm going to redirect this with David Ludwig by 8/10/07 unless there are objections.Athene cunicularia 20:23, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Works for me! --Bossi (talk • gallery • contrib) 21:12, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Anyone else consent?Athene cunicularia 15:21, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] David G. Ludwig Picture please

I don't know the copyright issues involved, but this article would surely be improved by a picture of the subject.

Also, can it really be that a collection of 50+ guns is considered normal? Good grief. Rast 13:34, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

If you read the article in Lancaster Online, this is exactly so. A picture would be helpful. --FourthAve 00:17, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
In any case, for 99 percent of the planet, it is not considered "normal", and other opinions need to be included. --Viriditas 10:20, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
The point is that in Lancaster, where events like this are unimaginable, a collection like this isn't extraordinary. Even the (former) Lancaster City mayor has a massive collection of Civil War cannons. For Lancaster, 54 guns is impressive, but not out of the ordinary. --TangentIdea 19:10, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't know the full story (I doubt anyone does at this point) but you must admit that there is a big difference between having a collection of Civil War antiques that would be difficult to setup and use in the heat of the moment, and having 50+ modern weapons in your house, especially in a house where minors are present. Do you know if these weapons were behind lock and key? --Viriditas 09:20, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I've uploaded a file I found on his online photo album. He claimed that he self-made the photo, and uploaded it with intent to share with others (or so one would assume) so I'd say it is fair use, but I'm not an expert at this thing (if you guys are, please tag it appropriately). In addition to the gun question, being a hunter, it isn't that unusual for a household to have many guns. Only a few I know have over 50, but it's not a big deal in terms of severity. Many hunters have large collections, and seeing that he was a hunter (and quite possibly his parents), I don't see anything abnormal about the statement. --Mrmiscellanious 03:20, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
The current statement, Local opinion regards a collection of this size to be normal, is true the way it stands. The point is not general opinion, just local opinion. --TangentIdea 05:14, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
"Truth" has nothing to do with it. It's either attributed, or it gets removed. --Viriditas 07:03, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I'll just remove that passage -- no comment on the collection either way. --TangentIdea 15:25, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Is it possible to get a more normal looking picture of Ludwig? Thanks. Rast 23:48, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

The problem is one of copyright. Almost all pictures of Ludwig would be protected by copyright. --Yamla 23:54, 16 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] David G. Ludwig is not a suspect since the home video has been shown.

Why he is called a suspect in the article? We saw the domestic terrorism home video and he voluntarily admitted in it. That is it. 195.70.48.245 08:59, 22 November 2005

No, that video was filmed far before this incident. While significant, it is not directly related, and is only circumstantial evidence. He did NOT admit to the crime yet. He is still legally considered a suspect. --TangentIdea 16:50, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Update: He has confessed to the murders of the Bordens while in custody. Putting it back now. The video is still unrelated. --TangentIdea 02:56, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
You waited eight hours to self-revert? Why did you revert my changes? --Viriditas 07:02, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Newspaper article that evening. Check the link I added to the info. --TangentIdea 15:20, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Well, until he actually admits his guilt in front of open court, he is still considered a suspect. Its just a legal technicality. Until the court process is over, he is a suspect, and should be called such. Putting it back in.--Azathar 09:08, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
He has confessed, but not plead guilty yet. So legally, he is still a "suspect" like you said, but he has confessed. --TangentIdea 03:21, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] David G. Ludwig Names.

Bias as bias, but I don't think we should call a murderer by his first name. What do you think? --VKokielov 21:36, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

He is still a youth. We had an edit conflict, but I saved my changes, which are reflected in the current version. The media is calling her Kara and not Kara Beth. Change them back if you wish. --FourthAve 21:56, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

We can call her whatever we need to...but to call him David? --VKokielov 01:27, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
He IS 18 now. "Ludwig" or "Mr. Ludwig" sounds appropriate. --TangentIdea 02:59, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] David G. Ludwig Media coverage

Soon enough, a separate section for this will be in order. I have no doubts that the broadcast networks already have hour-long programs on the subject in the works (Prime Time and the such), as well as the cable networks (American Justice, New Detectives) and the such, as well as Court TV. And most certainly there will be at least one made-for-TV movie, and probably more than that. There will be books too, a Truman Capote like In Cold Blood, or even something along the line of Theodore Dreiser's An American Tragedy, or for an opera by John Coolidge Adams or a Grand Guignol Broadway musical by Stephen Sondheim. Even a Michael Moore left wing satire, à la Bowling for Columbine. Or another kind of satire, Oliver Stone's Natural Born Killers. --FourthAve 07:01, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Kara does not have a younger sister. She IS the younger sister. 24.229.53.202 20:59, 27 March 2007 (UTC)BMV

[edit] David G. Ludwig Goth martyrs

A certain strain in American culture regards David a hero. I don't see any black lipstick on Kara, but yes, the idea that certain teens would build shrines to them makes US of A sense. --FourthAve 07:13, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] David G. Ludwig Disposition

A plea bargain is likely. Considering the confessions, the witnesses, and the large quantity of forensic evidence, the only hope of Ludwig's public defender is a negotiated plea. The death penalty would seem unlikely (does Lancaster County, Pennsylvania want to spend $2,000,000 to $4,000,000 to kill this man? Do they want to put the younger Borden children on the stand, and subject them to ruthless cross-examination?). David Ludwig will spend the rest of his productive life in prison.

  • As much as I agree with the paragraph, its very much suposition (See WWIN, personal opinion and not NPOV, and not appropriate to the article. As Such, I am removing it.--Azathar 09:16, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] David G. Ludwig myspace mirror needed

Ludwig's myspace page has been removed, either by myspace or by a friend of his who had the password. (already someone new has cybersquatted the url). I've removed the link to it. I'm sure his site was mirrored during the weeks after the crime, so anyone who knows of a mirror should add it.

http://www.myspace.com/haydren David Ludwig's MySpace <-- no good

Rast 03:11, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Please do not link to lampkeeper.com for a mirror for Ludwig's site. Lampkeeper4.252.75.6 04:52, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] David G. Ludwig photos

Image:ludwigcrop.jpg

Image:ludwig2.jpg

These photos of Ludwig predate the murders by about 1 year. He was much friendlier looking that the current topic picture shows. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kamk (talk • contribs) 20:35, 2 November 2007 (UTC)