Talk:David (Michelangelo)

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Contents

[edit] Old discussion

It may be taller if you measure from the ground to the top of the statue on its current base, but the height of the statue itself is given as 4.1 m in several Michaelangelo references I have. Noel 01:21, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Would I be wrong in my recollection that the statue was originally commissioned to be placed at the top of the cathedral of Florence (hence the skewed proportions)? Jongo 00:36, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Absolutely not. The lantern by Verocchio was already in place, aside from the cultural and liturgical impossibilities. --Wetman 6 July 2005 09:15 (UTC)
It's not clear, actually. (I'm using Baldini, Sculpture of Michelangelo as a source here.) The original 1463-64 work on the block (with Agostino di Duccio) did call for the figure to be placed "on one of the buttresses of the Cathedral". However, when Michelangelo started work on it, this book mentions no pre-fixed location; indeed, once it was done, a committee of Florentine artists was formed to decide where to put it. (Hibbard, Michaelangelo is in basic agreement with all this.) Noel (talk) 20:44, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

...the statue was originally intended to be placed on a church facade or high pedestal, or even the top of the Eiffel Towe... This can't be correct! Can anyone elaborate? Mikkel 17:07, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Vandalism. Rv'd. Noel (talk) 20:44, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"is widely considered to be a masterpiece " If we're really that culturally insecure, let's drop the somewhat faded term "masterpiece." --Wetman 6 July 2005 09:15 (UTC)

Citation for the new information regarding the origins of marble from which David was carved: http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/story/0,11711,1558304,00.html

It probably needs to be added as a citation to the article that is about to be published in Elsevier's Journal of Archaeological Science, as described in The Guardian.

[edit] David

This article doesn't list any references, so can anyone recommend a book on the David? I'm looking for something with a detailed discussion on the anatomy of the David as the "perfect male form", along with pictures from many different angles.

[edit] Name change

The title of this article is out of keeping with usual practice on Wikipedia - the norm for articles on works of art where the artist's name has to be specified is, to take one example, 'The Birth of Venus (Botticelli)', not 'Botticelli's Birth of Venus'. I don’t see why there should be a different rule for works by Michelangelo, and the “Michelangelo’s” prefix, although it works with the David and Pietà, doesn’t work at all with others - ‘’Michelangelo’s Crucifix’’ for instance. Would there be any objections if the title were changed to David (Michelangelo)? Ham 11:23, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I can't see how anyone can make that argument if they know how those works are commonly referred to in English-speaking countries. "Michelangelo's David" is a very common way to refer to that specific work of art. Agreed, most are not referred to that way, but THAT one IS. Check google hits for "Michelangelo's David" vs. "Botticelli's Birth of Venus". In other words, 'Michelangelo' wasn't in the front just because somebody made a mistake with a 'necessary' disambiguation--it's because that's the common name for the friggin work of art. This was an exception to the way other Michelangelo (and other artist's) works are titled because of common use, not some arbitrary blindly following a standard that doesn't apply. 24.17.48.241 10:12, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, "Michelangelo's David" is in common usage, far more so than "David (Michelangelo)". My main objection is that giving this article that title caused "Michelangelo's ____" to be the standard for Wikipedia articles on his other sculptures, which are not as familiar and therefore resulted in some strange article titles indeed. After changing those titles to something more sensible, it would have been unencyclopaedic to treat David as an exception, although I'm fully aware that in the public imagination it is considered something above and apart from other works by lesser artists. Regards, Ham 14:20, 15 February 2006 (UTC). And cheers to Sparkit for making the change.


[edit] Payment

Long time ago I have heard that Wool traders, which ordered this statue, came to see it when it was almost ready. They were so impressed by work of Michelangelo that they tripled Michelangelo's payment for the statue. I can not find now any information about this. If that is true, it would be a nice touch in the article.

[edit] Shattered Left Arm

According to The Agony and the Ecstasy (novel), Book 9 (The War), end of Chapter 3, during an attack on Florence (backed by the Pope to quell an attempt to restore the Republic of Florence) from the Duke of Urbino in 1525, the towns people were threw furniture upon the calvary. In the confusion, a wooden bench struck and snapped off the left arm of the David statue. The three detached pieces were kept in a chest in Cecchino Rossi's house. They must have be restored at a later date. [Close up of left arm.]


[edit] Fig Leaf

I have a book of Photographs from the late 19th century, which shows this statue with a leaf over his penis. Do you know if this was added for the photo, or was it permanently attached

I really doubt the book put it in there. It was probably attached for the whole censorship movement, then taken off when people realized that sex is not the enemy. --160.81.78.102 15:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe that when it was first made, the Florentine Republican government (specifically Piero Soderini) covered it with the fig leaf. At that time, Florentine society was heavily influenced by the puritanical teachings of Girolamo Savonarola, and they were fairly prudish in that regard. Eventually the fig leaf was taken down. I don't remember where I read this, but if anyone finds a source, it should be noted in the article. --DLandTALK 19:34, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I think I've read as much in Hibbert's book about the Medicis. I don't remember the title, and I don't have the book anymore. /roger.duprat.denmark —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.243.126.100 (talk) 16:13, 21 June 2007

Didn't the V&A have an exhibition some time ago consisting entirely of fig leaves that Victorians had put over the genitalia of numerous statues? I didn't see the exhibition but I did read a review of it in the paper at the time. I recall it was rather funny. --Oscar Bravo 11:50, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Viewing Angle

Does anyone have a full-body picture of David from Goliath's POV? A friend's art history teacher claims that David, as warrior, should be seen from this angle and that he's quite striking and scary. But all the power of the sculpture is taken away when viewing the sculpture from the angles of the photos in the article. Can anyone back this up? Is the art history teacher full of it?


No, that teacher is correct. You can see that warrior expression in a full front view of his face. I did a Google search of images under the phrase "Michelangelo's David" and found several head shots that showed changing expression from changing angles. The front view is surprisingly fierce.

A full-body frontal view, from Goliath's POV, is now available on my webpage at http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/david/David.htm . In order to obtain this view, you have to stand well back behind the column he is facing in the Galleria dell'Accademia, and use X-Ray vision to see through the column. Or else use Stanford's new ScanView software, which is what I did. Incidentally, I liked JoJan's photo of the copy outside the Palazzo Vecchio a lot better than the one that recently replaced it. I'm using JoJan's on my webpage. HuMcCulloch 15:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Skewed Proportions

Jong Wrote: Would I be wrong in my recollection that the statue was originally commissioned to be placed at the top of the cathedral of Florence (hence the skewed proportions)? Jongo 00:36, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)



The statue, by looking at David's HUGE head and hands and long legs, I feel with my exp as an artist, that Michelangelo had intended David to be viewed from ABOVE, perhaps from a gallery or balcony somewhere. Giving the viewer Goliath's point of view of the future king David.

viewing from above you wouldn't notice davids weirdly proportioned genitals, his hands would also look more proportionally correct.


btw has anyone noticed that the statue is circumsized? isn't that odd for a jewish king?

Can anyone explain the significance (if any) of the small penis? It seems to be an underground joke amongst non-art buffs that poor David is insufficiently endowed, and I was wondering whether Michelangelo was mimicking himself or if he was just trying to make his own package look bigger by comparison?

My guess is that Michelangelo's public would have judged David by the standards of the ancient statuary with which they were familiar. If so, an organ of that size in relationship to the rest of the body would not have seemed diminutive; in fact, they might even have been astonished at the sculpture's realism, particularly with regard to the fact that David has pubic hair.
I'm afraid I'm not convinced by the "Goliath's point of view" theory put forward by the second anonymous poster. Are you suggesting that the best location for a sculpture of the David's size is at the bottom of a well? Why in his right mind would Michelangelo expend so much effort on the front of the statue if that were the case?
My belief is that David's proportions are skewed because he is an adolescent who hasn't stopped growing yet, and that this aspect of the design was less exaggerated when the sculpture was in its original location, with almost unlimited space all around it, as opposed to its current position in a very enclosed space, filling a what is effectively a large niche at the Accademia gallery. [talk to the] HAM 20:13, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

The statue (or at least the block of marble when Donatello first started working it) was originally intended for the roof of the Duomo. There were, at the time, two statues of this size on the roof, but at least one was in cheap materials and not intended to last. (I've seen old sketches of the Duomo that show the statues, but I can't find anything quickly on line.) The intent was to replace it with a marble statue. (By the way, the original intent was not to get a single massive hunk of marble like this, but—I believe—four separate ones: one for each leg, one for the torso, one for the upper body.)

If someone wants to do some library research, this shouldn't be hard to find.

By the way, the thick ankles are almost certainly simply a structural issue. Even as it is, the recent restoration work found hairline cracks. - Jmabel | Talk 18:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


Re the size of the penis, according to an article in the Guardian, by John Hooper, at http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,12576,1396034,00.html , this might be explained by two Florentine doctors who attribute it to "a contraction of the reproductive organs"..."consistent with the combined effects of fear, tension, and aggression." Atraveler | Talk 7:16, 26 November 2006 (PST)

Um. It's a statue. There is such a thing as reading too much into something: this followed the style of the classical Greek and Roman public sculpture that was so en vogue at the time. Don't forget, Michelangelo got his start doing faux classical sculptures for the Medici. - Jmabel | Talk 00:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
That's advice best given to The Guardian and other newspapers reporting the conjecture. But there's also the possibility that the classical Greek and Roman folks were very observant, and the Florentine doctors just explain. Atraveler 09:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

In "Style and Detail" it says "There is controversy, however, over the statue's supposed Biblical reference, since the statue portrays an uncircumcised male..." but then later "Recent studies show, however, that the statue of David is in fact circumcised" so I'm changing the first bit to past tense since there can't be controversy any more... Omishark 02:23, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Michelangelo's family name

from my reading and studying days i seem to remember his family name was "Buonaretti" i also remember my grand father telling me about it (he was born in 1888 and also came from Italy)so may be it is important may be not what do you think????????


MichelJosephPetulli@mac.com

The only work he ever signed is the Pietà in St. Peter's, which he signed MICHAELA[N]GELUS BONAROTUS FLORENTIN[US] FACIEBA[T]. That is, of course, a Latinized version of his name, but suggests that "Buonarotti" is a better choice than "Buonaretti". - Jmabel | Talk 21:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paoletti's remarks

I went to a talk last night by art historian John Paoletti (who, by the way, probably deserves an article: pretty important writer on Renaissance art, and no slouch on contemporary art, either). Paoletti calls into question whether it is entirely appropriate to call the work unambiguously either "Michelangelo's" or "David". He suggests that Michelangelo, ever the good self-publicist, may have played down how much work Donatello had already done on the block of marble; also, that in the copious written records about the project, prior to the erection of the statue, there is only one reference to it as a "David" (it is otherwise always the "giant" or the "colossus"), that it lacks the standard attributes of a statue of David (no head of Goliath, which is explained by it being before the battle, but also that what is over his shoulder really doesn't much resemble a sling), and that, in any event, there is something rather ironic about a giant statue of the giant-killer.

He also had some very interesting remarks about the statue as a symbol of the Florentine Republic, counterposed to the periods of Medici rule, and that its displacment of the earlier statue of Judith was both (1) a displacement of a Medici-sponsored sculpture but also (2) explicit in its gender politics. On the latter, he quoted several contemporary documents of the time. Apparently, the politics over this continued: he showed a detail of a painting from one of the periods of Medici restoration in which (1) a scene in the piazza is framed so that David's head is just out of the image and (2) right in front of the David there is a break in a frieze-like arrangement of spectators; in the opening there is an image of a dog pissing on the ground.

I don't have anything properly citable on any of this. Many years ago Paoletti wrote a review of Charles Seymour Jr.'s book Michelangelo's David: A Search for Identity (Art Bulletin, Vol. 51, No. 3. September 1969, pp. 294-297). I don't have access to that. Some of this may be in that book or his review. Also, Paoletti and Wendy Stedman wrote a book Collaboration in Italian Renaissance art, Yale University Press (1978) ISBN 0300021755; some of this may be there.

Renaissance art history is not particularly an area where I can claim expertise, just basic cluefulness, so I'm probably not the one to follow this up. Someone else might well want to do so.

By the way, we don't mention at all in this article that for much of its history, including in Michelangelo's lifetime, David's genitalia were covered by a garland of finely wrought silver leaves. - Jmabel | Talk 22:07, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Restorations

Unless I'm mistaken, there have been four separate attempts at restoring the statue. The first was a minor disaster, because one of the materials used to strip dirt, etc. off of the statue was hydrochloric acid. - Jmabel | Talk 18:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's a citation for the hydrochloric acid (which was apparently an 1843 attempt to remove wax that had been applied in 1810) - Jmabel | Talk 18:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What's on his shoulder?

I came here trying to figure out what he's holding on his shoulder, but it doesn't seem to say. Does anyone know? Should that info be in the article? --Masamage 20:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

It is almost universally described as his sling. (John Paoletti remarks that a simple piece of cloth like that would not make an effective sling, part of why he questions whether the statue was originally supposed to be David. Sadly, I don't have anything in writing for Paoletti's remarks.) - Jmabel | Talk 02:03, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
According to one of the external links, he is holding the other end of the sling in his right hand, although you can't really tell from the photos. Appleseed (Talk) 04:18, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] angry neighbours

I was under the impression that David was a symbol of the Republic of Florence conquering the Medici Family, not its neighbours. It was when the Medici family regained power of Florence that the statue of Hercules was comissioned and placed next to David to symbolise the power of the Medici family regaining control of the city. MDP 82.55.128.48 15:56, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The broader point being that David is a flexibly applicable symmbol of power over brute force. --Wetman 16:40, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
MDP: While the meaning of David is flexible (the statue was begun under the Medici), you are certainly correct about Hercules. - Jmabel | Talk 18:45, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Different image

I have swapped the image used in this article with the one in Accademia di Belle Arti Firenze because I think that it improves both of them ... it's more of a technical than aesthetic decision, based on looking at both pages at 1024x786 screen size using both Internet Explorer and Mozilla Firefox.

I was editing the David article, and the aspect ratio (tall and thin) was incongruous with the other two images in the article ... because of the {{sculpture}} used to display it, which forces the name of the city and the museum to be on the same line, the width of the displayed box is determined by the combined length of the two text strings ... the result forces the image and caption to spill into the section below at some screen resolutions ... the captions of each one point to the other, which is what gave me the idea to swap them.

There is also a difference in where this spillage occurs based on which browser is used, so I had both pages open in tabs in both browsers so that I could compare the four combinations ... I am also very sensitive to the fact that many public access terminals are constrained to 1024x768 resolution, and the size of the image makes a much bigger difference at that screen size than it does at 1600x1200, which is what a lot of editors have at their home or office ... I tend to work at 1280x1024, but will occasionally switch to 800x600 mode in order to experience what a lot of readers using legacy PCs will see, and that is why images should not be larger than 250 pixels wide ... try it yourself on several pages, and you'll see what I mean.

Anyway, because the captions on the images of the statue in both articles point to each other, the same image should not be used for both ... if Some Other Editor does not like the change, then please revert both articles rather than just restoring one of them.

Happy Editing! —72.75.100.232 07:47, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I liked the photo by Rico Heil ("Silmaril") better for the David article, since it gives a different perspective than the other two now on the David page, and since it's just better. The new one that "72.75..." just moved from the Accademia page is actually better suited for that page, since it shows off the Tribune better than Rico's does. The aspect ratios and text alignment should be secondary to the content. I don't want to get in the business of Wikipedia editing, however, so please consider me to be just kibbitzing.
For a really different view of David, from Goliath's viewpoint right through the column David is facing, check out my webpage at http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/david/David.htm . Enjoy! 128.146.137.121 16:47, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you that the image swapped from Accademia di Belle Arti Firenze was better suited to that article, but I was pressed for time when I did it ... if you can find another image of the original statue elsewhere in Wikipedia that can be used in this article, then leave a note here and I will gladly replace it with the tall, skinny one, and restore the one with the better view of the Tribuna to its original article. —72.75.70.147 02:47, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Then if the one now at Accademia is better for this one, and the one now here is better for Accademia, why don't you just switch them back the way they were originally? I'm sure Michelangelo would not be concerned if the text didn't align just right. HuMcCulloch 03:14, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Forest Lawn Replica

There have been at least two replicas of David at Forest Lawn Cemetery. The first was shattered in an earthquake. When it was replaced, the foundation was set on a thick layer of a recently discovered material: Teflon. The cemetery confidently announced that in case of future quakes the statue would merely slide about, undamaged. The last big quake snapped the statue off right at the knees.Saxophobia 02:45, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Angles.

Wouldn't it be smarter if we had pictures of the statue from different angles? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.238.101.147 (talk) 08:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed! So why don't you bring back Rico's photo from the Accademia page, which originally was here, and send this one back to l'Accademia, where it shows off the Tribune better. (I'll let someone else do this, however, since I don't do Wiki editing, apart from adding an occasional external reference...) HuMcCulloch 03:19, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Height

A major issue with the height of the statue. David is actually 17ft, not 14ft. I tried to change it, but given the amount of incorrectly documented literature on the subject, this might be an impossible task. See http://graphics.stanford.edu/projects/mich/publicity/faq.html#height%20of%20the%20David for verification. --Jeff (talk) 19:11, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The real statue

I notice that the top image in the info box is the real statue and not a replica (at least according to the image info page). I wonder if we can add that it is the genuine original statue somewhere, so people know they aren't looking at a replica. JayKeaton (talk) 05:03, 6 April 2008 (UTC)