Talk:Date of independence of European countries

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 27 July 2007. The result of the discussion was No Consensus.

This list is going to be just full of those problems as the Estonia entry mentioned. Which date do we list -the earliest, the most recent, all of them? Rmhermen 14:16, Dec 6, 2003 (UTC)

For maximum utility, all of them. We should also mention the dates of existence of historical sovereigns, and possibly turn this into a timeline rather than a table? Morwen 14:19, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
  • I think maybe the earliest, because there is caountries, who did not recognized Soviet occupation in Estonia. So it would be 24 February 1918.--Egon
I like the idea of listing all dates. Also shouldn't this be moved to List of dates of independence of European countries (or maybe Timeline of independence of European countries)? Rmhermen 22:50, Dec 6, 2003 (UTC)
  • The first date 843 is correct for the name France but not for its political status that precises the actual territories as it has been proclaimed in 1789. This may be the exact year of independance for France in its latest political status--212.3.246.78 18:00, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Arguably, it could be listed as the establishment of the Fifth Republic in 1958 MrWeeble 20:41, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
You're probably thinking of 1792, when the First Republic was established. (France remained a monarchy from 1789-92.) But the First Republic was fundamentally very different from today's French system of government, and it did not last very long, so I think using that date is questionable.
  • Having "independence" in the title looks weird. France became independent in 843? Independent from the Roman Empire, I suppose! I think the word 'creation' is more accurate.
It may not be ideal in all cases, but I think "independent" is preferable to "creation." These states were not necessarily created from scratch when they became independent. Many existed as autonomous regions, duchies, etc. before independence.

Contents

[edit] England & Scotland?

How can you place a date of independence on a country when it was never not independent? England and Scotland didn't exist until hundreds of years after the last occupiers (the Romans) left. Fair enough, for both England and Scotland there are unification dates where smaller Anglo-Saxon kingdoms united to form England and smaller petty kingdoms united to form Scotland; but how can this be labelled "independence" when surely there was nothing and nobody to gain it from? I don't think we should be using the label "independent" to refer to a nation's formation.

[edit] What date?

What date of independence should be written here ? When declared or when granted ? Bogdan | Talk 23:38, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

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I don't agree with the date of indipendence of switzerland. The old confederacy started in 1291. As wrote on the page "August 1":

1291 - The Swiss Confederation is formed with the signature of the Federal Charter.

Could we please make it right?

Matrixch88 01:39, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Great Britain

I'm not certain the 1603 date is appropriate. My understanding is that while the English and Scottish monarchies were united after that year, England and Scotland remained legally separate countries (with completely separate Parliaments) until the Act of Union of 1707. Most historicians seem to prefer 1707 as the year of union over 1603.

That's completely correct. England and Scotland were seperate kingdoms until unification in 1707. The relationship between Scotland and England before this point was like the relationship between Australia and New Zealand today: two completely seperate countries with the same monarch (in this case Elizabeth II). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.79.195.61 (talk) 23:20, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Portuguese independence

Portugal is independent from the Kingdom of Leon since the day that Afonso I of Portugal was proclaimed King, that is July 26 1139 (after the Battle of Ourique). By 1143 this was recognized by the King of León and in 1179 by the Pope. The correct date, therefore, is the one of proclamation and acclamation by the first assembly of the estates-general at Lamego, where he was given the crown from the archbishop of Braga (to confirm the independence) - 1139. The Ogre 16:39, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Factual problems

there are enormous factual and methodological problems with this page. About half of the claims are disputable, and far more explanation is needed to say why these dates are chosen. Nay be better to use neutral dates, such as those used by Norman Davies. (Stpaul 20:15, 13 March 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Dissolution of SFR Yugoslavia

Here's the link [1] from European Journal of International Law; there are the opinions and conclusions of Badinter Arbitration Committee. Kubura 11:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Two concepts

This list seems to be confused between two concepts. Is it trying to give the first date on which each "volk" was organised into a separate political structure, or the last date from which each modern state became fully sovereign? For a few countries such as France, the two are arguably the same, but in most cases they differ.

How about splitting the list in two? I think both lists would be useful and can be verified, but at the moment it's just a confused mess.

— FIRE! in a crowded theatre... 12:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)