Talk:Darth Vader/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

I try to avoid super-listing in categories whenever possible. Since Darth Vader is part of Imperial characters and Sith characters, which are both sub-lists of Star Wars characters, I don't think Darth has to be listed in the Super-list. Oberiko 01:06, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

A previous version read that Vader killed Kenobi. In fact Kenobi focuses and then entirely disappears bodily, leaving Vader kicking his clothes in puzzlement. Individuals hit with light sabers in the movie series (Luke Skywalker, Darth Maul, the Tatooine bar victim) suffer searing flesh wounds, not complete disappearance. Chris Rodgers 07:02, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thats because none of them are jedi Knights like Obi-Wan. It's mentioned in several interviews by Lucas that Kenobi learned how to preserve his identity when he died so yes no doubt he was struck down by Vader.

I think Lucas did that just to look cool, like a Wuxia kung fu movie.

Also calling "second-in-command" without qualification is retconning I think. In the Episode 4 he appeared to be under Grand Moff Tarkin.

Contents

Vader/Anakin's death

I corrected the part of Vader's biography on his death proper. Many of you have edited this to mention that when Vader dies, his body is "reincorporated into the Force and disappears". I guess those people don't see the movies enough to know that Vader/Anakin's body does not disappear in Return Of The Jedi (the way Ben did in "A New Hope" and Yoda in "Jedi"). He dies whole, and therefore he is cremated whole by Luke. Why some people don't disappear right away at the moment of death is something Lucas will have to explain himself.

Hiphats 01:13, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It is only Vader's suit that is burned. See this for more information. Aidje 17:44, 2005 Mar 22 (UTC)
I went ahead and edited the article to reflect the information provided in my previous comment (I used wording from an old version of the article). Before seeing that link that I gave you, I would have agreed with you that Vader did not disappear; however, in light of this information, I think that he did. If you have some source to the contrary, please provide it so that we can all groan about the discontinuity. :-) Aidje 18:06, 2005 Mar 22 (UTC)

OK. Want proof? Go back and watch the last act of "Return Of The Jedi" again and you will see that Vader/Anakin does not disappear the way Kenobi and Yoda do. He dies whole, and Lucas did not shoot any additional footage that proves Vader/Anakin disappear. When Luke cremates Vader/Anakin, it is his entire body (covered in the armor of Vader) that burns. If Vader/Anakin did indeed disappear, then there would have been no need for a cremation. Also, listen closely to Lucas' commentary on the "Jedi" DVD...he says that the cremation scene was not in the script, it was shot at the last minute to bring closure to Luke's relationship to his father.

If you can't see it, you must be seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. Hiphats 19:31, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Your "proof" is totally unfalsifiable: RotJ showed some of Vader's last moments, but it did not show the moment of death. It also did not show his body at any point after his death: only his armor. If you're thinking that it looks like there's a body in the armor, remember that Vader was "more machine than man"; probably only the organic part of him disappeared, and all of the machine parts were left. None of your quotes from Lucas say anything explicit about Vader's body being burned. My Steve Sansweet quote says very clearly, "And when Darth Vader sacrifices himself in the end to save his son, he too becomes one with the Force (it is his armor that burned in the Endor funeral pyre)." There's nothing wrong with being able to admit when you're wrong. That's a strength, not a weakness. -- Aidje 19:54, 2005 Apr 5 (UTC)
Sorry -- but I must disagree. In that final moment at the shuttle and Luke says "Father, I won't leave you!", it is clear that he is mourning. He wouldn't mourn his father unless his father was actually dead. Anakin Skywalker was dead -- not about to die -- dead. His body did NOT do the disappearing act. Remember, when Kenobi's body vanished when he killed him, he was clearly surprised at this -- he probed the clothing with his foot. Also, look that RotS, Jedi were being killed all over the galaxy, and none of their bodies vanished. At the Senate chamber, Sidious had Troops searching for Yoda's body. The vanishing body at the moment of death must have been ht e result of the continued training Yoda and Kenobi took from Qui-Gon Jin. Vader did not receive Qui-Gon’s training, ergo, his body remained in our reality after he died. Yoda once said, “Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter!” Anakin’s spirit being with Kenobi and Yoda at the end of RotJ must have been the result of actions taken in the netherworld by Yoda and Kenobi’s spirits. Luke was cremating his father’s body; just as Qui-Gon Jin’s body was cremated at the end of TPM. Robeykr 02:59, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

I think you have the weakness and I the strength. I will soon correct it proper again, but until then please, please, go back and watch the DVD, listen to the commentary, and read the novelization. For the umpteenbillionth time, if Vader/Anakin disappeared like you insist that he did, it would have been shown in "Return Of The Jedi". Since the movies are the main canon, and it never showed the disappearance, then I am right. If you don't know your "Star Wars", then I'm afraid you're on the Dark Path. 68.105.76.236 23:56, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Aidje, ROTJ did show Vaders death. Vader looks up at look and says "tell your sister, you where right. You where right" then closes his eys and is gone. That is vaders death. It is also revealed in episode three that one's body does not have to dissapre at the moment of death to be incorparated into the force, as Qui-Gon Jin does not dissappre, but it is said that he teachs Obi-wan, and yoda this technique.

On a deeper level, one can say that the moment that Vader decides to kill the Emperor is the death and subsequent rebirth of Vader and Anikan Skywalker. So if you look at it this way, only Anikan's death is shown in ROTJ.

---Iorek Brynson

I completely agree with Robeykr. His logic seems correct. There is no evidence that Obi-Wan or Yoda came to Vader before he died in RotJ. Therefore, it is safe to assume that Yoda or Obi-Wan did something just as Robeykr said, becuase Qui-Gon learned his little be-one-with-the-Force trick AFTER he died.

Whatever!!!

No No No

This article is supposed to be under the name Anakin Skywalker. "Vader" was born Anakin, and died Anakin. So change it back! Even as a Sith, there was conflict within. Change it back! Repeat! Change it back! Now! Apologies. I am enraged. NOW!!!!! KFan II 23:43, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

I think this issue is closed. The consensus is for the Article to be under "Darth Vader". Let us now concentrate on getting the Palpatine/Sidious matter cleared up. Ace-o-aces 23:50, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Not just consensus, also policy, as I pointed out to Ace-o-aces. Use the most common name, not the one you think is most correct. For instance, Chiang Kai-Shek (read the section on his names alone!), arguably Malcolm X (chose a new name before death when he renounced violence), etc. — Phil Welch 04:10, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Keep in mind that Anakin Skywalker only lived for 45 years. He lived his life as Darth Vader for 23 years, so it only make sense for his article to remain at Darth Vader, since he lived his life as Darth Vader more than 50% of his 45 years.

Cultural reference

How do we link with the character of Caius Céplus from the movie Asterix & Obelix: Mission Cleopatra ? The character a roman general wearing a Darth-Vader-esque helmet and once his army is attacked says (I paraphrase a little) : When the (Roman) empire is attacked, the empire strikes back. It is followed by the keynotes of the the Imperial March.

My suggestion is that we add a pop culture section to the Star Wars page. Cbarbry 01:14, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Too many pop culture references in this article. We can't just list every little reference to Vader 2 or three examples should be sufficient.

Combine with Anikin

Shouldn't this entry be combined with Anikin Skywalker entry, as they are the same character.

While Vader and Anikin are the same characer, he is most identifible as Vader. ---Iorek Brynson

Replacing the Spirits picture

I propose we replace the picture of the spirits in the end of the Darth Vader section with the following, which I have added (along with the old shot) to List of changes in Star Wars re-releases:

While on a personal level, I don't have strong feelings either way about this, I think the Sebastian Shaw one should remain on Wikipedia for Wikipedia reasons, as undoubtedly that is the version of the scene that more people have seen. — Phil Welch 23:04, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

  • I don't in particular either, it's more in the spirit of George Lucas constantly updating his work to suit his vision. I personally think that, if they were going to update Hayden Christensen in and revert the spirit of Anakin to his pre-Vader form, then they should have gone back and reverted the spirit of Obi-Wan to his youthful form as well. It would have been a hellacious undertaking on Lucasfilm's part, but it would have fit in a lot better. --Kitch 03:06, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
No. Obi-Wan was always good. Anakin wasn't. Because Hayden Christensen portrayed Anakin turning into Darth Vader (and thus, Anakin on the Light Side), it was a necessary change. Like I said, no need to change Obi-Wan, because he was always good.
Why not show both? One with the current caption, and one reading "Hayden Christensen (left) as the spirit of Anakin Skywalker in Return of the Jedi (2004 DVD revision)". Or would this be too confusing? 63.188.169.154 19:22, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the redeemed Anakin was "good" at the end of Episode IV. He destroyed the evil emperor and said Luke was right about being"good." That is why the end of the new remastered episode IV with the young Anakin is confusing and and inappropriate.

Showing both would clutter the article. — Phil Welch 20:39, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Maybe so, to a small degree, but you might argue that about any new picture. Is it not more important to convey potentially confusing or otherwise interesting information visually, when possible? Editing any article is a struggle between cleanliness and intuitiveness. Anyway, in the absence of both, I think it may be prudent -- albeit unpopular -- to switch to the Hayden Christensen one, which is the new canon, and the one anyone who is unfamiliar with Star Wars (and hence, reading this article) would be more likely to see. 19:38, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

The clutter problem arises because both of them would have to be essentially the same place. Actually, I've added a bunch of pictures, but because they're all well-separated from each other, there's no clutter. We could create a combined image that has both images, one on top of the other, but that would be necessarily twice as big and therefore more clutterful (although not as clutterful as displaying both pictures). If there's an article on Star Wars revisionism, such an image would be *excellent* there. — Phil Welch 19:52, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Ask, and ye shall receieve, Mr. Welch: List of changes in Star Wars re-releases. Although, they already have both pictures there... 63.188.9.210 20:02, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

I was pretty sure there was an article, thanks. — Phil Welch 21:12, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

[[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg -->|400px]]

Personally, I like this one better. Copperchair 12:30, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Sections

I'm trying to keep the section headings roughly congruent with the movies, so that the prequel trilogy falls under "Anakin Skywalker" with the subsections correspending to the three films, respectively, and the sequel trilogy falling under "Darth Vader". True, he's also called Darth Vader throughout much of Episode III, but he never renounces the identity of Anakin Skywalker, and every Sith between Darth Maul and Darth Vader still use their original name (Darth Sidious still goes by Palpatine, Darth Tyrannus still goes by Dooku). True, this is because they are hiding the fact that they are Sith, but then again, so is Anakin until the end of Revenge of the Sith. — Phil Welch 14:26, 19 May 2005 (UTC)


Actually, he did renounce the name Anakin Skywalker, in a way.

Luke: I have accepted that you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father.

Vader: That name no longer has any meaning for me! — JoJoTrue

I meant that he never renounces it in Episode III, until perhaps the very end. — Phil Welch 19:54, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Did Vader kill Padme?

There seems to be a low-intensity edit war over this question. Wikipedia policy is to follow a Neutral Point of View, and Obi-Wan teaches us that "You'll find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." Point being, whether you think the injuries from the Force-choking or the strain of childbirth, (or Padme's broken heart, which we may want to blame on Anakin) or all three killed Padme, the neutral thing to do is to simply state the fact (Palpatine told Vader that Vader killed Padme) and set aside the argument over whether or not Vader truly killed Padme. — Phil Welch 14:28, 19 May 2005 (UTC), 05:20, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

-Well, if you follow the story I think you'll find the Emperor probably did it - as the medical droid tellingly said, "She appears to have lost the will to live", and given the Emperors need to undermine Vader's sense of "Good", he probably did that to her and then told Vader he killed her, with a small smile on his face when Vader goes a tad more evil. It removed the one "good" person remaining in his life whom he cared for and made him all the more scarred and evil. - AMK

I think that's supposed to imply that she "died of a broken heart", so to speak, but this open question of interpretation should be left open. — Phil Welch 21:57, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Mustafar picture

Image:Vader-mustafar.jpg
The newly suited Vader standing on the planet Mustafar

Does that even occur during the movie? I don't think it does but I haven't seen it yet. If it's just some stylized Photoshop rendering, well, it's cool, but it's not exactly encyclopedic. Suggestions? — Phil Welch 18:53, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

I've removed it. There's no scene in the film that it could have come from, so it's clearly misleading. Although it is a remarkably cool picture. I've added it to the talk page so you can see what I'm talking about, and also because it's so damn cool. — Phil Welch 02:27, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Name

Darth Vader was born as Anakin Skywalker and died as Anakin Skywalker. - 68.72.133.233 20:40, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

This has been discussed and decided upon, anon. We're keeping it at "Darth Vader" because that's the best known name. Read Talk:Anakin Skywalker if you want to know more. — Phil Welch 20:42, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

One can also eaisly argue that, that the persona of Vader and The Persona of Anakin Skywalker where two people sharing the same body, but id rather not get into that right now. Iorek 19:10, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
They may be different, but that doesn't mean that they should be in separate articles, and since "Darth Vader" is the most common name, then that's the title of the article. Nohat 04:59, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Darth Vader Inspiration

I've seen numerous sources stating that George Lucas was inspired to create Darth Vader after either watching the anime or reading the manga of Android Kikaider (searching Kikaider and Darth Vader together shows several sources). Vader is supposedly modeled on Hakaider, the evil counter-part to Kikaider (note, this is the Hakaider from the Kikaider series, not from the later movie Mechanical Violator Hakaider). Shouldn't this fact be represented in this article? --Paul Morrill

Anakin's Near-Immolation

If you look really closely at the scenes after Anakin gets his limbs and his left arm cut off by Obi-Wan "Ben" Kenobi, you will see that if you are paying attention to the final trash-talk Obi-Wan is performing, Anakin's eyes turn Sith Yellow before he gets burned. As Anakin screams out the words, "I HATE YOU!!" (This should be capitalized), and after Obi-Wan said that he loved Anakin, watch very carefully because there had to be a reason why Anakin's body burned. Should Anakin have been afar from the lava shore, his body wouldn't be engulfed in flames. Anakin was too close to the shore and after Obi-Wan said the life after Anakin screamed "I HATE YOU!!!", a flow of lava touched Anakin's damaged limbs--That's how Anakin started burning and screaming. The ground can't burn Anakin naturally--it had to be lava contact through his damaged limbs that caused Anakin to ignite in fire.

Watch the movie about 3 times and you'll see how Anakin REALLY got nearly immolated. Unless lava touched Anakin, then Anakin wouldn't be burned.


This is actually incorrect; the heat coming off the ground around Anakin would have definitely been enough to set him on fire. The ground by the lava flow is essentially like hot coals, and as anyone can experiment at home, when you put something on hot coals it has a tendency to burst into flame.

Name 2

Shouldn't he assumes the name in the first paragraph be changed to he is given the name since it's given to him by Darth Sidious in EP III, the current version implies that he chose it for himself. —Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 20:35, 2005 May 30 (UTC)

Sure. Why didn't you change it? :) — Phil Welch 20:55, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

23 Years Anakin was Vader

An edit was necessary because Anakin was encased in Vader's mask for 23 years, and Anakin was not exposed to sunlight also for 23 years. If you add up the BBY Years and add the ABY Years (Anakin died at the age of 45), you will realize that Anakin Skywalker was Darth Vader for 23 Years. In his dying breaths, Anakin abandoned his Darth Vader identity at the last minute, saving himself from damnation.

Furthermore, Vader, after he donned the cybernetic costume, decided not to use Anakin Skywalker afterwards, for which during ROTJ which he tells Luke that "That name has no meaning to me", since Vader abandoned use of his given name (Anakin Skywalker) during his Sith Lord Tenure.