Talk:Darth Nihilus

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on August 7, 2007. The result of the discussion was redirect to List of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic characters.

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[edit] I added a new picture

I think it looks slightly better, but it doesn't show his face that well, because I had to reduce size or it would mess up the article. Keep or stay?Shadow Blade 22:06, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The reduced size is fine. Fair use images (which is what this would be) are supposed to be low-resolution anyway. --maru (talk) contribs 00:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nihilus' voice

Extracting the audio file or recording it and then playing it backwards reveals that he does indeed talk.

[edit] Merging

I'm thinking this should be merged into the Minor characters in Star Wars page. Thoughts? --Cbarbry 04:39, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

On second thought maybe not. I looked and Darth Malak has his own (pretty extensive) page. How key of a character is he? (I haven't played the game yet because it's not out on PC yet.) --Cbarbry 04:46, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
He isn't featured as much as Malak was in KotOR, but being one of three Sith Lords, it makes more sense that there is a division between the amount each of them are featured. --Nufy8 20:00, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
He is absolutely crucial to Visas Marr, but as far as the rest of the game goes, he could be easily cut. --maru 21:36, 29 May 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Edit summary- ???

In the revisions of this article here[1] one of the editors claims "He's obviously not dead yet". What does s/he mean? --Anonymous

I have no idea what Jon Hart means- Nihilus dies pretty well in the game. --maru 21:36, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
I believe Jon was referring to the fact that the previous revision claimed that he had died in the Mandalorian Wars, which would make his appearance in the game impossible, as it is set after the Mandalorian Wars. --Nufy8 21:44, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
Alright then- I guess I should have examined the article more thoroughly, and not relied on the diff. --maru 23:38, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
As far as I know, Nihilus dissolved as fought on the ravager, then i remember his servent Visas said ' he'll be waiting for you on the surface of telos '- but I never got to the surface i went straight to malachor V ... I havent modified anything just a thought
I don't remember Visas saying that. Where did you hear that dialogue?


[edit] Personal Musings on Darth Nihilus

When Visas Marr unmasked Darth Nihilus on the Ravager, one of her responses was that she saw only a man, nothing more. While this in itself means nothing, it could mean that the greatest fear of Darth Nihilus was powerlessness. While this fear is shared among many Sith (and some Jedi), I believe in the case of Darth Nihilus it was more extreme. I guess that he inwardly wanted to prove to others that he was not "merely" a man. This could also be another reason why he divested himself of his own humanity. It could also be a reminder to all of us that for all our supposed capabilities, we are only humans who could only do so much. --Chameleon.

Another subject I would like to bring up is Darth Nihilus' method of communication. It seems to me that Nihilus is using telepathy or telepathic impressions to make his intentions known. He could still understand Basic when spoken to, but his communication has evolved to the point that he does not need to speak. --Chameleon

Well, when Kreia says that he (Nihilus) is not to be considered a man or human anymore, it is interesting to wonder- what part of his humanity she is referring to? --Psi Edit
His spirit I think- he cannot even communicate with humans, and mere humans cannot comprehend the depth of his immersion in the Dark side, nor the magnitude of his hunger; can you really comprehend a hunger that could devour an entire planet, and still not be satisfied, IMHO. --maru 15:01, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
He can communicate to some people. Visas (who was raised by Nihilus) talks to him and receives the order to find the Exile from him. But you bring a good point. How can he control a Sith fleet by emiting patterns of sounds that his subordinates can't understand? --Psi Edit
Really good battle meditation! :) --maru 02:31, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
his voice is the same as the voices of the sith holocroms in atris' possesion. Could he be one of the true sith? darth malice
It certainly is possible, but unlikely as he is accounted for in the galaxy proper as one of Revan's Sith I believe. I question the identification of the Sith in Atris' Holocrons with the True Sith though. Seems unlikely. --Maru
Arent we told flat out in the game that the Sith are extinct (I cant swear to that it might have been in KOTOR I) but wouldnt that say without question Nihilus can't be a Sith?--Darkling235 04:22, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Sith as a species, perhaps. Sith as an ideology, organization, and government? No. --maru (talk) contribs 04:22, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The game is all about showing the weaknesses of both extremes in the Force, light and dark. The quintessential Sith features betrayal, strengths gained through pain and hunger for power. I do not believe our Sith Lord here to be empty or meaningless to the story, we are used to tough and powerful villains, for once we see something different, an utter slave, crawling for his need to feed. I found that interesting, especially the way he is defeated, he had to be exposed to the Republic, the Mandalorians, and a broken bond to be weak enough, also it wasn't a duel. As for the name, I believe it to be linked to the nature of Force Bonds and his ability to consume those connections, drawing others' energies to him like a dead star, a hole in the Force, leaving nothing. --Jinger 03:49, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mask and Body covering similarity

He is similar to Darth Vader and General Grievous because he wears a fearsome mask along with clothing/armor that covers his entire body. --Ed Telerionus 19:45, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's the way Sith Lords are. --Psi edit
It's not a categorical truth, mind you- Exar Kun or Ulic Qel-Droma didn't wear masks and full body armor; nor did Freedon Nadd or Ludo Kressh, or most of the old Sith Lords. --maru 16:12, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Nor did Traya and most definatly Darth Sion. --Kross 19:04, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
Yeah I take back my comment, only Carnor Jax and Lady Lumiya wear masks. Also my comment really dosnt make any sense (and neither does yours Telerionus) mainly because Darth Vader is forced to wear that mask and armor as life support. Also Grievous technically dosnt have a body anymore (the only body he has is his armor) thus it isnt really armor. And futhermore Nihilus is the only Sith Lord to wear a mask for no necessary reason.
Are you so sure Nihilus doesn't have a reason for wearing the mask? After all, even his humanity is debatable. --maru 03:48, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The mask is a trophy. It is believed to be made from Revan's skull. --NEMT 01:52, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Made from Revan's skull? Are you daft? --maru (talk) contribs 04:01, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
WP:NPA. In early plot revisions of Kotor2 Nihilus killed Revan, his mask is made out of Revan's skull; or it least it may have been. Talk is they were going to explain it clearly in the game, but didn't want the plot to take such a morbid turn and left it unanswered. It's a shame really, I thought it would've been a much more appropriate explanation for how Kreia got the Ebon hawk. --NEMT 06:10, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok I change that to Nihilus is the only Lord with no known reason to wear a mask (either that or forget the whole thing). -- Psi edit

*Darth* Revan wore a Mask as well. It was conjectured at one point in KotOR that he did so to hide the effects the dark side might have had on his appearance. A cutscene late in the game reveals that his appearance was indeed badly messed up by the dark side of the force. Certian game elements also indicate that the deformity can be reversed somehow or another, but will re-appear if he continues to delve deeply into the dark side. It's a reason, but a minor one...as it's purely cosmetic. -Graptor

What cutscene was this? Nufy8 13:38, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
In the scenes portraying Revan's capture, wasn't he wearing a mask, so as not to spoil how the player is Revan? --Maru (talk) 19:40, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
That is my understanding. Nufy8 19:42, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Well I was trying my darndest not to spoil it. Oh well. The cutscene occurs late in the game, I believe while you're on the Leviathan, when it's finally revealed that the player character...er...was...Revan. There's a series of flashbacks to different things people have said that hinted at it through the game(all standard, pre-rendered cutscenes), and then, at the very end, it changes to a game-render cutscene of Revan standing, I believe, on the top of the Temple on Unknown world(could be wrong). At this point Revan takes off his mask, and reveals whichever face the player chose...but with the 'dark side' deformities plainly visible. I also recall, though I cannot recall when it happened, someone(Bastila comes to mind) speculating that Revan wore a mask to hide such (possible) deformities. She didn't actually *KNOW* that's why, she was guessing, as the deformities are sometimes known to happen to dark side users. It is, in fact, the only in-character explanation offered.
I actually suspect that there were indeed several out-of-character reasons that were the real driving force. Among them being to hide that the Player was Revan, but also a more practical reason. As Revan's appearance, and even Gender, is dependant on the Player's selection... if they didn't hide his face somehow, they'd have to do a different cutscene for each possible appearance! Using the 'pre-rendered' cutscenes like they do would've been rendered all but impossible as the size considerations would be absurd. Note that they avoid that the one time Revan's face is show by showing a darkside version of the player character in a game-rendered 'cutscene'. They didn't need to use a mask though, just hide his face somehow. A mask is a probably the best way to do that, however. Also, it makes him seem somewhat like a 'faceless evil sith dude', which makes it all the harder for the player to identify with him at all(which gives the two somewhat of a 'mental seperation', unless you choose to embrace being Revan...) The lack of any speech by Revan helps this as well(though you have the same problem there as with the faces, though not quite as bad, perhaps.) Trying to evoke Darth Vader a bit perhaps as well... -Graptor
Interesting that while people cannot identify with Revan audiences completely identified with Darth Vader
Just as a nitpick, Grievous wasn't a Sith Lord or even a Sith or Jedi. Hemlock Martinis 04:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Species

Darth Nihilus WAS human, he just trapped his consciousness in a suit, so shouldn't it say he was human instead of possibly human? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.112.244.104 (talk) 00:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC).

That has no backing, the only thing that supports you is the exile's comment that he was still "human" enough to remember being betrayed, and that isn't good enough, remember that in episode IV Han Solo refers to Jabba as a human being, therefore we have no sources about Nihilus's species. BassxForte 01:05, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] cruft....

Why is this article not cruft? This article as far as I can see does not explain this character's impact (if any) outside of the game. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 19:48, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Krayt

In his conversation with Krayt, Nihilus never states that krayt was a "pretender" to the sith legacy, Krayt couldn't even UNDERSTAND what Nihilus was saying anyway, the one who declares Krayt to be a "pretender" was Darth Andeddu, therefore it should be changed. Although I will say, Nihilus DID appear to agree with what Andeddu was saying, he just wasn't the one who outright say it. BassxForte 01:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prod

I prodded this article for deletion because it is solely a collection of plot summary. It makes no assertion of the character's real-world notability. While the content here may be appropriate for Wookieepedia's in-universe-friendly perspective, it doesn't meet Wikipedia's standards for writing about fiction. Aside from a minor appearance in Legacy, Nihilus appears in KOTOR 2; lacking a compelling explanation for how this character matters from an out-of-universe perspective -- and a Howard Stern goof doesn't cut it -- the article should be redirected to KOTOR 2. --EEMeltonIV 22:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The KOTORII article will just give a sentence or two at best for the character. BassxForte 23:22, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Which is entirely appropriate considering his lack of real-world notability. If you want to write or read an in-universe bio on this character, go to Wookieepedia; Wikipedia's policy is to focus on out-of-universe significance with only minor inclusion of plot summaries and the like. This article is almost all plot summary, and he's not much more than a background character; Wikipedia should "just give a sentence or two". --EEMeltonIV 23:24, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Real world notability?! He's quite possibily the strongest sith! how many other force-users could devestate an entire planet with their force powers?! No, Sidious doenst count because the Death Star is not a force power. Furthermore, Nihilus is about to get an action figure, along with Darth bane and a shirtless Darth Maul. http://jediinsider.net/g/index.php?mode=view&album=2007_SDCC%2FHasbro_Panel&pic=Picture18.jpg&dispsize=600&start=0 BassxForte 23:38, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
"Strongest Sith" and "devastating an entire planet" are in-universe plot pieces, not real-world issues. Getting an action figure would be a fine point to make in the KOTOR II article. --EEMeltonIV 23:41, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The concept of "strongest sith" was never used in-universe, it's doubtless that that's what many sith wanted but it's one of those out-of-universe extra bits, an action figure is another notable out-of universe piece of info, to be exact, Nihilus has had two action figures, he's also among these. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/championsgallery BassxForte 23:59, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

...am I gonna to get a response or not? Your last edit was just correcting one of your spelling errors. BassxForte 00:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, two action figures. So what? Why does he matter in the real world? Being made into a miniature isn't a benchmark for real-world notability -- I don't see many articles on "Old Republic Soldier" or "Dark Side Enforcer". Has this character been the subject of third-party press/coverage? Has it had some palpable impact on popular culture? Rather than repeat myself, I've opened the AfD, which you've already noticed. Go make your argument for retention there. --EEMeltonIV 00:26, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

If we need news coverage then we might as well delete this, this, and this just to name a few. BassxForte 00:31, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay. --EEMeltonIV 00:35, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

jeez, let people like you run around freely and no one would like Wikipedia's quality. BassxForte 00:36, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

oh, just love the message you left on my talk page, perhaps you should look at this and this. BassxForte 00:44, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The article has been prodded and the prod tag has been removed. That's the proper procedure for it, to be perfectly fair... EVula // talk // ☯ // 00:47, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Okaaaaaay, what is a prod anyway? BassxForte 00:49, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

More information. EVula // talk // ☯ // 00:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Well from what I understand, the prod didn't work, because I objected to it. BassxForte 00:55, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's part of the prod process. I was just making an observation, nothing more... EVula // talk // ☯ // 01:19, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it's pretty foolish to be caught up in the idea of 'real world notability', especially if that is the only real reason being brought up for deleting these articles. I would stick with using common sense and being able to tell that these are major characters from notable video games. If there were articles on such and such obscure NPC, then it would be much more justifiable to delete those articles, but articles such as this one should not be deleted just because of one line in the 'rulebook'. It would basically be impossible to implement the current standard of deletion that EEMelton proposes across a broad spectrum, and thus it is pointless to target the articles on a few pieces of fiction. Please come up with more standards for why these articles should be deleted before you continue your crusade, just so the rest of us can agree with you. 12.5.52.170 05:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it's pretty foolish to be caught up in the idea of 'real world notability' - Please read WP:N and WP:WAF. --EEMeltonIV 16:14, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

What deserves a page, a major antagonist in a video game, or that inn npc that only has two lines of diolouge? BassxForte 17:14, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Probably neither. If such a minor character does have an article, please either redirect it to the game, a broader article on all the game's characters, or delete it. --EEMeltonIV 20:45, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

That wasn't reffering specifically to Darth Nihilus, for a better example of what I meant, what deserves a page more? Bowser or a npc that was only two lines of diolouge in the entire game? BassxForte 21:02, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know the Mario world enough to judge whether Bowser is notable in either the video game or real world, and I'd say generally speaking an NPC with minimal involvement in a video game probably won't lead to real-world impact. Regardless, I'll once again point you toward WP:WAF and WP:N. If you have questions about an article's notability, bring it up on the talk page or, if it's a clear example of non-notable or otherwise unencyclopedic content, prod its editors or nominate it for deletion. --EEMeltonIV 21:07, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

As is mentioned on his page, Bowser is one of the most iconic vidoe game villians, that's real world notability, but we need not deal with that, we're talking about Darth Nihilus, not Bowser. BassxForte 21:50, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Well you brought it up and posed the question -- although I'm not sure what point or contention you're trying to get across. If you think this article is worth keeping, the link to the AfD discussion is at the top of the article page. I'm happy to continue this exchange with you there if you'd like to articulate a rationale, supported by Wikipedia policy, for this article's retention. --EEMeltonIV 21:58, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I made my thing there, in a little "comments" section, and if you can't accept Nihilushaving his own article my suggustion is the best option. BassxForte 03:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name "Citation"

Posted on my talk page by User:BassxForte:

"Darth Nihilus's name is derived from Nihilism. I'm re-adding the info now. BassxForte 16:34, 10 August 2007 (UTC)"

This is not a "citation"; this is an assertion without a source that backs it up, in other words, original research. Please WP:CITE a reliable source per Wikipedia policy that shows the character was named with this association in mind, and not instead after a programmer's pet lizard or an animator's college roommate. --EEMeltonIV 16:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I completely that there is a connection. But did the producers have the notion of "nihilism" in mind, as you wrote on my talk page? Or did they look at the Latin root, as you added on the article? Or maybe their inspiration was the nihilists in The Big Lebowski. Who knows? We don't; hence, we need a source. --EEMeltonIV 17:01, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

All Sith who have "darth" in their title have a names with a meaning, Traya (as in Darth Traya) comes from betrayal. Darth Sion, you'll find Sion is a suffic that means "break", fitting for his apperance. Other sith names, like tyranus, plauguis, and sidious are much clearer. Darth Malak, you'll find "Malak" is an arabic word for "angel", possibly refering to his status as a fallen angel of sorts, (he was once a valiant and rightous jedi knight). BassxForte 17:08, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Great. Says who? What's the source that identifies this practice as deliberate allusion, in particular with this character? --EEMeltonIV 17:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

How about the fact that nearly every "darth" sith's name had such a meaning? If you want to check out each darth seperatally, go here. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth#Darths_through_history BassxForte 17:24, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Wookieepedia is not a reliable source. --EEMeltonIV 17:32, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

It is a wiki, and when you want to know something Star Wars, it is always reliable. BassxForte 17:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Please read this wiki's policy on what qualifies as a reliable source. Does the Wookieepedia entry cite a real-world reliable source for its assertions? --EEMeltonIV 17:44, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say, nor did Wookieepedia say, that all darth's name had a second meaning, llike Zannah. BassxForte 17:45, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Rather than talking about all Darths, how about coming back to the original question: can you cite a reliable source that substantiates the claim that there is an allusion or intended meaning behind "Nihilus"? --EEMeltonIV 18:01, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The fact that with only a few select exceptions all sith names have a meaning. BassxForte 18:05, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you. But for inclusion in Wikipedia, assertions like "X means Y..." need to be cited to a reliable source. Please take the time to read the policies. --EEMeltonIV 18:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I've read them a long time ago, and what i'm saying doesn't violate them. BassxForte 18:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, an assertion that "Nihilus comes from 'Nihl'" or "Nihilus means whatever" or "Nihilus is similar to 'nihl' which can be translated to whatever else" -- without a citation to a reliable source, that is original research. And from another angle: like I said, I agree that the darth names carry some special meaning or significance -- just look at the competition to come up with Jacen Solo's darth ____ -- but if there's not a published source out there affirming it (or at least affirming it for Nihilus), then it probably isn't a notable piece of information worth including. "Nihilus means 'nothingness'" -- okay, so what? Why does it matter? Trivial. --EEMeltonIV 18:24, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

"trivial"? That's why it was put in the trivia section. BassxForte 18:26, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough; I should have written "inconsequential". But, even trivia (although it should be avoided) needs to be cited. --EEMeltonIV 18:37, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Almost all sith names mean something, and your trying to say Nihilus's name's similarity with nihilism just happened by chance?! BassxForte 18:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm not. Please go back and read the several instances above where I stated that I agree that the character's name is not random. What I am saying (yet again) is that if you want to include that assertion in the article, you need to cite it to a reliable source. --EEMeltonIV 18:48, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

All the darth names have meanings, that's your reliable enough source. BassxForte 19:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Um, right. You said you've read Wikipedia's policy on reliable sources "a long time ago" -- I think you need to review it. --EEMeltonIV 21:23, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, i'll need a little extra, but only a little. BassxForte 21:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)