Talk:Dark elves

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Contents

[edit] Swart Elves or Black Elves?

"In Norse mythology, the Svartalfar or the black elves (but literally "swart elves")" In modern scandinavian languages, "svart" means black, "swart" is the true cognate, but I would think black would be a better translation. (Unless someone would correct me with usages from old norse. I only know the modern scandinavian languages, such as swedish, dansih and norwegian.)

Actually, the English word "swart" is archaic and no longer in use. Like many archaic words, its definition depended on region and time period. Originally it likely meant the same thing as the Norse word "svart" (alternately transliterated as "swart"), so "swart elves" is an accurate literal translation. The modern word "swarthy", on the other hand, generally refers to a very dark brown rather than black. So either "black elf" or "swart elf" would be an accurate translation of "swartaelf", however "swarthy elf" would not. Also note that "swart" could mean the same thing as the modern word "swarthy" in some instances while it strictly meant "black" in others.
Really, this is an etymology vs. usage issue. Generally, when people speak of "literal" meanings, they're speaking of etymological meanings rather than slang -- so I would think "swart elves" (since alternate uses of "swart" whence we derive the word "swarthy" essentially began as slang) would be the most accurate literal translation while "black elf" would better reflect the common speech meaning. --Corvun 23:06, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually 'swart' is still in use (outside of 'swarthy' even), it may not be as common as dark or back, but anyone with half a brain knows what it means, and you'd find it in any dictionary. I have myself heard folk use it in every day speach, maybe it is a northern thing but the word is by no means dead! Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 15:37, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

"Swart" is a known word (and one I tend to like), but the only 20th century place I've seen it is in Tolkien. 66.20.170.4 (talk) 13:48, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Middle-Earth

In the Silmarillion it explains that one of the elves lives in a small forest seperate from the others, and the trees hardly let light through. The elf who lived here was called a dark elf due to living in the shade, not due to skin color. I don't have the book on hand...

I wouldn't doubt it. The same is true in Norse mythology. In Norse myth, Dark Elves avoid sunlight, while Black Elves live completely underground. Their names have nothing to do with either their character or appearance. It just so happens that light-avoiding creatures make the best monsters, is all. --Corvun 05:48, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

dark elves can be seen as the counterparts of the blonde elves, that being, dark elves lower then low elves, as blonde elves are higher then high elves. maybe this paralel should have a sentence in the article?--Lygophile 05:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

If you mean that being Cala- or Moriquendi has to do with hair color, or that Elves of one hair color are "higher", then you are mistaken. The distinction between Calaquendi (High/Light Elves) and Moriquendi (Dark Elves) has nothing to do with hair color. The Vanyar are High Elves and are typically blond. But the Noldor are High Elves also, but have black hair. 217.95.252.25 23:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
as i have read, blonde elves arent just high elves, there a type of high elves that are above all other high elves. they own the sercret to immortality or something. but i dont recall where iv read that. im not familiar with cala/moriquendi.--Lygophile 00:36, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trow/Drow/Trowe

The Orkneys and Shetlands have a more Nordic than Gaelic heritage, surely? Given that I think they're much more likely to be related to trolls than to anything in Gaelic folklore, just as trow suggests. —Ashley Y 02:42, 2005 Jun 2 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. In fact, I'd really like to see some evidence to back up the connection of trow and "black elves", drow and "dark elves" that's made here. It seems very like it's just being made out of convenience, with nothing to back it up. The whole section could do with a rewrite. Thorf 15:05, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I, too, would like to see some sources for these statements. :bloodofox: 05:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
As a regular visitor to the Shetlands (my mother is a native) I have never heard their 'dark elves' referred to as 'drow'. 'Trow' seems to be the common name of them there, and they are translated as 'trolls' when talking to non-Shetlanders. They also seem to be viewed as mischievous more than malicious as the article suggests, but unfortunately I have no sources to back this up. RossMM 15:07, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

all three of you need to look for the facts. In Matthew Bison's Rule Book version 7.2 it is put very clear that 'Drow' are the male species of dark elves, not trolls. i bet you guys still play with six sided dice. what dorks... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mammy0088 (talk • contribs) 05:45, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Warcraft elves

i dont think the night elves should be on this list. they are less dark then the wood-elves in warhammer. the're just nocturnal wood elves, not dark elves. also bloodelves are no dark elves. they arent necessarily evil, they just changed their plot to have an elven race added to the horde, and most elven kindred would distrust and dislike the blood elves for sure, being greedy and delving in the forbidden magic, but they arent evil. they would at worst be neutral.--Lygophile 05:15, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the Warcraft entry for these reasons and because they are never referred to as "dark elves." :bloodofox: 14:22, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sort order?

Is there any ordering in both the "Dark elves in fiction" and "Famous Dark Elves in fiction" sections? It seems to me all the entries are just randomly placed after each other. Perhaps a alphabetical ordering would be nicer? --Mighty Jay 18:35, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

It might be nicer. I think a chronological order would be even better, since reading through it would show how they have been used historically. Goldfritha 00:23, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Michael Moorcock

How about adding Michael Moorcock`s Elric to fictional dark elves? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Guzzleguts (talk • contribs).

[edit] Requested move

Dark elf → Dark elves — after much research the light elves and dark elves are plural in original Eddic texts, they hardly ever travel alone and the original Norse word is plural. There are existing redirects the admin will need to clear. I cannot move the pages myself without hurting the page histories. Thank you for your consideration in advance. Goldenrowley 18:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Tepid support. I am content with this line of reasoning. We use the same idea (grammatical plurals treated as singular topics) to put articles at Koreans, say, or Chicago Cubs. Dekimasuよ! 04:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Moved. I have, however, marked the article for merging with svartálfar, and it is unclear to me which of those two titles is the better. Stemonitis 10:03, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I would wish to keep the articles separate and then separate all the comments on Dark elves from the Black Elves (the articles do not do a good job of it right now) ?Goldenrowley 07:00, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Daoi-Sith

I removed the Daoi-Sith reference as the elves dont feature in celtic mythology and are norse in origin. Also the British folklore section was norse influenced in Orkney and Shetland and didnt spread to the rest of Scotland, England or Ireland. Its all a bit misleading to the reader and looks like the celtic reference is just being added for the hell of it. Blacksands 05:45, 10th May 2007 (UTC)

You are technically correct that elves do not appear in Celtic mythology. However, there are folktales from the Celtic countries that depict characters that share strong enough similarities with Germanic elves to be worth mentioning in relation to them. It seems likely that both du-sith and daoi-sith, whatever their meaning, are largely derived from Norse folklore, but the fact is that both terms are Gaelic in origin, and are at least nominally Celtic. I would suggest at least mentioning the terms in the Scottish section. Belzub 15:01, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, I haven't seen any objections so far, so I cleaned up the references a bit and put them back in. I've also changed "Norse Influenced Scottish Folklore" to the more general sounding "Scottish Folklore" so as to include the Gaelic aspect as well as the Norse. Belzub 21:24, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Dark Elves in fiction

Also, is it really necessary to have 21 different examples of dark elves in fiction? It makes the page seem kind of messy. I reckon a fair few could be removed. Belzub 21:28, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and removed a few of the more unnecessary fictional entries. The majority were either sparse and barely relevant, or descriptions of fairly generic dark elf concepts. I've also trimmed the warcraft entry down to a link to the relevant article. Belzub 15:44, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
I've removed all of them and put them in their own article, which is unified with the examples from related articles (Drow, Trow, etc). Can we keep it this way?Andy Christ (talk) 23:57, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Famous Dark Elves in Fiction

I also removed one of the entries for Famous Dark Elves in Fiction, namely Shadow Darkfire. The description of the character, as well as the poor formatting, spelling, and grammar of the entry implied to me that it was someone's character on Gaia Online, whom they decided to add to this page on a whim. Therefore, I thought it was safe to consider it not notable enough to be included in this list. Executor32 (talk) 11:21, 5 December 2007 (UTC)