Talk:Dark electro

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[edit] electro-industrial

i've always held 'dark electro' to refer to a strain of electro-industrial. does this term really merit it's own article? the page also states "term used mainly in central Europe". even if the term is more of a defined genre there, you have to remember that this is the english wikipedia and has to write things with the english speaking world in mind. --MilkMiruku 00:28, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

mainly doesn't mean completely...the term is an international term...
look
Dark Electro isn't electro-industrial...there is a great difference. And electro-industrial isn't EBM... the english wikipedia is really strange.
BTW: The english (and any other) wikipedia is an international wikipedia. And articles should be international! --Menorrhea 01:41, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
fair enough on the international point. electronic body music and electro-industrial need to be seperated, but i had an extremly hard time cleaning up the ebm page when trying to find references to define or describe 'electro-industrial'. 90% of people i know in the goth/bleep scene call electro-industrial bands 'ebm' (see the last.fm user tag pages for skinny puppy and wumpscut for examples). and when people do distinguish between the two styles, they refer to electro-industrial as 'electro', a genre name that was taken by the electro subgenre of hip hop a decade before (although some are sensible and use the spelling 'elektro'). i would argue that the priotiry on wikipedia is to seperate ebm and elektro articles first and have a mention on the latter to the term 'dark electro'. --MilkMiruku 12:00, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


In germany its the same problem. Mostly, acts like Suicide Commando or Hocico are called "EBM", but thats a mistake, created by the Club DJs or the party flyers. The real EBM era covered a time of 11 or 12 years (1981/82-1993). On the basis of the new sound of Front 242 (especially "Fuck Up Evil") and Nitzer Ebb, and the arising Techno House boom in Europe, EBM died in 1993. A new wave of EBM started about 2000/2001 in Sweden and Germany.

Your "electro" is IMHO called "electro funk", but elektro is a term, used first in germany (in many magazines), belgium, brazil and other countries for the music of X Marks The Pedwalk, Abscess, Individual Totem etc., an offshoot of electronic and industrial music (look there).

The cause of this: In the '80s, every kind of electronic music was called "Techno" (e.g. Kraftwerk with "Techno Pop" etc). In the '80s, Techno meaned "technological music", nothing more. In the time of Techno (House) in the early 90s, the original Techno music (Depeche Mode, Kraftwerk, Nitzer Ebb etc.) was renamed to "Elektro". First, Elektro was a generic term and shortly after, in the late 90s, Elektro became more and more a music style with harsh electronic sound and a Techno (House) influence (with the typical Boom-Boom bass drum) including groups like Aghast View, Feindflug, Funker Vogt etc. These bands use a part of typical distorted Techno House sounds. The german act Funker Vogt and the mexican act Hocico coined this hybrid of electronic/industrial + techno house.

The real electro-industrial sound doesn't use techno sound, because its electro-industrial, not techno-house-industrial. And Dark electro use complex sounds and rhythm structures and atmospheric soundscapes, a really important act was YelworC. YelworC inspired many of these groups (here it's called "Aggrotech") like Hocico, Aslan Faction etc... --Menorrhea 13:05, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

BTW: Maybe i should use the Aggrotech term for the german wikipedia. IMHO, Aggrotech means aggressive techno(-influenced) music, and that is a better term to describe the modern music of Suicide Commando & co. --Menorrhea 14:47, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
although the electro article mentions that it and electro funk are one and the same, this is incorrect and one of the things needing to be sorted out on wikipedia (Ishkur's Guide has some good samples of each genre). i agree that the term 'techno' was used as a general umbrella term by many in the 1980s, akin to how 'electronica' is used today, but i'm afraid your use of 'techno' and 'house' is kind of confusing me. the first house subgenre, chicago house, emerged from a mix of post-disco music and other styles in the early 1980s, which, along with electro and synthpop went on to influence detroit techno in the mid-1980s, the first proper techno subgenre. then house and techno influenced each other and eventually many new genres including trance appeared on the scene. while ebm came from industrial and disco and mainly stayed seperate from mainstream dance (house/techno/trance), i'd agree with you that elements from those genres have fused with ebm and electro-industrial to greate genres like futurepop, aggrotech, etc. generally the musicology and history of a lot of the electronic music genre articles needs updating; a lot of them are just lists of bands or only describe specific sides of the story regarding what influenced the music --MilkMiruku 16:41, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, there is a misunderstanding within the techno history. The first term in 1989/90 to describe the modern Techno (with the boom-boom bassdrum) was "Techno House", because this form of Techno is a fusion between many styles of the '80s Techno (e.g. Detroit Techno, New Beat, Synthpop, EBM, Industrial etc.) and the House music (Chicago or Acid).
Do you know the Acid history? The first mention of Acid wasn't as "Acid", but "Acid House"... later the term was shortened to "Acid". And "Techno House" was shortened to "Techno". Its really a little term chaos.
The Techno of the '90s is not a pure american thing, it's a thing worldwide. Frankfurt, Berlin, Rotterdam, London, Sheffield, Tokyo and many more... the techno of the '90s is a global phenomenon, developed on the basis of an intensive musicstyle exchange in the late '80s. You know, many musicians don't know genre limits. Signal Aout 42, a belgian EBM artist, mingled his EBM sound with Acid House. The same with Bigod 20.
Bigod 20 was a pure EBM artist, but in 1988 after the group had released "Body To Body", the second maxi was a hybrid between EBM and Acid House (the maxi is called "Acid To Body")
In the UK, there was a Front 242-inspired group called Electro Assassin (the same musicians of Johnson Engineering Co. and Solar Enemy). Electro Assassin coined a hybrid between EBM and Electro Funk on their album "Jamming The Voice Of The Universe". A really strange thing, but very good. --Menorrhea 17:28, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
re the first paragraph; are you refering to tech house? and yes, i know the acid history :) (i noted it in the recent addition to the techno article and i'm also aware that techno (and many other originally region specific genres) is a worldwide thing now and i'm very interested in genre cross pollinisation. the history and musicology of different styles of music is something that fascinates me, and one of the things about wikipedia is that many of the pages miss out how that particular style came into being so is something i've put a fair ammount of effort into sorting out. like the way that you can draw a line between genres old and new, like how chicago house begat detroit techno which influenced acid house which in turn influenced acid techno then acid trance artists, which then flowed into progressive trance, a style that then merged with nu skool breaks (itself a descendant of various breakbeat genres) to become progressive breaks. it's weird to hear how these subgenres that have developed fairly seperatly from ebm/electro-industrial eventually have merged back into alternative electronic music, not only giving the obvious ebm/trance combo of futurepop, but that you can listen to the likes of mind.in.a.box (both albums really) and rotersand (esp. 'dare to live' and 'undone' on welcome to goodbye) and hear the styles of progressive trance/breaks influencing their work. btw, thanks for the artist tips, they sound interesting and i'll shall give them a look out soon. --MilkMiruku 18:48, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] IS A VALID TERM?

I don´t know if this term is used nowadays. HOCICO, for example, were catalogued by themseleves (or their record company) as Dark Electro in mid 90´s. Now, everybody use the term industrial/EBM for these guys.

It's a term from the early 90s. In this time, Hocico were little schoolboys with damp diapers. Forget the kiddies of today... they call any shit EBM or Goth or Industrial... they don't know the history of electronic music, they don't read old interviews and they don't hear old music. But they think they are supercool & hard 'cause they hear Hocico, X-Fusion and other kiddy techno... --Menorrhea 18:28, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I never heard the term "Darkelectro" used in respect to bands like yelworC and the likes. In those days these bands were called "electro-industrial". The first time i heard the term "darkelectro" was in respect to Suicide Commando and their (his) offspring. To me THAT is the original darkelectro, and Grman, US and British DJ's use the same term. I never heard Mike Kanetsky from the matrix in Bochum use the term "darkelectro" in respect to yelworC, and we are both end thirties and involved in teh scene since the 80's.
So i recommend changing this page to name the real darkelectro bands like Hocico, Grendel, Suicide commando and the likes. Maybe i make an account on the English wikipedia to correct this misconseptions. I have always feeled reading the sideline forum that the term "darkelectro" is annexed by a few grumpy old skool EBM fans, who can't stand the fact that Hocico is the talk of the town, instead of their favorites. Well, that's progress i think. Given Menorrhea's response above here, i don't think he is unbiased enough for wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.60.28.71 (talk) 09:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
You cannot add your POV, the article uses references from the early 1990s. Look to the wrong Dutch article, which has not any reliable source. The Dutch article only represent the POV of a Dutch DJ. --Breathtaker 13:08, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Btw: Don't forget, Hocicos music is strongly influenced by the music of yelworC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Breathtaker (talk • contribs) 13:17, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
A dutch DJ's who knows and DJ's with a lot of foreign DJ's who all don't recognize the article here. Apart from a few disgruntled people on the sideline forum, i never have seen the term "darkelectro" used in respect to bands like yelworC. I think it is in retrospect added by some people who seem to have trouble with the newer generations of EBM. If i go the the german community darkelectro.net all i see is bands like suicide commando, hocico, grendel, agonoize and the likes on there. On teh dutch article references are named on the discussion page, which gives a few links to partyorganizations, reviews, DJ's and organizations, who all coin the term "darkelectro" to the current generation harsch EBM bands.
To add some proof:
http://www.darkelectro.net/board/index.php?sid=
http://www.last.fm/tag/dark+electro
http://www.kindamuzik.net/achtergrond/va/donkere-ondergronder-een-kwartaal-in-gothicmuziek
http://www.myspace.com/anthalia
http://85.119.240.192/vampireparty.com/pages/news.htm
All mentions of darkelectro in respect to the newer generation EBM.
So as far as i, and other people in the Netherlands are concerned, the Dutch page represents the actual situation. Apart from that: I know quite a lot of these bands personaly. I never hear them coin the term "aggrotech", they all classify themselves as "darkelectro" of "harsh EBM".
Buy the music magazines of the early 90s. You'll find the first mention of the term "Dark Electro" in connection to the first yelworC album in 1992. It's the first mention of the the term. Side Line is a funny magazine. I own a handful of their 1990s print magazines... and there, the term Dark Electro has been used for the music of yelworC, Object and other Dark Electro pioneers.
The music of Agonoize, modern Suicide Commando and other groups is known as Hellektro. --Breathtaker 13:52, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Btw:
No, it is also known as "Darkelectro". "hellektro" and "darkelectro" are the same kind of music. The only reference i see is reviews of the same CD in a music magazine on the page, while i gave you 5 completely different pages all supporting my case. I think one review of a journalist who apperently just coined a term without reference isn't suited as proof. We had that in the netherlands a few years ago, when some dutch reporter coined the term "vet geluid (fat sound)" to acts like blackstrobe or alter ego.
And i just took out my copy of "Brainstorming" by yelworC. Apart from the apparently dated production it is not really far removed from the current darkelectro of as you say: hellektro bands. Wouldn't it be the case that yelworC as well as leather strip are the first darkelectro bands, and that the current generation is their offspring? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.60.28.71 (talk) 14:08, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Dark electro has a complete other sound. There is no techno influence. In Hellektro/Aggrotech (whatever) you can find a strong influence of dance, goa and techno sounds. And yes, Hellektro is an offspring of Dark Electro. Hocico, Aslan Faction ect. are influenced by yelworC. But all of these Hellektro groups produce another form of music, a more harsh and danceable sound. They don't really use atmospheric soundscapes. --Breathtaker 14:16, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
The techno influence is irrelevant. ALL current EBM is influenced by Techno. ALL current EBM has a more harsch and dancable sound. This is the logical course music took over the years. The ideas though, are still more or less the same. when yelworC made "Brainstorming" techno was a relatively new style of music, with much less impact on production techniques than nowadays. By the way: most current darkelectro (nu skool darkelectro :D ) uses similar soundscapes in the music. Hocico comes to mind here. Only the dance component is more obvious, but that is a trend seen in all kinds of music nowadays. I say the sound is the same, only time and techniques has made the genre more dancefloorfriendly. But if i take a yelworC song like "sacred city" and modern darkelectro? musicaly there is very little difference.
Oh, by the way, you gave a link to amazon above. I found this one: http://www.amazon.de/DarkElectro-Party-Playlist/lm/R3QAJ8GHV588KA Not really a reliable source that amazon, tight? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.60.28.71 (talk) 14:28, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Not really. Ionic Vision, CAP, and early Dupont sound like Pouppée Fabrikk in the early 1990s and Spetsnaz sounds like Nitzer Ebb. But all of these EBM groups have nothing to with Hellektro. The music of Agonoize, Hocico and others isn't EBM. EBM is defined by pumping DAF sequencer lines. Deutsch-Amerikanische Freundschaft was the first group which used the term "body music" in 1980/81.
Btw: Why can't people use new terms? They misuse old terms for any techno crap. There is no fucking Old School EBM and there is no fucking Old School Dark Electro and there is no fucking Old School Goth. It's EBM, Dark Electro and Goth. And if there is a new music style, new terms should be used. And the new term of your music is "Hellektro", first used by the Agonoize side project Virtual Embrace. --Breathtaker 14:51, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't think bands who deliberately strife to return to an older sound can't be included in this discussion. And it is also a fact that Ionic Vision and Spetsnaz tour with and know current nu skool EBM bands, and recognize them for what they are: EBM bands. And there is no use in using new terms if the old ones are just as good. Nitzer Ebb is EBM, Front 242 is EBM, Suicide commando is EBM (Johan says it himself, and i know him), Hocico is EBM (i know them as well), Grendel is EBM (Jos is a good friend of me, and he talkes about how he loves OLD SKOOL EBM, and that he makes DARKELECTRO.). Being stuck in the 80's sound doesn't give you the right to make up new names or use new names bands use in a tongue in cheeck manner. EBM is apart from the basslines also defined from the syncopated rhytmns, the accent on count 2 and 4, and the use of minor melodies. And if what you say is true (and it isn't) we also should stop refering to front 242 as an EBM band. And they where the ones using the actual term "Electronic Body Music made by..." on their "no comment" album. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.60.28.71 (talk) 15:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Breathtaker, Wikipedia is not the place to promote your own personal, idiosyncratic view of what genres "should" be named. --Delirium 21:32, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
And Wikipedia isn't the place for POV of a Dutch DJ. His fucking music style is called Hellektro, not Darkelectro. --Breathtaker 00:23, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Completely agree. There seems to exist some Dutch guy that wants to usurp the whole of wikipedia by blurring dark electro and hellektro. BULLSHIT .... Calva and the likes in the early 1990's were dark electro, Hocico etc is hellektro ... This Dutch guy - whom I do not know - is getting on my nerves ... REALLY getting on my nerves .... and polluting the Dutch speaking wikipedia with historical anachronism. To the people in charge here: maybe you should look into this one man's crusade ? Dark electro is NOT the same as hellektro, just as heavy metal is not the same as power metal... Dutch wikipedia is embarrassingly mistaken ... and renders wikipedia - once again - an uncritical, childish image. In the early 1990's, the term dark electro was only used for dark electro and not for hellektro. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wrkhrphmw (talk • contribs) 01:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I might be getting on your nerves, but i proved my point in above discussion, while all you do is whine, and apart from a review in Zillo (biased) you are not able to prove your point. And then there is the fact i know most Darkelectro (and i mean Tactical sekt, Grendel , Hocico and the likes) acts personally. You obviously dont. You are just some guy making up some genrenames without proper knowledge from bands and labels themselves. This is no POV, these are actual FACTS.

Furtermore: Power metal is a subgenre of heavy metal, and therefor power metal is heavy metal. So darkelectro is a subgenre of EBM, and therefor it is EBM. Is that so hard to understand? djkrat —Preceding comment was added at 11:13, 20 May 2008 (UTC)