Talk:Daredevil (Marvel Comics)

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Good article Daredevil (Marvel Comics) was a nominee for good article, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
March 8, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed
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Contents

[edit] Archives

[edit] Powers

Doesn't anyone do research? DD doesn't have super agility or strength. Here's proof.

http://www.manwithoutfear.com/ddORIGIN.shtml http://www.marvel.com/comics/Daredevil http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/d/daredevil.htm

I'd say they have researched those pages, most of the text in the Powers section is copied from the marvel.com site. DrHacky 14:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
In that case Marvel are rewriting the past which should also be recorded in the article. In his first book about Marvel comics Stan Lee himself states quite clearly that Daredevil was supposed to be the complete antithesis of Spiderman. He has no super powers, his 'real self' is actually a persona he created to please his father, Daredevil is his 'real real self', both his strength and his agility are entirely his own, and his one "Super ability" is in fact a "Super disability". Now to me that last bit's a little contentious, but my opinion is original research and there's no doubting what Lee's intentions were.

Isn't his location sense more like radar than sonar? In the handful of DD comics I've read, they specifically called it "radar-sense" and I never saw him have a need for sound in order to see (like in the movie). I'm not as familiar with DD as I am with other Marvel characters, though, so I could be wrong. JDspeeder1 01:03, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

See talk below under Radar--DrHacky 06:57, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Plot summaries

Before this gets any farther out of hand, please, as regular editors, read the WP:COMIC consensus on plot summary, Wikipedia policy on plot summary (#7), and Wikipedia's styleguide to fictional articles. Summaries should be kept to a minimum, per Wikipedia policy, and only used to help readers understand the real-world aspects of the character or work. Primary sources (like the comics) should be used sparingly. This article has possibilities, as much of the article is kept to out-of-universe discussions of the character (at least relative to articles like Magneto (comics) or Wolverine (comics)), and I'd like to see this article someday become featured, but if we start summarizing arc by arc, it's not going to happen. I know this may come off as possessive or pretentious, but plot summaries with no secondary analysis are against Wikipedia policy. This is why I'm posting here before trying to make any drastic edits or cut out anything that may just get reverted.

If you want to write about Daredevil as if he is a real person, this is not the place to do it. It infringes on copyright and gives no basis for understanding the character to an uninformed reader. --Newt ΨΦ 15:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Boy, this article has too much detail. For example, a story like Daredevil: The Man Without Fear which has its own Wikipedia entry should have little or no detail here. Doczilla 16:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Doczilla. The Bendis/Maleev portion is way out of hand. It needs to be a much shorter, summary-style section suitable for lay people seeking information about the character in an encyclopedia. Fannish-level detail is inappropriate, and best suited to the many terrific fan sites out there. I can cite the same chapter and verse on the Comics Project examplar page, etc., as Newt ΨΦ does above, or can we save the time and reinsert an older, more streamlined version of this section.
We've all had this debate before, and the consensus of both the editors and Wiki mediators is to use the shorter version. -- Tenebrae 04:46, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Why hasn't anyone taken up my pleas for help by removing all the character bio stuff from Pub History into Fictional Biography? Plot descriptions have no place in Publication History! It should only be information salient to the book as a real world object - creators, publishing timeline, etc. GodzillaWax 09:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with GodzillaWax. The pub-hist section should focus on the creative teams, give map directions to the numbering scheme, awards, etc., and only noting plot events that, for instance, temporarily change the cover-title. The tricky part, then, is to take the other information currently there and integrate it with char-bio without including too much unwieldly detail and minutiae. -- Tenebrae 17:22, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Marvel Ultimate Alliance

Daredevil is a playable character in Marvel Ultimate Alliance. He is pictured in the Team Builder[1] section of the Marvel Ultimate Alliance website[2]. It is rumored that he must be unlocked before he is playable according to Marvel Ultimate Alliance. Bondswalterppk 23:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fictional

I notice the title of a sub-section has been changed to "Fictional character biography" from "character biography" - why? surely people understand what the word "character" means? --Charlesknight 21:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:WikiProject Comics/exemplars, which is a one-stop must-see for all of his WikiProject Comics folk! --Tenebrae 00:21, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Overhaul

This page has been stagnant for a long time, even though as far back as 6 months ago big changes were agreed upon. So I've started the butchering to get everything together. Changes:

  • Fixed some tense issues in Origin, and rewrote some things ( I first wrote that stuff probably 8 months ago and it needed to be tweaked ).
  • The creator list was big and strangely incomplete -- e.g. listing 'no regular writer, 1985-1986', that kind of thing -- so I've condensed it down to just links to categories. There's no need to be redundant with creator listings ( especially an incomplete one ) when a category takes care of it for you.
  • Moving character history stuff out of publication history and into the fiction biography. This is definitely NOT COMPLETE. A LOT of work has to be done here. Publication history should only be notable developments with regards to creative teams, the status of the book ( cancelled? renumbered? ), and issues of that nature. Character biography should be the closest thing to plot summaries this page has.

I'd appreciate any help in getting this all under control. Like I said, I've started the moving around process, but now things need to be fleshed out. Cheers GodzillaWax 20:38, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I removed a lot of the excess headers. Many of the sections were only one paragraph long, and it cluttered up the TOC. CovenantD 20:52, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Past Tense / Reverts

Wiki-newbie, please do not just blindly revert the origin section anymore. You may have been trying to change the tense of what I wrote, but you also wiped out a lot of sentence changes and updating.

Additionally, your assertion that there is no past tense in fiction is flawed. Suggestions high school English teachers give for making creative writing essays more readable does not translate into how one should recount the details of a fictional characters life. The section heading is 'fictional character biography'. What biography have you ever read that was written in the present tense? The whole point is that what is being retold happened once already. GodzillaWax 22:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Though I hope I don't create any bad feelings, the tense to be used for fictional character biographies actually gets addressed as an editorial guideline at WikiProject Comics here. --Tenebrae 15:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sexual Frustration

It is a valid theory that Daredevil is sexually frustrated and cannot win the affections of the Punisher. The theory has been brought to light many times; can't it be included in the article? What style is appropriate for such an insertion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.28.71.162 (talk • contribs)

Your comments would be taken more authoritatively if you would follow the rules of Wikipedia. This includes, at the most basic, reading directions on the edit page that explain how to sign your posts.
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. If you were discussing string theory, for example, you would have to cite an authoritative source that references an authoritative theorist, such as (hypothetically), "Dr. John Smith of Harvard published a theory in 1995 that posited a multi-dimensional universal principle called 'string theory' that scientists Dr. Jane Doe and John Roe further postulated in 1998 explained the existence of 'dark matter'...", with proper footnotes. If it's your own, theory, however, that's disallowed under the guideline "No Original Research". --Tenebrae 16:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

It is not my own theory. It was suggested by a comic book enthusiast with a master's degree in psychology. Procedure means nothing to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.28.71.162 (talk • contribs)

Obviously. Why don't you go vandalize a phone book or something? CovenantD 20:19, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Your comments are unappreciated and unnecessary. Why don't you take a typing course or something? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.28.71.162 (talk • contribs)


the simple answer is no we are not adding that - until or unless it appears in a marvel comic book or similar source. "some bloke said" is not a source. --Charlesknight 16:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually, it would preferably appear in a reliable secondary source, comic articles rely too much on primary sources as it is. --PsyphicsΨΦ 20:27, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
true true but I suspect if Daredevil 99 had the line "oh Frank, how I long for your big hard cock" that such a discussion would be moot. --Charlesknight 21:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
people people please we all know dare devil is not gay he loves elektra and it's been proven and 66.28.71.162 YOU'RE STUPID understand your masters degree is more than likely fake you probably faked it —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jackjohnson15 (talk • contribs) 16:42, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Genius

Has anyone every got any conversation out of the 172.XXX editor who keeps trying to add in that Daredevil is a genius? --Charlesknight 10:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

None here. The guy's an obsessive and clearly doesn't play well with others.--Tenebrae 15:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link to "Unproduced Screenplay"

I'm deleting the link to an unproduced spec script - there are surely lots of these out there, and more notable. Why include this one and no others? --Chancemichaels 16:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)Chancemichaels

[edit] "Good people come in all colors shapes and sizes"

I just wondering. I'm Roman Catholic. I was talking with so ppl who think Daredevil is a bad character because his name had the word "devil" in it, but other say that it don't matter because he's a hero who fights for what's right. I think it doesn't matter what your name is or how you dress, it matter what you fight for and weather you're a good person or not. What do you guys think?

Without evil, there can be no good. The devil ain't so bad after all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.232.242.232 (talk) 05:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox text.

The caption for the infobox picture reads: Totally gay promotional art by Alex Maleev for cover of Daredevil vol. 2, #41 (March 2003) Am I correct in assuming that the phrase 'totally gay' doesn't belong? I'm taking it out. Valencerian 19:10, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Early life.

The graphic novel Yellow by Jeph Loeb would seem to be in stark contrast to the origin presented in The Man Without Fear by Frank Miller. Yellow presents his classic Silver Age origin, while The Man Without Fear brings it into the 80s. Which one is the proper version? I know Marvel doesn't use multiple origins and versions like DC, so one must be wrong. Feb 07 MH

Neither is wrong, largely due to the fact that these are fictional stories. They're all right. There are lots of small variations in the retellings of the origins, and Marvel has even put out its Mythos line of books, which combine comic book and movie origin details and add more. It will only matter the next time it's written about in the comics. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 09:14, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Worth nominating for GA status?

...This article's now been graded as "A", so is considered one of the best articles within WP:CMC - which means that it probably has a decent shot at getting Good article status, if a couple of things (such as the citation requests on the fictional biographyand a redlink or two) can be resolved first. Even if it doesn't make GA status, there should be some useful feedback. Opinions? --Mrph 18:35, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Right then. Nobody's screamed stop, and although the article's not perfect it's looking pretty good. Let's see what we get back... --Mrph 21:10, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quickfail

I see five categories at the bottom just screaming at me:

  • Articles lacking sources from February 2007
  • All articles lacking sources
  • Comics articles needing issue citations
  • Articles with unsourced statements since February 2007
  • All articles with unsourced statements

Check these sort of things before nominating guys.--SeizureDog 21:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Needs Cleanup

Most of publication history and fictional character biography still need work. I harp about this every few months without actually contributing much, so apologies, but it still needs work before it should be considered a model of anything. GodzillaWax 16:27, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recurring characters

I'm confused as to why someone feels that citations are needed for Gladiator and Jessica Jones, but not for any of the other characters in the list - especially the latter, as her line is much the same as Luke Cage's ('was a bodyguard for him') but his line hasn't been deemed in need of a citation.

My gut feeling is that all of the characters should have a citation, or none of them should. Otherwise how does one quantify which ones to cite and which not to?

[edit] Sources For Biography?

How can anyone put a "needs to cite its references" on the fictional character biography? That's fairly asinine. There's 40 years worth of comics that are being summarized in a few paragraphs - theres no way individual issue citations could or should be added. GodzillaWax 16:29, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Daredevil's identity known

How many people actually know Daredevil's secret identity? Is Spider-Man among those who know? if so, when Did he find out and do they both know each other's secret identities? - RVDDP2501 00:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Daredevil recognised Spiderman's heartbeat when he met Peter Parker. At some point Spidey must have found out about DD's ID because he knew that getting a message to Matt Murdock was getting a message to Daredevil. Since I never saw how he found out it may have actually been a writer's blip... Deke42 (talk) 17:08, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bendis?

Why is it that Brubaker and Lark have their own section, but Bendis and Maleev don't? Furthermore, why does it stop chronicling Bendis's run after Milla left and suddenly skip over to Brubaker's with only a minute mention of how Bendis's ended?--CyberGhostface 00:41, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Becuase the article needs massive amounts of work. GodzillaWax 18:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I'd suggest that for consistency the subhead be changed to reflect not any particular writer/artist but the fact that the title went from a special imprint back to the mainstream line. Just suggesting. --Tenebrae 15:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I disagree, as articles on works of fiction are supposed to be written from an out-of-universe perspective, and one of the best ways to do that (in my opinion) is to have the subheads split by writer so the article can talk about how each writer handled the character. H. Carver 11:16, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
That's a valid point, but it's also an out-of-universe perspective to discuss it in terms of mature-reader imprint vs. mainstream imprint. --Tenebrae 14:11, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] marvel knights

WTF is Marvel's grittier heroes should it be greater or what? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jackjohnson15 (talk • contribs) 16:37, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] This strikes me as bogus

In the publication section there is the following

"The team specifically addressed societal issues, with Murdock, now running a non-profit urban legal center, confronting sexism, communism, racism, dwarfism, spoonerism, and nuclear proliferation while fighting supervillains. Nocenti introduced the popular antagonist Typhoid Mary in issue #254."

I'm not a Daredevil expert, so I'm not sure what part of this is true and what is false. But I'm pretty sure dwarfism and spoonerism don't need to be there. I defer to the Daredevil fans. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Avatar of Justice (talk • contribs) 17:30, 6 May 2007 (UTC).

It was 99% about fighting against poverty and for people who couldn't afford legal representation. I don't recall any dwarfves or communists and spoonerisms is obviously just vandalism. --66.58.211.104 02:51, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I tracked it down. It was vandalized by User:66.28.71.162 on April 18. I've reverted it and put a warning on his page.--Tenebrae 03:47, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I removed the part about racism, sexism, and nuclear proliferation (the hell?) and it seems to have been reverted. It was part of some vandalism, why would it be reinstated? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.58.211.104 (talk) 07:48, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Origin

Daredevil's origin is usually explained as "radioactive waste" spilling from a barrel on to Matt's eyes, but in Daredevil 164 Matt describes it as a small radioactive canister that looks more like a plutonium rod, colliding into his face to produce a blinding explosion. Why is the "radioactive liquid waste" origin more prolific than the "radioactive canister" explanation?

The cannister smacking him across the eyes is the only explanation from the comic books, the getting drenched in goo thing was from the movie --66.58.211.104 17:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fictional character bio

I removed the material in this section about writers and artists because my WikiComics Project guidelines and exemplar, "Fictional character biography" is an in-universe section, and all the real-world writer/artist background belongs under "Publication history". Virtually all of the inappropriate material was also redundant with the PH. This additionally solves the problem of the "Brubaker/Lark" subhead, since the FCB should never have had a real-world, out-of-universe subhead in the first place. --Tenebrae 18:59, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the name

I've come across an instance of the name "Matthew Murdock" in comics before the publication of Daredevil #1- specifically, as a murdered man in the July 19 1942 issue of Michael Eisner's 'The Spirit', "M-U-R-D-E-R". It would seem to be a stretch to assume that the two writers came up with the name independently, especially given the extent Eisner's work influenced later comics. Is this solid enough to include, or do I need more? -Toptomcat 07:09, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Radar

This has been mentioned a couple of times in the talk archives, but the current version of the page says his "radar sense" is based on his hearing.

...he can "see" by means of his "radar sense", in which Daredevil is able to listen to any sound (even that well below the normal human range of hearing), and use it to "see" a three-dimensional construct of his surroundings. However, unlike sonar, Daredevil does not have to make a sound in order to see, and is able to use the ambient sounds of his surroundings to the same effect.

As far as I remember from the comics, his radar is a separate power and it was only linked to his hearing, as sonar, in the movie.

The marvel.com site (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Daredevil_%28Matthew_Murdock%29) supports this-

Along with the enhancement of Daredevil’s normal senses, he has gained another sense which he calls his Radar Sense. According to one theory, this sense reacts to an emission of electromagnetic energy a mutation in his brain has caused, reading the reverberations of this energy as a 360º, 3-D map of objects.

I don't recall any explicit explanation of this in recent issues, and have never seen anything about a brain mutation, but the sound-based radar is IMO wrong. Can anyone quote an issue to support this? DrHacky 14:42, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Daredevil v1 174- the Miller run, during the first encounter with the Hand- Daredevil loses his radar-sense, but retains his hearing. That's enough evidence that they're separate senses for me. -Toptomcat 01:34, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
  • I've undone Cthulhu1254's replacement of the traditional description of Daredevil's powers as Radar Sense based on what I perceive to be the general consensus on this talk page as to the general feeling of what his power is called AND how his power is described in the books published by and webpage of Marvel Comics. I've been reading Daredevil for years and don't recall his mutated radar sense ever having been described as based on sonar (although its an interesting theory). I won't get into an edit war over it. If my revert is reverted, I will leave it to others to hash it out, but I think the unilateral change to calling it a sonar sense when the books and web-page and fans all call it radar sense is just POV rather than encyclopedic information. --Markisgreen 06:13, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I think everyone should just agree to call it a "radar sense" and leave it at that. --Jmscstl

I was wondering about this, actually, as I read through the article. If what's written under "powers" is accurate, that DD can dodge bullets by "sensing" them or the shot firing them, then that ability can't be hearing based. Sound travels roughly 1100fps. Modern firearms can nearly triple that speed. You hear the shot after it passes. Either the setting has tweaked the speed of sound or something else is behind the ability.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.50.102.179 (talk • contribs)

There is a reason to that. Murdock doesnt hear the bullet, he hears the firing mechanism. That is why in "The Murdock Papers" The sniper who was 5km away was able to shoot him, as he did not pick up its location until the bullet was to close to dodge. It would take about a second to get a good sniper reload right. That not only gives murdock awareness to the bullet, but it gives him time to move, as the bullet can take up to a second to reach him. marcwagz

[edit] Civil War

I didn't see a mention of Daredevil's lack of/involvement in the Civil War. I say lack of because I don't remember seeing him. Did he get up to anything in CW, and what is he up to now? {{Unsigned|86.128.80.

Matt Murdock himself isn't involved in Civil War. He was featured in the Civil War: Choosing Sides one-shot in the Iron Fist segment and the SHRA is mentioned in, I think, Daredevil #89. Danny Rand, masquerading as DD, did fight in the war on Captain America's side and is featured as such, although outside of the Cable and Deadpool series, he is treated just as Murdock would be and no hints are given to show that Murdock isn't in the costume. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.214.118.250 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Vandal

Some jerk registered as User:Freddyape vandalized a footnote on May 19, in three edits beginning here. I only just now found and fixed it, but let's keep an eye out in case he comes back. --Tenebrae

[edit] Daredevil should be an "Expert Martial Artist"

From childhood he was trained by stick in his own brand of martial arts that has proven to be more effective than conventional martial arts on multiple occasions. If you have read the kingpin of hells kitchen you would have to agree that nobody could survive 107 yakuza on brawler skills. Notice his more frequent use of pressure points and defense than even wolverine or captain america.

Gladiator(Daredevil Villain) is rated as an expert martial artist, and daredevil has proven to be better than him.

MarcWagzMarcWagz

[edit] Frank Miller Quote

In too much of a rush to add this in myself properly; I believe it is indicative of the 'more realistic turn' many feel Frank Miller brought to DD (also brings up the character's Catholicism, which I didn't see mentioned in the article but is linked in the categories and is simply an awesome quote):

"I figured Daredevil had to be a Catholic, because only a Catholic could be a vigilante and an attorney at the same time."

– Frank Miller, History Channel; Comic Book Superheroes Unmasked: Comic Book Superheroes Unmasked.

Richard Paez Richardpaez 13:37, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Women In Refrigirators

Unless someone big/noteable specifically referenced the whole 'Women in Fridges' debate re: Daredevil's love interests, then I think the whole reference should be deleted. Random gripings by some blogger, which could be well-written, is not Wikipedia-worthy, IMHO. Lots42 13:35, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Daredevil100.jpg

Image:Daredevil100.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 08:15, 27 October 2007 (UTC)


Whoever changed it to say daredevil has echolocation knows nothing about the charachter... Ugg. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.194.111.181 (talk) 19:18, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Matt Murdock image

I think it would be good if we could get an image of Matt Murdock without the costume here. WDavis1911 (talk) 18:25, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

That makes enormous sense. As well, the SHB image I believe goes against MOS, which dictates as clear a straightforward front image as possible without background elements. Certainly, an image by Gene Colan or Frank Miller, his two signature artists, wouldn't be inappropriate. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:15, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:Daredevil poster.JPG

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