Talk:Dardani

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[edit] Dardha and Dardani

Albanian dardhë has not been derived from any Proto-Indo-European root, so it appears to be an isolated word found only in Albanian, though other words with that Dard- form (but with different meaning and from different roots) exist. Decius

I am not sure there is a PIE root. Latin and German languages use a word related to Latin "pyrus" (Romanian "pară", French "poir", English "pear", German "Birne" etc), while the Balto-Slavs have a root somethning like "krusha" (Slovenian "Khrushka", Russian "Grusha", Lithuanian "Kriaushe", etc). Bogdan | Talk 09:21, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I want to identify the first known person to suggest a link between dardhë and dardania so I can mention him/her in the article, and mention when the connection was proposed. It will also remind people that the suggested connection is a recent connection, and not a hoary old tradition passed down, which would have given it more credit. Though the lack of such an old tradition does not mean that the idea itself is wrong.Decius 09:50, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've read some information, that if accurate, is quite convincing in favor of Dardania deriving from Albanian dardhë: [1]. The part about Bertius, mapmaker of Louis the XIII of France, naming the region Pirustae on his map (perhaps from Latin pirus=pear-tree) and the fact that there is a Slavic toponym in the heart of Dardania that also supports the idea (>Krusevac, probably from krusa, 'pear'; the Serbian word for 'pear' is kruška), added to the fact that "it has been remarked that in contemporary times pear-trees abound in the area" are enough to make me favor the Albanian case. Decius 05:01, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I removed Julius Pokorny's speculation from the article. He suggested that the Balkan Dardani ethnonym derives from PIE*der, 'to flay, tear', but he only based this on similar formed words that are known to derive from this root. Yet the similar forms might just be a coincidence, and Pokorny was probably wrong, as he has very often been shown to be wrong and off-the-mark in his derivations. Decius 05:06, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This Albanian etymology of Dardania fits my ideas concerning Albanians: that they are descended from Balkan tribes that lived in the area of the Balkans that was between the Illyrian (west) and Thracian (east, and north) spheres in ancient times (though Thracians and Illyrians were very much present in Dardania as well) , and that their language should show heavy Daco-Thracian influence as well as some Illyrian influence. Dardania was immediately north of Paionia, and the Agrianes, a Paionian tribe according to Thucydides, also lived in Dardania. Decius 05:20, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

In Julius Ceasar's De Bello Gallico, book 5, there is mention of a tribe called the Pirustae who were causing trouble in Illyricum. A variant form of pirustae appears to be pipustae. Decius 06:07, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The Serbian city of Krusevac has nothing to do with pears. The city was built by Knez Lazar in 1371, and the city was given its name after a type of rock which was used to build much of the city. - 07:41, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Interesting. S. S. Juka's site is not that reliable, and I take everything with skepticism. I also take your info with skepticism: what type of rock was it? Decius 02:17, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

According to the article Krusevac: Its name stems from the word for "bread" in Serbian. 10:41, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So, we have a choice between 'pears', 'rocks' or 'bread'. Wonderful. Decius 10:52, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Not sure if this is of any use, but the Ossetian word for pear is kardo. Edrigu 00:00, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Isn't it possible that the Dardanians were neither Illyrians nor Thracians, and unrelated to either of them? Edrigu 20:51, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Ancient greek mythology refers:Illyrius had six sons whose names were Enchelus, Autarieus,Dardanus, Maedus, Taulas and Perrhaebus.So it is possible that Dardania was named after Dardanus.Dardanos 18:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Kruševac, a town of rich tradition and several centuries long history, is situated in the central part of Serbia. King Lazar started building it around 1374. There are 2 legends concerning the name of the town. According to one, it was named after the many pear trees ('kruška'), that were abundant in these regions. According to the other, the name came from the kind of stone called 'krušac', which was taken out of the river and used for the building of the medieval town. 1.KRUSEVAC IS NOT IN KOSOVO BUT IN CENTRAL SERBIA. 2.NO WORD "DARDHE" HAS BEEN FOUND IN THRACIAN OR ILLYRIAN LANGUAGE.

IE initial *gh- > Alb. d. dardhe 'pear' Gk. axpabs -6.os 'wild pear'; IE *nghrds, Alb. type *ghards. - dore 'hand' :Lat. (Sabine?) hir 'hollow of the hand' ...

Better to check an etymology lexicon for dardhe http://www.google.gr/search?hl=el&q=nghrds+ghards&btnG=%CE%91%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%B6%CE%AE%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%83%CE%B7&meta= Dardanos 19:23, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map is not proper

The map given is of the roman provinces......Megistias (talk) 13:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Balkanized

The term balkanized doesn't seem appropriate."Balkanization is a geopolitical term originally used to describe the process of fragmentation or division of a region or state into smaller regions or states that are often hostile or non-cooperative with each other".Another is needed.Megistias (talk) 21:28, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I am going to unlink that, because I don't think the term was meant in the context that the article describes. BalkanFever 09:11, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Borders

How can Dardania correspond to modern-day Kosovo when Skopje, Niš and even Ohrid are in the territory? This has also been mentioned at AN/I. BalkanFever 09:17, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't. That is a mistake and needs to be fixed. --Tsourkpk (talk) 19:03, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The idiocy about connection in between the name 'Dardania' and Albanian word for peer

'Dardania' is an ancient Greek term, and not a term derived from language of its natives, the same we today call Albanians Albanians, although they call themselves Shqiptars in their language, while the very word 'albania' neither means anything in their language, nor have they ever used it do designate themselves.

The word for 'peer' in modern Albanian (dardhë) is a mere coincidence. For instance, the words 'dar dan' literally mean 'a gift (that is) given' as well in modern Serbian, as in old-Slavonic, yet no one with an ounce of brain in their head would conclude that 'Dardania' means 'The given land'. As if someone tried to use modern English to explain the word 'Slav' being derived from 'slave', or 'German' being derived from 'germ'. Or 'France' from the word 'free', as a matter of fact. The most absurd thing is that the ancestors of modern Kosovo Albanians haven't populated the territory of Kosovo until 18th century and Great Austrian-Turkish war. 77.46.167.218 (talk) 17:26, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

A related discussion is here, but for "pear": in Kosovo talk archive —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.102.251.165 (talk) 01:04, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Remove this thingdiffMegistias (talk) 18:54, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, but the reference cited in that passage (Robert Elsie) is a reliable source and presents the etymological link as a serious hypothesis. (There is a bit of an ambiguity in Elsie's presentation, in that he says that Çabej proposed an alternative IE etymology for the Albanian item than that first proposed by Hahn and others, but he isn't really saying whether that new hypothesis also includes the ancient name.) In any case, I feel the removal was a bit premature. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:31, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tribe names

One tribe is Thunatae and the other Galabrii.Not as they are now in the texts.Thunaki Galabrii.Redirects or something.Megistias (talk) 21:43, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Its ok ,I did bothMegistias (talk) 12:21, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] insane footnote frenzy

See no. 44 at User:Moreschi/Wikithoughts, Wikimorality, Wikiphilosophies. Try not to be silly. --dab (𒁳) 12:15, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] False etymology

It is my impression that the name "Dardani" is an exonym, and that the etymology deriving from the Albanian word for pear is therefore pure coincidence. And no surpirse, the source for this is our old and thoroughly discredited friend Hahn, from the mid-19th century. There does not seem to be any evidence to suggest that the Dardanians called themselves as such, and what they called themselves is a mystery since they left behind no written language. This etymology is highly dubious and is very similar to all the other Albanian pseudo-etymologies I've come across in Wikipedia (the name Alexander comes from Albanian "A le si ander", "born of a dream", the name Illyrians from the Albanian "I Lir", "the free", etc, etc ad nauseam). I have seen so many bullshit Albanian etymologies on wikipedia that it seems to me that it is possible to come up with an Albanian etymology for just about any name these days. --Tsourkpk (talk) 19:05, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's certainly open to doubt, but as the cited source shows (which is beyond doubt a legitimate RS) it is seriously discussed by the experts. By the way, if the word was a pure exonym, wouldn't we expect it to have a more transparent Greek etymology? And what about all the other neighbouring peoples, why would the Greeks have invented all of those names out of thin air? Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:10, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

So why exactly is that possibilty removed from the article?Amenifus (talk) 07:49, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Dardanians were Thracians that gained an illyrian charakter later.The name is either a Greek exonym, an Illyrian name,a Thracian name.The Greek and Thracian possibilities are more plausible and all 3 should be mentioned.Megistias (talk) 08:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I do not know which is more plausible, but surely all should be mentioned.The connection of Dardania-Dardhe in Albanian is still considered possible, certified by linguists, and people shouldn't just stick it into the Alexander"Le si ander" nonsense category.Amenifus (talk) 08:07, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

And albanian is not Illyrian so its 4 versions.Megistias (talk) 08:08, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm surprised.I didn't know you could speak illyrian.And since there still are quite a few scientists still supporting an Illyrian-Albanian language affinity,whether that is faint or solid, no version is considered outdated.Amenifus (talk) 08:15, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Irony wont help.Albanian is has no established link with Illyrian and Illyrian,Dacian,north Thracian possibilities are all open for albanian.So its 4 varieties for the etymology since Albanian language is not Illyrian and maybe any of the above 3.Megistias (talk) 08:18, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

You're in a slight miscomprehension here.I'm not pushing an Albanian POV.All theories are considered possible until proven otherwise.Stating that Albanian is NOT illyrian while also stating that it possibly is seems a bit misleading to me.Amenifus (talk) 08:26, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I did not mean that,we should mention if we can Thracian,Greek,Illyrian and Albanian since there are sources to it and however and to whatever language they may connect this word as plausible.But the source for Albanian is from 1854.Megistias (talk) 08:29, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

And assuming that an ancient warrior tribe were called pear-men by themselves is kind of silly.The Dardapto Greek exonym(to tear...) seems more appropriate.Megistias (talk) 08:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

The question what the ethnic character of those guys was is pretty irrelevant to the question of the etymology. Especially because it could be an exonym, from whatever other language. Let's stick to the etymology question. Are there any other concrete proposals in the literature, besides the one that happens to be the same as that of Alb. dardhë? Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:55, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

We are referring to language affinities not actual ethnicities.I doubt we can connect it to Thracian or Illyrian since the attested words are so few.Megistias (talk) 08:59, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

The alb dardhe is more a "tradition" from 1854 then a proper explanation but its still reserved due to the fact that we know so little of thracian and illyrian languages.Megistias (talk) 09:10, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

And is there any point in talking about these things, based on the literature? I see an awful lot of free speculation above. Can anybody actually cite something from the literature? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

No just the material that was already in the article .The lack of material in illyrian and thracian language is pretty important too.Megistias (talk) 09:23, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Put the Greek version as well and a comment on Thracian and Illyrian language.Megistias (talk) 19:17, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

What Greek version, is there a Greek etymology proposal? I asked you before, has any etymology other than the pear one ever be proposed? Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:22, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

It had the Greek exonym possibility .It was in.Thats why i said "what was in"Megistias (talk) 21:30, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Robert Graves connected Greek δάρδανος "burned up" (from the verb δαρδάπτω dardapto "to wear, to slay, to burn up".The Greek Myths by Robert Graves, ISBN 0140171991.

On the word if it was a Greek exonymMegistias (talk) 21:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

If it was this they would be called "slayers" by the Greeks and something we dont know by themselves and if it was the Albanian and if the Albanian was Thracian or Illyrian and fit the name with the Protoalbanian word they would be called Pear-mean or Pear-tree men.Αχλαδάνθρωποι it seems kind of silly.Megistias (talk) 21:35, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Robert Graves? Why would a poet be a reliable source on etymologies? The article on him even mentions that his attempts at inventing etymologies were met with rejection by scholarship. Sounds dubious, unless it can be shown that proposal has been taken seriously by the actual experts. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:37, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Δαρδαπτω does mean exactly what he says in Liddel scot as well.I should have mentioned the word but he does link it.Megistias (talk) 21:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

And it is a Greek name not only in mythology but as a real persons name Dardanus of AthensMegistias (talk) 21:45, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Since the name is known to be Greek it could simply be a Greek exonym for the tribe like for the Ceraunii.Megistias (talk) 21:49, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I give up too little is known and to many languages are involved.Thracian,Illyrian,Greek exomym,Albanian IF it is thracian or illyrian....Megistias (talk) 21:57, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I read the article on Graves, and in addition to "poet", it also states that he is a "scholar" and that "Although some of his unconventional interpretations and etymologies are dismissed by some classicists, they have provoked more research into the topics he raised." Note the use of the qualifier "some" twice in the sentence. His widely acclaimed work on the Greek myths is certainly a work of scholarship. In any case, Greek exonyms for Illyrian tribes seem quite common, and for a tribe considered warlike, an exonym based on "slayers" seems to me much more plausible than an endonym based on "pear tree men". --Tsourkpk (talk) 21:59, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, this section started with you complaining about uncritical adoption of pseudo-etymologies, and now you yourself place your trust in Graves just because somebody on Wikipedia called him a scholar? I like this review here, stating that "The barmy etymologies that enliven Graves’s index of names are the product of nothing more than amateur self-amusement with a Greek lexicon". Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:53, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Not that this really means so much to me, but then just out of curiosity, how would you explain this Dardanus as well as this Dardanus? Not from dardhë again? Since most names in Greek mythology have a Greek etyomology, it is reasonable to assume that there is a Greek etymology for this mythological Dardanus. Furthermore, the definition of δαρδάπτω is from Liddell and Scott, not Graves, and it does mean "to wear, to slay, to burn up". So there is very good reason to believe that there is a transparent Greek etymology, as you put it earlier. As for Graves, we could find all sorts of rants or raves about him (as we can about pretty much anyone). The point is, he is considered an authority on Greek mythology. I for one find it more probable that "Dardanians" is an exonym and that the ancient Greeks named a tribe after one of their mythological characters (as for example Tros and the Trojans) as opposed to naming one of their mythological figures using the endonym of a tribe whose language they seem to have rather poor knowledge of. --Tsourkpk (talk) 01:03, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea. But Graves doesn't seem to the most qualified place to look. As for the definition of δαρδάπτω, that of course has never been an issue (just as the definition of dardhë in Albanian) – it's the proposed link that needs to be reliably sourced. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:56, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

• For one the Dardanians of the Balkans have nothing to do with the Trojans, we know that.
• The name is a Greek exonym or a similar looking word to the Greek name that had another meaning in the languages ,Illyrian or Thracian.
• If the Proto-Albanian(PA) word applied it would mean
• They called themselves pear mean ...
• The PA could correspond to an Illyrian term.So its pear in Illyrian.
• The PA could correspond to a Thracian term.So its pear in Thracian.
• But PA could be Dacian so the term would be wrong

Megistias (talk) 08:29, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

And this syllogism is found in the literature exactly where? Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:42, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Nowhere,its a minor issue of no importance .Its self evident.They were Thracians or/and Illyrians the word is attested in Ancient Greek as well and if Albanian is Thracian or Illyrian the pear would apply. Megistias (talk) 08:53, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Thraco-Illyrian"

I'm a bit confused about the context in which the term Thraco-Illyrian is used in this article, as if to imply that Thraco-Illyrian is a valid ethnicity. The Dardani could not have been "Thraco-Illyrian" because such an ethnicity did not exist. The Thracians and Illyrians were two distinct unrelated ethnic groups. Illyrian was a centum language and Thracian was satem. If the Dardani were a mixture of Thracians and Illyrians, they still would've spoken only one of those languages, and would thus be classified as Thracian OR Illyrian. In fact there is no conclusive proof that the Dardani were either Thracian or Illyrians, they could've been neither! Edrigu (talk) 00:13, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Historians say they were a mix of both.There's nothing else to it.Amenifus (talk) 08:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)