Talk:Dar es Salaam

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[edit] Hard to find info on Dar es Salaam

why is it so hard to find information about this city? Revolución 19:42, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it is that hard to find information on Dar es Salaam. --Semkae 16:42, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Neither would I - but then again, I live in Dar-es-Salaam. If you want any information about the city that a resident could give you, then just drop me a line on my talk page Nish81 20:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why Arabic?

Why do we have an arabic version of the name there in the opening sentence? This is an English wikipedia after all... Sbwoodside 08:03, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I assume it is because Dar es Salaam is an Arabic phrase. The equivalent is not unusual on wikipedia. I believe that language translations like that do (occasionally) enhance the article — however, I can understand that some people may find Arabic characters disturbing (Arabic numerals are apearantly fine) — but if it is an issue, I promise to find the correct wikiclause to quench your worries. --Ezeu 15:52, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I found the source: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Arabic) a proposal for policy. I have opened a discussion on the talk page ... I'm not keen on this idea. It's not so much that I find arabic disturbing, but I think that the vast majority of english readers of this article cannot read arabic. So, to introduce arabic character right there as the second word in the article is going to put people off big time. Is it relevant or useful information? I don't think so, but I'm open to being convinced. Sbwoodside 19:27, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I added the transliteration to run alongside the Arabic. However, I think the point is that the city's official name is in Swahili, not Arabic. The name might be derived quite directly from Arabic, but it isn't truly Arabic. This can be seen by comparing the Swahili with the Arabic: something that would be impossible if we didn't have the Arabic. However, I find the argument against prominent use of native names alongside English customary versions a little disturbing. I feel that encyclopaedia articles should not appeal to the lowest common denominator (it doesn't matter if most people cannot read Arabic, but it is useful information, and it does come with a transliteration). I find it almost xenophobic that we might consider banning the official name of a place from its article on the grounds that most English-speakers cannot read it. --Gareth Hughes 22:17, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Apparently you've never heard of loan words. "Vis-a-vis" for example, is French, regardless of whether the term is also used in English. There are a lot of Arabic loans in Kiswahili, and that doesn't make them less Arabic. Dar es Salaam is Arabic. Get over it. --76.217.92.82 20:31, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Dar es Salaam is bastardized Arabic, I guess; I've always been told it stands for "Haven/Place of Peace." It's not Swahili, whatever the case.

I did some research on the subject of the origin of Dar Es Salaam. The book "Dar Es Salaam" by The Tanzania Society (TNR Tanzania Notes and Records 71 from 1970) states that:
"Dar es Salaam is popularly believed to mean "the Harbour (or Haven) of Peace" - from the Persian-Arabic Bandar-ul-Salaam (Swahili Bandari ya Salama) ... However, this derivation of the name can be challenged on both linguistic and historical grounds. In the first place, it is not likely that Bandar, with the accent on the first syllable would have been contracted into Dar. Moreover, contemporary records of the City's early years - the late 1860s - rendered the name simply as Dar Salaam, meaning "The House (or Abode) of Peace (or Salvation). This more likely derivation was supported by a visitor in the 1880s, who noted how the name had already been misconstrued, and who also indicated that the Swahili form Dari Salama was that originally chosen by the City's founder, Seyyid Majid, Sulta of Zanzibar. Whether this was entirely correct, whether the name was meant to refer to the Sultan's palace specifically or to the new town in general, and how closely Majid was really likening Dar es Salaam to Paradise, we shall probably never know. Nor is the matter worth pursuing further."
The text references earlier TNR publications 3 and 19, from 1937 and 1945 respectively. Since I don't speak the language, I can't be a judge of whether it is useful to include the Arabic version of the name. Someone versed in 19th century Arabic would be better suited for that. Also, adding that alternate theory of the origin of the name could be worth doing - does someone have a source that refutes this one?
As an aside, the Haven or Harbour of Peace translation seems to by far the dominant translation in my experience - there's even a school called Haven of Peace in northern Dar Es Salaam. CarlosCoppola 12:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Carlos quotes one of the few sources that translate the name correctly. Haven/harbour is a very stubborn nonsense which is perpetuated nowadays also by this wikipedia-article. As it has been spread so far there should be a mention of the popular error. The Arabic script can be transliterated in different ways (one or two "a"s in the last syllable; hyphens just for convenience to show the three parts of the expression, they do not really matter), like dar-as-salam, dar-al-salam, dar-ul-salaam, dar-us-salam or with colloquial pronunciation as in our case dar-es-salaam ("l" before "s" is pronounced as "s" but written "l" - thus the different transscriptions) . The name thus is by no means unique; دار السلام is a well known expression in islamic culture. In legal thought is has been used as another expression for "dar-al-islam" (house of Islam) as opposed to "dar-al-harb" (house of war - the nonislamic countries which have no treaties with Muslims); its use is also political meaning that an islamic area should be a peaceful place - thus the official name of Brunei being "Brunei Darusalam". Somewhere I saw that it has also been used to denote "paradise" (like in the above quote) but I cannot confirm this. --Kipala 12:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photos

The gallery of photos would be better off on a Commons page, and we can link to it with a Commons template box. — Matt Crypto 10:45, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Formerly Mzizima"

Is it proper to say Dar Es Salaam was formerly Mzizima? As I understand, Dar Es Salaam just enveloped and incorporated the Mzizima village, just as it later did Msasani. Does anyone have a source the Mzizima claim?

[edit] Info deleted from Dar es Salaam (region)

Just wanted to note that I deleted 2 paragraphs on the region's page that were exclusively about the city. I added them to the talk page there if anyone wants to check them out and see if there's anything to add here. --Galaxiaad 01:18, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Culture section & NPOV

The Culture section fails to give any insight as to why such conflicting views of the town are mentioned. It also fails to give sources to comfort the views given in that section. This thus render the section POV-pushing and IMO doesn't reflect reality. Lincher 20:36, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

It is true that the section is unreferenced, but I don't see any POV pushing. Which are the "conflicting views"? The Wikipedia policy WP:NPOV requires, by the way, that if there are (significant) conflicting views, then all are mentioned. Can't the tag simply be replaced by {{unreferenced-section}}?  --LambiamTalk 16:15, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Population

I'm just back from Dar, and I was told - there - that the population is actually 4 million. Any other offers on the current population of the city? raining girl 10:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)