Talk:Dancehall

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Dancehall article.
Article policies

Contents

[edit] Redundant Nonsense

rather than making an edit that'll be undone without checking it, i'm posting here- please be aware that the following segment is very poorly written, unsourced, and dealt with in the following section of the article. for future reference, using words like "hence" and "cosmology" don't give credence to an otherwise unjustified (and frankly, nonsense) train of thought.

"Dancehall is just short of being a movement, but does have the characteristics of a cosmology as it is a culture and a lens through which people see the world. This cosmology and cultural phenomenon carries with it a linguistic component. Terms such as "bun" in the Dancehall, which is Patois for "burn", do not carry with them a very literal understanding as it may in European cultures. Hence, phrases like "bun sodomites" will not mean, to literally burn sodomites, but function more as a line of dissent: it is an exaggeration used to indicate serious disapproval." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.81.195.141 (talk) 04:03, August 23, 2007 (UTC)

english please72.27.140.121 (talk) 21:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Movie called "Dancehall Queen"

http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0127497/

[edit] 11/22/04 Edit of Dancehall

Reason for my edit of Dancehall:

  • There was just too much unnecessary habitual, repetitive, berating of the subject of Jamaican journalists' negative view of the genera. The point has already been made clear by the reference of Ian Boyne. If anyone wishes to take this further please start a new article about Ian Boyne describing his views about Danchall.
  • Again unnecessary and repetitive points of homophbia found in the music. For example, one quarter of the article was about Peter Thatchell (gay activist). Again if you want to go in depth about this, please start another article about Mr Thatchell detailing the resaults
  • Lastly the socialist bit has to be verified. If anyone has facts that will support this please make it available.

Thanks.

- Alister 00:43, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Dancehall vs Ragga

As far as I can see, the ragga article and the dancehall article do not say what's the difference between the two genres. To me it always seemed that dancehall is a more general term that also includes styles like lover rock and other modern reggae music without chatting/toasting/rapping. However, that doesn't seem to be the difference. But what is the difference then? I think it is the more general term, but if ragga is any kind of digital reggae, what is dancehall then? Maybe all modern reggae and not only reggae with digital production. Verify please. Wathiik 08:00, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Well I've always inderstood Dancehall as a genereal term for a particular sound to hype up a dance - or at least that was, what I believed to be, the original term. What we know today as Dancehall became the main sound in Jamaica - so it was a natural thing to call Dancehall -and it probably will forever now. I remeber a BBC documentary, where Conxone Dodd talks about his earlier sound which were playing at Dancehall's.

However - Raggamuffin (or Ragga) was and still is to some extend - the term used for Danchall in the UK. Remember Daddy Freddy & Asher D's "Ragamuffin Hip-Hop" from the late 1980s. Fashion Records released "Heavy Ragga Hip-Hop" series in the early 1990s and Greensleeves "Ragga Ragga Ragga!" series running from the early 1990s and are still running. Escpecially Greensleeves feature all the hyped names from Jamaica and still call it Ragga as the title. So to me Ragga and Dancehall is the same. The term ragga is just not as commonly used as it was. Jonas Bæk 08:31, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

--- It's actually simple: there's old school dancehall and there's digital dancehall (ragga). Dancehall began in the mid- to late '70s when the bass and drum began to dominate reggae and DJs and sing-jays started to become prominent (Barrington Levy, Eek-a-Mouse, Philip Frazer, Johnny Osbourne, Yellowman, etc.). See Trojan Records' Dancehall Stylee and Let’s Go to the Blues: Dancehall for Lovers, neither of which sound like today’s dancehall. Modern, digital dancehall (ragga), which basically replaces the drum and bass with computerized rhythms ("riddims") began in 1985 with Wayne Smith’s “Under Mi Sleng Teng”. “Ragga” is merely a regional (European) term for digital dancehall.

That is a very good explication of the difference, you should put it on the dancehall page itself. be sure to emphasize that ragga is very much a regional term. Reggaedelgado 21:13, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

To put an end to the confusion. Ragga is merely the British ( More specifically, English ) term for Dancehall music. Particularly from the mid to late 80's, up to when the term Bashment became common currency. The term Ragga in it's British usage may have indeed influenced Jamaican music, especially when one considers the importance of Britain as an importer of it's product, both because of the Jamaican community that has existed in Britain since World War Two; and because of the influence of it's culture on the indiginous white British. Particularly youth sub cultures such as Mods ( 63 to 68 ) and Skinheads ( 69 to 71 ). One or two records that were big hits in Britain did contain ' Raggamuffin ' in the lyrics. The first example of ' Raggamuffin ' in the lyrics of a Jamaican record was in the mid 1970's with Jah Stich. By the way the conclusion of the homophobic aspect of Dancehall music, all that cosmological nonsense, was ridiculuosly subjective and biased.

A London Jamaican record buyer since 1969. Sellasie I

O.K yes, it was biased in sense of a And yes, Ragga seems to be British (like my fav roots ragga Macka B) but to my ear, ragga seems more agressive and DnB/Hip Hop influencing and influenced. Yes, yes dancehall culture of sound systems is "a long way" but it`s not like U-Roy being out there much today. I see more of slackness, and yes, gaybash, that gives a bad name to reggae. --Rastavox 22:44, 10 November 2005 (UTC)


--- Ragga is also the name for the strident playing that occurs when the tempo increases within a dancehall song. Merging dancehall with ragga seems like it would cause confusion. --Member of a dancehall band

Strident playing? I'm not sure what that refers to, but I do know that reggae songs don't really change tempo pasrt way through. And after 15 years in the business, I've never actually herad that term before... perhaps this refers to the "mix," where the song breaks down and all the instruments play the rhythm as opposed to the melody for a short period. (A popular example would be in the song here I come (broader than broadway) by barrington Levy). Reggaedelgado 15:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] The Buju part in the end was confirmed false information. He was never arrested for such causes, Amnesty was wrong here.

[edit] 60ies Dancehall

As far as I know the term Dancehall was used just in the 60ies for Ska and Reggae music / events. Trojan Records also uses this therm for 60ies danceable Skinhead Reggae. Dubwiser

[edit] Dancehall facts

FYAH BURN?

Sometimes it means "to purify" but not always in Dancehall lyrics. Capleton is crazy about it, but I prefer Morgan Heritage`s usage as a spiritual purifier.

Good Fyah burn contraversy article http://www.jahworks.org/music/features/fire_burn.html

Dancehall is a slackness music - similar to hip hop and no matter how Rastafari they look, Sizzla, Capleton, Buju ... are not and never will be ROOTS REGGAE artists, and they just used Rasta talk to boost records sells. Comapare Buju`s Boom Boom to his Hills & Walleys.

There is a "roots revival" or "roots dancehall" movement present in artists like Luciano, Bushman, Turbulence ... a movement which started with late Garnett Silk.

Dancehall is generaly all about the girls, dance and anti-gay. But you should include such cultural events as Dancehall Queen competition and new dances presented on "How Fi Dance Reggae DVD" www.howfidancereggae.com

As far as I can hear ragga is more different DJ-styla like singjay oposed to dancehalls hard toasting of Beenie Man and more social consciouss. Listen Macka B or Gentleman compared to Beenie Man or Elephant Man. Also ragga seems to be more influenced on old roots reggae and DnB rhytms while dancehall rhytms are more digital, heavy bass and hip-hop like. To be more precious, dancehall DJ-style and rhytm created HIP HOP (See DJ Kool Herc page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kool_DJ_Herc

There is much schovinism, both male and female, but girl singers like Cecile, Lady Saw and Tanya Stephens tends to be more consciousness and talking in favour of girls in conservative society.

Sizzla, Capleton and Buju are quite violent on stage and in real life. Sizzla was several times accused for having illegal firearms, calling on killing ALL white people (`all white subjects out of Africa in his lyrics`. Gay lobbies are aware of this and have translated his lyrics from Patois which is reason of many unpleasent things for whole dancehall community. See www.outrage.com

Sean Paul is notably the most popular (but doesn`t mean the best) Dancehall DJ (note: DiskJockey is original name for Toaster, not MC) which has boosted a lot of popular riddims on charts (Suprise Riddim, Buzz Riddim ...) altough other artists had better works. Similar is with Nina Sky and Coolie Dance Riddim, today remembered as "Move Ya Body". Sean Paul www.seanpaul.net

Dancehall is completely Riddim Driven thing without artists as composers, which is not the case with roots reggae.

I would most strongly disagree with your last statement... First of all "Riddim Driven" is the name of a sly and robbie album, fraturing a number of what would be considered "roots" artists. Secondly, current artists remain composers just as much as older artists. The musical scores (to use fancy talk) were always created by the band or even more frequently just re-versions of older, established riddims. Artists (I assume you mean singers) frequently contributed nothing but their own voice (sometimes original lyrics and tunes, sometimes not) and as early as the 70s did so in the studio over recorded music tracks (usually artist after artist using the same pre-recorded riddim track). Lastly, to say that moder producers are not artists is rediculous, it would mean that only roughly 20% of modern music involved artists at all! Reggaedelgado 08:43, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Labels

... Or record companies.

TROJAN is not a good example.

They mostly replublish old good roots reggae

The VP Records is the home for mostly dancehall and most of good new roots reggae.

www.vprecords.com

May Jah Bless You

Listen to the roots, not to the slackness.

--Rastavox 00:19, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dancehall a Type of Reggae?

Eh? Since when? Says who? By what classification? In other words, what's the source for this? Hairouna 01:09, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

That is a an old argument that will scarcely be settled here. Good point though – however, the best we can do vis-à-vis the eternal schism between those who say dancehall is a sub-genre of reggae and those who refute it, is to explicate the schism in this article. --Ezeu 01:25, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] merge?

I put a merge suggestion on this because there seems to be some desire for it amongst editors, and because the "difference" between the two is not clearly explicated in either article (and it certainly should be). perhaps the two articles could merely be improved to the point where they made reference to each other and yet retained explicit differences, but right now I don't think that they do. Any takers? Reggaedelgado 06:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


YES, merge the two sections! It should be called “Dancehall”, and it should be split into two distinct sections. There needs to be a differentiation between "dancehall" and "digital dancehall" (ragga). Dancehall began in the mid- to late '70s when the bass and drum began to dominate reggae and DJs and sing-jays started to become prominent (Barrington Levy, Eek-a-Mouse, Philip Frazer, Johnny Osbourne, Yellowman, etc.). See Trojan Records' Dancehall Stylee and Let’s Go to the Blues: Dancehall for Lovers, neither of which sound like today’s dancehall. Modern, digital dancehall (ragga) began in 1985 with Wayne Smith’s “Under Mi Sleng Teng”. “Ragga” is definitely a regional (European) term and should be used only as a note within the larger dancehall context.

[edit] Needed Changes

I think this article needs several changes. 1) Explanation that the terms "bashment" and "raggamuffin" are european in origin. These terms are not used in jamaica. 2) The section that claims there are 2 high points in dancehall music is highly subjective and should be removed. --Selector rebellion 16:42, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

May 9, 2006 Bashment and ragammuffin are very much used in Jamaica. My edit commented on the importance of dance to dancehall and also the versatility of dancehall music because of its simplicity of structure. The Galliwasp May 9, 2006 (UTC)


I am jamaican. Those terms are not used to refer to dancehall as a genre in jamaica by any means. Bashment basically means party. Raggamuffin is a uncivilized type of person. Neither term is used in jamaica as a synonym for dancehall.--Selector rebellion 05:38, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I once asked a Tanzanian dj friend the difference between ragga & dancehall. he said ragga is more uptempo & more masculine. warrior music. if girls can wind slowly to it, it's not ragga. I enjoy the music. I'm not a dj, composer or any kind of expert on it. Tim, Australia

[edit] More Needed Changes

"Musically, dancehall has a very basic, almost caveman rhythm that allows it to embrace a wide variety of melodies, musical styles and instrumentation. On the diwali rhythm Wayne Wonder can croon the ballad "No Turning Back" and beside it, a deejay can chant "Meet Me At The Party", which is a straight dance tune. This quality makes dancehall more versatile than reggae."

Seriously, who wrote the above? Caveman rhythm? Have you ever met a caveman before? This section is rediculous and I am removing it. --Selector rebellion 05:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


"Dancehall has energised Jamaican popular music because it has spawned dance moves that help to make parties and stage performances more energetic. Many dance moves seen on hip hop videos are actually variations of dancehall moves such as the butterfly, the bogle, the blaze blaze, the pon the river, pon the bank, and the dutty wine."

The first sentence of the above is also highly subjective and does not belong in an encyclopedia article. In a magazine, it would be ok. Encyclopedias give facts, not opinions. The second sentence does not even belong in the same paragraph. --Selector rebellion 05:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] clean up/nice up!

So, I re-added the clean-up tag, because I think it is appropriate for a number of reasons. First of all, itis evident that we have a clash of various points of view/opinions/philosophies of dancehall, and the way that is currently expressed makes for a very disjointed article. Are we talking about a style of music? Or do we really want to try to explain it as a philosophy? Personally, I think we should focus on it as a style of music, as dynamic as that is. Certainly we should allude to the "cosmology" of the scene and its status as a "movement," but this should all be done as a coherent whole. It currently reads almost like a point-counterpoint article, which is not that cool.

Secondly, there seems to be no consensus as to dancehall's relation to reggae—I see it as entirely a sub-style of reggae, but I know that many roots adherents do not. Further we (and the reggae world, perhaps) needs to decide how we wish to deal with the proliferation of roots songs released on current (albeit more traditional) digital riddims.

Thirdly, re: my earlier wishes to merge, we need to deal with the fact that there is a ragga article and a dancehall article, with no explication either place what the difference is (I'm not asserting that there is one, but the fact that we have two articles necesitates a differentiation, right?)

My only suggestion is that we discuss these matters here, then edit the article appropriately. I think that the article currenty addresses all it needs to address, but it does so in a very disjointed manner, and we seem to be editing/adding what we see needed without payiing attention to the article as a whole. Reggaedelgado 08:33, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

As far as I understand it, ragga is a digital form of (or based on) reggae. Dancehall on the other hand is more broad style including roots and ragga, started as a term for reggae/music played in dancehalls, as the lyrics where to explicit for air play. --195.184.121.117 15:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Did Some Clean Up

Think we still need more data, particularly around the Yellowman, Josey Wales, Cutty Ranks, period of dancehall toasting (1985?). We've got Buju, Capleton, Beenie and others captured around turn of 80's to 90's well but could use more around the 1985-87 contributions to dancehall.

[edit] Bias

The article is biased in favor of Dancehall. Philosophical discussions of the "spirit" of the music don't belong. It should suffice to say that there is a disagreement over whether certain homophobic and misogynistic lyrics are serious directives or bragadocious allegory.Anthony717 06:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)