Talk:Dan Brown/Archive 1

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Archive 1
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Link Relevance?

I earlier today removed a link to the site bookthoughts.co.nz, as the site appears to be lacking in content, of no particular note (the only link to it google reveals is a link from the owner's own blog), and not specifically relevant to this article. The link was subsequently reinserted.

Upon further reading, this appears to be one of a number of articles seeing persistent removal and reinsertion of links to the site bookthoughts.co.nz owned by a user formerly registered as Kiwifaramir. See the user's talk page for discussion on this issue. Most recent edits inserting links to this site are by users with no contributions or edits aside from the link to bookthoughts inserted with identical text ("Read And Write Reviews On Novels By...") into an article on a given author. Examples presently include Alice_Sebold, John_Grisham, C._S._Lewis, Martin_Cruz_Smith. Can any procedurally expert wikipedia users advise on due process in this case? --Yst 03:36, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Imitation - best form of flattery

For anyone to look up Dan Brown and find minorly relevant details such as lawsuits and plagiarism is a rather unflattering approach to an article worthy of being in Wikipedia. I'd request for a re-write.. if I knew how. Besides, the point of view is seriously not neutral. Sylee 05:48, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Lawsuits and plagiarism allegations are not minor details, and the article is not supposed to be flattering, but factual. Why not rewrite it yourself? Wikipedia is about being bold! --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 06:16, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

I so prefer the latest update. It makes more sense and has more relevence now. Konrad West missed my point but the one who edited the Dan Brown article didn't. Thanks. - Sylee

Dan Brown's Law suit in the London Courts

Dan Brown is currently being sued by two historians for stealing the hypothesis and structure from the book - 'The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail' published in 1982.

Goya's Gantry?

I noticed the reference to a novel called Goya's Gantry (1998) in the article; is this accurate? I can't find any references to Brown having authored a work with this name (published or otherwise). Ajnewbold 03:32, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Looks like someone took care of it. Ajnewbold 12:53, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Criticism

I have flagged this page as having a non-NPOV as whilst there is criticism of Brown, there is no support. To say that he "has drawn criticism for being wrong" does not explain what the criticism is, and suggests that Brown actually IS wrong. Ukcreation 02:00, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've chopped out the section and put it here. I encourage whoever put it here to rewrite it with actual sources and specific examples. --CVaneg 08:11, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

He has been criticized for distorting, even fabricating, history in some of his novels. Inaccuracies in his works are not however limited to history or religion. The claim in the front of some of his books ("all descriptions of artwork, architecture, documents and secret rituals ... are accurate") is contentious, with many errors cited in describing building layouts and documents. Further numerical errors or inconsistencies are present in the works with regard mainly to times and distances. Also, descriptions of familiar every day technology, particularly transport, has drawn criticism for being wrong. While these novels are fiction, there is no warning that the novel does not truly depict history. As a result, readers may become misinformed about true historical facts. Multiple books written by other authors have tried to go more in depth into the information included, others try to prove the information as untruthful.

In my opinion the changes made by Cvaneg have removed the non-NPOV so I have removed the flag. Thanks Cvaneg. Ukcreation 13:21, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The problem is not that he states some things are factual, some ar ficticious. The problem is that he states things as factual which are NOT. So he indeed does NOT say the truth (cf. The Davinci Code). The chapter "Criticism" in the article is not only biased, it is also written in an extremely bad style. --213.47.66.134 15:39, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This article needs a Criticism section, mostly using not only his lawsuits, etc., but also literary criticism, like the fact he writes it all like a script, there are hardly any descriptions in his books, and any good passages... good god. This man can't write according to 90% of the critics out there, and we should mention it. --Sprafa 21:46, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Beyond the scope and purpose of Wikipedia

The very fact that his books are labled as, and sold as fiction means he has no requirement or burden to be faithful to what some consider to be true history. On the hardcover edition of "Angels and Demons" the rear dustcover above the ISBN/UPC says "FICTION". On the publisher page ther is a Fiction disclaimer in reasonably large (but not oversize) letttering. As a comparison, I pulled a random fiction title off my shelf: Sharpe's tiger" by Bernard Cornwall in paperback format. It is a fictional title about a recurring character through various REAL naval and land battles between 1799 and 1820. Nowhere on the rear cover, front cover or spine does it say *FICTION*, nor does it say so on the list of other titles page, the title page, the publisher page, not even a disclaimer, nore does the dedication page, or the inner covers. Is there some reason Mr. Brown is being held to a higher standard, which is, in my opinion, completely unrealistic?

Most people should be able to realistically deduce from Mr. Brown's "Author's note" page that certain things are real and the rest therefore, is not real. He makes perfectly acecptable claims to what is real: in his book "Angels and Demons" he states the following as a fact: "the worlds largest scientific research facility-Switzerlands CERN recently succeeded in producing the worlds first particle of antimatter..." This IS true and is well documented on CERN's website: www.cern.ch. This is one example of the claims he makes as being fact. Bearing in mind that his titles are marketed and labled as fiction, Mr. Brown has no obligation to hold anything he writes to events in real history. Nor does he have an obligation to claim that some things might not be real in big bold lettering. Yet, on the publisher information page, he does make such a disclaimer.

Many credible scholars and historians would agree that what is written in many history books is not even faithful to the events which actually transpired. Sir Winston Churchill is quoted as saying: "History will be kind to me for I intend to write it." Why then, should Mr. Brown be held to a higher standard than those who write history?

Dan Brown is a well supported and extremely good author. He has many great books under his name and people that think he is a "hack author" should reread his books and think about the facts!

While you make some good points, Wikipedia is here in this case, I think, to report on the author and widely spread criticisms of the author. They are apparently many and noteworthy, and should not be censored out of hand just because they happen to present him in an unfavorable light. Wesley 6 July 2005 05:36 (UTC)
It is not the fictional text that everyone disagrees with but misleading introductions making claims about all the places featured being real, when they are changed to fit the story. To use your CERN example he thanks CERN which suggests they in some way helped write the book, which isn't true. And he follows on from your quote with dramatic speculation about anti-matter which isn't factual even in the intro. Then the description of the site inside (not to mention the cringe worthy physics mistakes) is inaccurate. All it would take is to ask a physics undergraduate to read through it! Anyway I think the complaints are that he deliberately uses things like the intro to portray things inside as factual. I am not sure this is a valid criticism as authors in the past (such as Jack Higgins) have portrayed fictional books as fact to good effect. However why not include criticism, it has been widespread so if its properly referenced that is fair if we also include support, but lets be honest the criticism has been more. Plus he writes terrible English I read Angels and Demons cos I work at CERN but it was a real struggle.Jameskeates 10:41, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

vandalism?

the following

The novelist Lewis Perdue is sueing Brown, claiming that The Da Vinci Code was largely based on plagiarism of Perdue's books The Da Vinci Legacy and Daughter of God. His Da Vinci Legacy lawsuit page reports the current status of the case, listing some of the alleged similarities between the works.

were removed by an anonymous editor. Should it be reverted?MATIA

I also don't understand this removal. Could the anonymous author please explain? Temtem 01:46, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

During the case there was a number of forum's where a person, calling "herself" Vanessa, was targetting Brown/Perdue threads and quoting only the Brown side of the case, usually using Random House's wording prefixed by "hey!", to make her look hip, etc. It could be someone, like Vanessa, on behalf of Random House trying to stem the negativity. That's my cynical thoughts. Connor Wolf

Brown and his publisher sued Lewis Perdue, not the other way around. The link to the lawsuit result shows Brown as Plaintif. Perdue countersued in defence. US copyright law is different to UK, and the outcome may be different.

good book, bad ending

Davinci code was good book, Deception point is is good book but bad disappointing ending, seems the author ended it that way because he couldn't find another way .

Content changes reguarding criticism section

I have removed the section on Digital Fortress as it duplicated the criticism section on the page for the book. I have also removed the Angels and demons section, as it was also duplicative. The criticism for Deception Point was moved from the author page to the book page. I moved the section on the Da Vinci code as well. -- SusanLarson (User Talk, New talk, Contribs) 17:22, 15 December 2005 (UTC) have you read angels and demons?? it is a fantastic book with a GREAT ENDING. and to be honest, in my opinion the da vinci code has a good ending...something not expected at all.

Praise and criticism

We need to include some commentary on praise and criticism of Brown within this article, preferably generalised. While book-specific praise/criticisms are better dealt with in any depth within the actual book articles, it would probably be worth summarising them briefly here, particularly for Da Vinci Code. — Matt Crypto 12:35, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Should we include the fact that all his books have the same plotline? Or does that count as a spoiler? Slizor 02:16, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think that's better mentioned on the book pages themselves. For example, see Angels and Demons, which has a section listing the similarities between books. Elonka 08:58, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Or that he doesn't write novels, just movie treatments? -86.4.170.224 10:28, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Author of unauthorized biography trying to self-promote through this page

Can we keep Lisa Rogof's self-promotion off the page? She or someone on her behalf is adding misinformation to Brown's biography which is sensational, but wrong. Anonymous comment posted 19:14, January 26, 2006 by 67.32.202.188

Hi, thanks for popping in to the discussion. I am the individual who has been adding information from the book, which I purchased yesterday at Borders. Based on my reading of it, the information is plausible, and the author includes many references in the back of the book, as well as copies of early press about Brown. The details that I've been able to check, have all proven correct so far, and I have found no information that was incorrect. May I assume that you are objecting to the language about Brown and his future wife having a "discreet romance"? I'm open to suggestions about re-wording the page, especially if you can provide any published references which can be shown to contradict anything in Rogak's book. Has there been any public debunking going on anywhere? Oh, and when you add a comment to the discussion page, please "sign" it by posting four tildes : ~~~~. This automatically adds a datestamp, which keeps things a bit more organized. Thanks! Elonka 04:15, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
No problem! I'll also try to do the protocol better. It's not the "discreet romance" language so much as the contention that Brown worked at Beverly Hills Prep School in order to make contacts. That is completely inaccurate: he worked there simply because he needed to make a living. My biggest issue is that unverifiable statements that are tossed in to make someone look bad seem to cross the Wiki line. I know someone who knows Brown extremely well, and have also read Rogak's "biography". And while there is much truth in it, there are also many untruths. Also, I'll admit I have a real aversion to using unauthorized biographies as "fact" on Wikipedia as it demeans the integrity of Wikipedia in general. Unauthorized means de facto unverifiable of course. 70.149.141.254 18:36, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Well unfortunately, even if Dan Brown himself came to Wikipedia and said, "That's not true," it's against Wikipedia policy to use an eyewitness account. See Wikipedia:No original research. The best way to refute inaccurate claims here, is to supply a reference that proves their inaccuracy. In any case, the "discreet romance" paragraph has been extensively written, and the "contacts" sentence from Beverly Hills teaching is okay to remove since it could be argued to be POV (Point of View). As for other bonafide references in the article, such as the statistics about Harry Potter book sales, they have to stay unless they can be replaced with something more credible -- they can't just be removed, especially by an anonymous editor, unless proof can be offered that they are inaccurate. Elonka 20:52, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The name Lisa Rogak rang a bell- in May of 2005, it seems she hardly knew anything at all about Dan. Here's an excerpt from an email she sent me.
How big is his staff, i.e., how many layers did you need to go through to get 
through to him? Also, how did he react when you informed him of the mistakes in DF?
Many thanks. If there's any other insight you can lend, I'd appreciate it.

Lisa Rogak
She was basically just fishing for information, and it seemed she had none. Perhaps she dug up a lot, but my guess is she couldn't know much more than was public record. --btrotter 10:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

University of Seville

An anonymous editor added a claim to the Dan Brown article, saying that though Brown claims to have studied art history for a year in Seville, that the University "has no expedient under his name". I reverted the comment since it was unreferenced, but it may still be worth following up. I know that it's standard Wikipedia policy to take people's firsthand word for it as to certain biographical details like when they were born, who their parents were, what schools they went to, etc., and it's easily verifiable that Brown *says* that he went to the University of Seville, but if there's a credible claim that this particular datum is false, we should perhaps remove it from the article, or modify the wording to, "Brown claims that he attended..."

The key, of course, is "credible claim", since there's plenty of garbage that routinely gets added by pranksters. Considering the Seville issue though, it's true that every source that I can think of, only comes from Brown's interviews. And he does have a reputation for occasional exaggeration (such as referring to his wife as an "art historian"). Is it possible that this is an exaggeration too, that he just spent a year *in* Seville, but then made the claim that he was "studying at the University" since he could see it from his vantage point at the coffeehouse?  ;)

I'll recheck my own sources (like Rogak's book), but in the meantime, has anyone else ever seen a verifiable reference besides an interview? --

Elonka 19:44, 22 February 2006 (UTC)



Dan did take Art History there.

It wasn't 1994-5, it was 1984-5.



The University of Seville about Dan Brown

Ese señor nunca ha sido matriculado en esta universidad, a no ser que se apuntara a un curso de otoño de los que se dan en la Facultad de Geografía e Historia” para alumnos extranjeros.[1]

En el listado de alumnos de la Hispalense no aparece ningún Brown ni en el curso 1994-1995 ni en el siguiente, aunque fuentes universitarias consultadas por Efe no descartan que recibiera clases "como estudiante invitado o becario".[2]

Similar sentences can be found in several Spanish websites. Can somebody translate them, please?--Menah the Great 21:11, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Reader who is responding to request to translate.

I used an online translator, so you will see a very elementary tanslation. Soemone may want to do a more accurate and complete translation. here goes...

"That gentleman never been has registered in this university, unless he scored at an autumn course of which they occur in the Faculty of Geography and History "for students extranjeros.[1]En the listing of students of the Hispalense does not appear no Brown neither in course 1994-1995 nor in the following one, although university sources consulted by Efe do not discard that it received classes" like invited student or becario".["

Pretty good. My own translation (I lived and worked in South America for over a year) would be: "This gentleman was never registered at this university, unless he attended a Fall course given to foreign students by the Faculty of Geography and History," and "In a listing of students at the university, there is not a single person by the name of Brown in either the 1994-1995 class year nor the following, although university sources did point out that he could have taken classes 'as an invited student or scholarship recipient.'" I'm a bit fuzzy on the exact meaning of the word "Hispalense" (it may just be the proper name of the university), but I'm pretty confident on the rest. --Elonka 00:10, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Hispalense is a synonim of Sevillano/a, "Sevillian". The roman name of Seville is Hispalis.--Menah the Great 02:58, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
That's what I was seeing too. Okay, so that part would translate to: "In a listing of Sevillian students, there is not a single person by the name of Brown in either the 1994-1995 class year nor the following, although university sources did point out that he could have taken classes 'as an invited student or scholarship recipient.'" I may still be missing a subtlety, like "invited student" might mean what we refer to as "transfer student" -- we'd need someone more fluent to be certain. --Elonka 03:21, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Works

I have seen a book by Dan Brown which is not in the "Worsks" section, Illuminati but im not sure if he wrote it or co-wrote it. Someone should check it out and add it in. 212.120.228.189 22:44, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Truth?

It has been said that while Brown stole ideas from "The Holy Blood And The Holy Grail", they also stole from "Jesus Scroll." Even though it is quite obvious that Brown has stolen and changed several names from history and changed them around to suit his murder mystery book, (i.e. Pierre Plantard) who had claimed to be a decendent of Christ, no one can really say that Brown actually stole from the actual story. He just "used" ideas from history to suit his story. And who hasn't done that? Isn't that the definition of inspiration? (User:142.163.81.252 16:33, February 28, 2006 )


also they have it listen on the page that Angels and Demons was written before the da vince code, but he wrote it after the da vince code.

NPOV - put the bloody hand icon into the article!

The article is NPOV, as it makes no mention of the on-going plagiarism trial. We must inform readers that he may not turn out to be a "grail knight". He himself admitted reading the holy grail holy blood book before writing da vinci code. It is also very important, because the holy grail, holy blood authors openly admitted in press that their book was entirely made up, which destroys Dan Brown's claims that everything he wrote is real. 195.70.32.136 14:24, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I find the whole idea of pliagarism nonsense because Dan Brown's book is sold as a novel and the book it was based on was a nonfictional writing. It doesn't really matter, in my opinion, which one is real or both are fictional. Dan Brown's book is a thriller with references to the theories from the other book. In scientific writing this has been done very often. Furthermore, Dan Brown has named a character in reference to the authors of the original book, which can be seen as referencing the original work. But then, we are talking about a novel and fiction remains fiction! But this is just my opinion. --Ghormax 22:10, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I think the most appropriate place for the plagiarism accusation, is not on the bio page, but where it's covered now, on the actual book page(s), The Da Vinci Code (under Court Case), and Criticisms of the Da Vinci Code (under Allegations of Plagiarism). Brown hasn't been attacked about *all* his books, just DVC. Then again, it might be appropriate to add a "See also" section mentioning it, since it's definitely notable, regardless of whether or not the suit is proven to be with or without merit (and at the moment, it seems to be the latter). But I don't have a strong feeling on it either way, so it depends what the consensus opinion is. If enough people feel we *should* add a section about the trial, then we can do so. Otherwise, let's leave it off, because we already have enough forks. Anyone else have any thoughts on it? --Elonka 23:43, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

New reference - Brown's witness statement

I added a link to Dan Brown's witness statement from the trial. It's dozens and dozens of pages long, and there's a lot of info there which we can use to update the related articles. I'd do it myself, but I'm getting ready to get on a plane and head to GDC, so I won't be doing much editing for the next few days. I did want to make you all aware of it though! If no one else has time to get to it, I'll start incorporating the new information when I get back. --Elonka 02:37, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Good Marketing Tactics

Can anyone see a link between the bunfight over 'theft of ideas' (a concept with little legal substance) and the fact that DVC has returned to its number 1 place in the fiction charts for the third year. HBHG has also risen in the nonfiction category.

Certainly DVC would never have made it based on its literary merits: cardboard characters, sitcom plot, and wooden style. I can't help but admire the publishers' acumen in setting up the legal system this way. Wpenrose 20:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)Dangerous Bill

Really a Christian?

I'm not disputing this claim, just saying that it needs to be cited with a source. To Google! ````Levid37

Source is on the page. Rogak's biography.[3] --Elonka 18:23, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

source? his bio!

I did some editing to remove anti-anti-Christian non-NPOV. It said that his books are anti-Christian, I changed to to say that they are perceived as anti-christian. It also said he is a "self-proclaimed" Christian. I changed it to say that he is a Christian. "Self-proclaimed" reeks of holier-than-thou. As far as Wikipedia is concerned, if you're proclaiming yourself as a Christian you're a Christian. Andrewdoane 18:50, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

This is a pretty sticky topic to make a blanket statement like that. Just because someone proclaims to be an American citizen, does that mean they are? Just because someone proclaims to have a doctorate in law, does that mean they do? Just because Al Gore claimed to have invented the internet, did he? The above referenced site does not say that Dan Brown is a Christian. It says he grew up in a Christian home and went to church. According to the Christians, this does not make you one of them. Professing a faith in Jesus Christ and living a life that says so is what makes you a Christian. Including swear words and falsehoods against religion in a best-selling book does not necessarily make one a Christian. I would say reword this bit or remove it altogether and avoid the controversy. Bdag 16:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Criticism section

I am concerned about the new "Criticism" section. It seems to be nothing but a series of negative POV quotes, most of them from un-notable sources. My inclination is to delete it outright, does anyone else have an opinion? To be clear: I am not against the idea of a "Criticism and controversy" section, as long as it's presented in a fairly-written way. But the section as stands just looks like a poorly-formatted slam. --Elonka 19:01, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

(pasting in comment that was placed on main article) However in order to be objective there have been numerous reviews that have praised his book(s), and also fair to mention that with 45 million Copies sold of the Da Vinci code there certainly is a huge number of people to enjoy this book. One should also mention some of the possitive remarks from critics(they are abundant), it is only right to say that there are also indisputable facts in this book. There are Religous groups protesting the Da Vinci movie, and the response they have given to this certainly shows signs of fear, one would wonder why. One possible conclusion for the Vatican to oppose this movie and book so strongly, might simply be because the public and followers were made abundantly clear that the Church is willing and capable of keeping such things as child molestation and other abuses done by the Catholic Church private, until the hundreds of thousands of victims made their voices heard. The Church never expected for that to become public, as it may have never expected the writings in Dan Brown's book to make so many aware of other possible secrets. ( Posted by User:Ocstandard at 20:16, May 8, 2006 )
I have gone ahead and removed the Criticism section for now, so we can discuss the best way to present a "Criticism and controversy" section in the article, that is presented in an NPOV (Neutral Point of View) way. --Elonka 05:54, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I was shocked that Dan Brown of all people didn't have a criticism/controversy section on his page. What exactly was so bad about the old one that it could not be fixed rather than abandoned? If it is what is cut and paste above, I agree it's pretty bad. But surely something along the lines of: being fuzzy with the difference between facts and fiction, the plagiarism case by the holy blood, holy grail people and his rehashing of the same story line deserve to be mentioned and should be easy enough to back up. TastyCakes 01:09, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
When this has been discussed in the past, the general consensus is that the controversy is about The Da Vinci Code or his other novels, and not about Brown himself, so those comments are covered on the respective book pages, or, if there's enough of it, it's moved to its own page. For example, see Criticisms of The Da Vinci Code. --Elonka 06:17, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I guess that's fair. TastyCakes 20:21, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. If you still feel that a "Criticism and controversy" section would be appropriate, feel free to suggest wording here? As long as it's neutral and encyclopedic, it could be a good addition to the article. --Elonka 00:03, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

isnt he a jew

i read somewhere that he was a jew. can anyone confirm it. or were these the allegations against him nids 19:08, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure he's not Jewish. TastyCakes 17:32, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Isn't that a bit anti-semetic TastyCakes? BMurray

1964 or 1962?

When was he born?

1962 and 1964 are both given as the novelist's date of birth.

WoW?

Well, this is probably a downright hoax, but it's worth mentioning. Someone may or may not be posing as Dan Brown while playing WoW RP servers. It probably isn't true at all, it's just a little tiny thing I've come across. Don't flame me, please.  :(

A fan of mine

I think this person is great. He's so intelligent he makes me remind me of myself. lol. I've looked up research on the freemasons and illuminati and the da vinci code and all his puzzle's he's made in his books. I want to read "The Solomon Key" when it comes out. All the books he writes has something very interesting and non-fictitious which makes it even cooler. I may join CERN one day. -Heir of Eragon

Parodies

 Parodies have emerged, "The Asti Spumante Code" and " The Vadinci Cod".