Talk:Dale Abenojar

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Contents 1 Biography assessment rating comment 2 NPOV 3 North/South Col 4 Recent Edits 5 Clarifications 6 Elizabeth Hawley links 7 Section titles 8 Rebuttal by anon user "Filipino Climber" 9 Filipino Climber, ... 10 Article Correction 11 Dale Abenojar summit certificate in jpg file uploaded from wikimedia 12 article correction complete name of Abenojar 13 additional entry to Abenojar's article 14 Repetition in the article 15 suggestion on First News last paragraph entry 16 abenojar certificate 17 Additional contribution to Abenojar article 18 potencially libelous comments by Mr. Francisco 19 summit proof edit 20 Sherpa Contoversy 21 Abenojar's personal website 22 Recognition 23 Edits without reference

[edit] Biography assessment rating comment

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. --KenWalker | Talk 09:28, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

dale abenojar=hoax —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.215.112.89 (talk • contribs)

Sources pointing he is indeed a hoax? --Howard the Duck 12:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

dear howard the duck, namaste. the statement "Sources pointing he is indeed a hoax?" is unfair, content is malicious and obviously a character assasination plot. It must be proven in court otherwise it is libelous in form. Sources must prove accusations otherwise they should be charged with libel and moral damages. Buddism does not allow such a mockery of a human being more specially if a person is a blessed Qomolungma summiteer. Himalayan climber 15nov 2006

Sheesh, which is more unfair, etc.? The one made by 203215.112.89, or mine? If ever a source says Abenojar, is indeed a hoax, then, in all cases it should be in the article. --Howard the Duck 11:29, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

dear howard the duck, namaste. it was an honest mistake on my part. i did not realize quick enough that the statement "sources pointing he is indeed a hoax" was your question to the unsigned contributor on this talk page asking the unsigned contributor his/her references and citations with complete details on her/his statement "dale abenojar=hoax —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.215.112.89 (talk • contribs) " i suppose. my apologies for my misunderstanding. Himalayan climber 15nov 2006

[edit] NPOV

lets make this article stable and stop back-toback reverts by disucssing content and references here. --Howard the Duck 08:46, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

can we add this as the reason that media & filipino mountaineers have doubts to his claim?
"he was not recognized as such since there was no other witnesses in the summit except his Sherpa. Also in 1994, his detractors had successfully discredited his Everest attempt to the Philippine Goverment and media . (Inq.net)"—Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.247.219.10 (talk • contribs) dear howard the duck, namaste. it is not a climber and his sherpa's fault that they were at the summit after most of the summiteers had gone down. it is not the first to happen. many others have even summiteed on their own like mr. messner. First hand information explained to us himalayan climbers last april 2006 in kathmandu that he was the first to proclaim to the Philippine media of his plan to climb everest in the late 1994 afterwhich the other Filipino mountaineer group who had discredited him from his sponsors were happy in halting his everest attempt from government and media but the other group later never climbed everest the following year he says. mr. abenojar explains to us (teary eyed in his revelations) that the group who had maliciously discredited him from his legitimate sponsors were the same organizers of the present Filipino everest team today who continiously maliciously maligns him and orchestrates these libelous character assasination plots (which he says were untrue accusations a long time ago in the late 80's) to Filipino media and other Filipino mountaineers up to today. made us himalayan climbers understand better how Filipino climbers' darker side forces crab mentality to reign inside the wicked minds instead of morally uplifting each other's good plans. we offered a sacrificial animal for the souls of mr. abenojar's discreditors so they may be enlightened in the end. this revelation was just one of many interesting truths that had naturally come out of mr. abenojar's thoughts which we recorded. The good thing is, he says that he does not hold any grudge against people that do harm on his character. He continues to say that he was a saved (christian) man more than a year ago. Buddha has blessed mr. abenojar with safety in summitting his everest dream. Himalayan climber 15nov 2006

also his future plans?

• Climb Everest North side again in 2007 without the aid of supplemental oxygen.( A child in Everest )
• Fund charities thru his Everest climb. (ABS-CBN)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.247.219.10 (talk • contribs)

Ok, that'll be better, but please, don't remove references without discussion. (You can sign by adding ~~~~.) --Howard the Duck 12:39, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] North/South Col

What is "col"? --Howard the Duck 14:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed.
North col - semi verticall ice wall in the Tibet side up to 7000m
South col Route - Normal route in Nepal side up to the 8900 167.247.219.10 05:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

So "Col" doesn't mean a thing? --Howard the Duck 05:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

pls see Topographic prominence/Col 167.247.219.10 05:51, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Can we use another less-confusing term? Such as "mountain pass" or something? --Howard the Duck 05:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

we can't since it's a name of a place. may be we can link all "col" words to wiki. 167.247.219.10 07:52, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Ahh... so its a proper name, like River Nile, etc. Linking all "col" words would be good enough for me. --Howard the Duck 08:11, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Edits

"an unrecognizable climber with his face obscured by an oxygen"
"has a reputation for fabricating achievements though"
"is the only authorized issuing authority of Everest summiteers"
dear howard the duck, namaste. China Tibet Mmountaineering Association CTMA) is the only organization for foreign mountaineering expeditions: China Tibet Mountaineering Association (tibet.cn/en/newfeature/guide/text/t20060421_110077.htm) was set up on March 17 in 1981. As the only organization for foreign mountaineering expeditions procedures transaction, TMA owns right to approve the mountaineering applications and offers following services: 1, Vicarious mountaineering applications as scientific investigation, photography, mapping and other actions can be undertaken by TAM. 2, Offering services including communication, material purchasing, room and board. 3, Offering mountaineering guides, assistants, camp kitcheners, transportation vehicle. 4, Organizing joint mountaineering. Address: No.10 east Linkuo Road, Lhasa, Tibet Autonomous Region, China. Tel: 0086-891-6333720 ¡¡6333687 ¡¡6322934 Fax: 0086-891-6336366 Himalayan climber 15nov2006

what can you say about these edits? 167.247.219.10 11:49, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Why don't we remove everything from the page, start from scratch, and add citations for every sentence? Or we can do it at Talk:Dale Abenojar/Draft. --Howard the Duck 12:48, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's do your second suggestion. 167.247.219.10 02:58, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I opened it already. Add references by using the <ref>your reference here</ref> tags. For an example, see the NCAA Philippines article. --Howard the Duck 03:03, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

will resume my contrib on Oct as I am busy for the moment. pls. cont your effort on clean-up of this article 167.247.219.10 07:13, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarifications

I've reverted some of your edits on this article, including this talk page. I'll tell you why:

I've added a notice on your user page that you need to name your references. For instance, if you say that Dale really did visit Everest first, show us documented proof...give us the papers, the documents, the photographs, the videos that Dale Abenojar did reach the summit first before anyone did. (And, more importantly, show us how to see this for ourself---give us the links or the footnotes.) AFAIK, Dale Abenojar has not yet provided these proofs in public, which is why some people doubt his credibility.

If we can not verify your edits, if other people cannot prove it for themselves, then it will be very difficult for anyone to assert their factuality. More importantly, the neutrality of your edits will remain suspect. Take note that even the statement "Dale Abenojar a hoax"? was tagged for lack of citation; in the same manner, please provide us the proofs, the documents, the articles that we can verify on our own. --- Tito Pao 10:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Tito Pao,

Namaste.

show us documented proof...give us the papers, the documents, the photographs...

please google www.monterosa-nepal.com -they should have the official proofs-website summit picture of mr. abenojar and the copy of the summit certificate awarded to him by CTMA.

as to videos... since your from the philippines maybe you can contact mr. abenojar himself if he can show you his everest video. mr. abenojar should have a copy of his summit certificate that he might personally show to you since you and abenojar live in the same country. We believe he is a easy and a very nice person to talk to. We were privy to his humble personality during his everest ascent.

Kindly delete my communications with you on this talk page. Many thanks Tito Pao :-) Himalayan climber 12 nov 2006

"Dale Abenojar has not yet provided these proofs in public" dear tito pao, namaste. FYI: On August 4, 2006, Dale's documentary film "Child in Everest" was shown to family, friends, supporters, media and representatives of the Philippine government. Curator of Malacañang Museum is now evaluating of giving Dale the presidential citation and recognition of "Champions for Life." (Philippine Star)

We believe mr. abenojar's summit certificate was shown on Philippine national television with TV host ms. sanches in her news show "Korina Today" as shown on mr. abenojar's picture on front page of entry. is there an available article on ms. korina's tv news show tito pao? Himalayan climber 15nov 2006

It appears that you personally know Mr. Dale Abenojar and are well-acquainted with him. For the sake of academic discussion, let us allow some concessions on this article. Please understand that because it is generally accepted that Messrs. Oracion, Emata and Garduce are the first three climbers as far as most (if not all) Filipinos are concerned, it might confuse some Filipino readers to read about Mr. Abenojar establishing his claim when they know otherwise. Reading through your comments, I have an inkling of what needs to be done with this article in order to make it more objective (as far as the Wikipedia NPOV policy is concerned; however, before I proceed, I'd like to ask some clarificatory questions:

Questions and tasks that need to be addressed (you can post your answers here on the talk pages. It may also help if you can provide us with related existing Wikipedia articles)

• How does the certification process for Mt. Everest climbers work? What organization or body authenticates climbs?

• What are the leading news sources within the mountaineering society that are readily available for the general public? How can non-mountaineers know that they are reliable?

• Mr. Abenojar's climb was verified and confirmed by Monterosa Treks and Expeditions. How long have they been in operation? Have they enjoyed a good reputation in mountaineering circles?

• The Elizabeth Hawley article needs more work in order to establish her reputation, at least for us who are not mountaineers. Are her records and chronicles publicly available (or at very least, the most significant parts of it)? Are/were most of these records corroborated and/or verified by other mountaineering associations?

Please understand that I really need to ask these questions because I'm not very familiar with mountaineering, and I want to understand everything from the perspective of a mountaineer. Once these clarificatory questions are answered, we'll try to copyedit this article and other related articles to come up with a more objective article. --- Tito Pao 18:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Tito Pao, Namaste.

How does the certification process for Mt. Everest climbers work? What organization or body authenticates climbs?

If you are climbing everest from tibet/north side: climber pays the everest outfitter. outfitter gets the climbing permit from CTMA. after summitting, climber submits himself to CTMA panel of officers for interview, questions and cross examinations on climber's trail signs from base to summit. climber submits all his available pictures and videos to CTMA panel. CTMA reviews all discussion and presented proofs. If CTMA authenticates proofs, climber is awarded summit certificate. Another respectable everest chronicler that authenticates everest summiteers is ms. hawley. she practically repeats the same process as CTMA.

• What are the leading news sources within the mountaineering society that are readily available for the general public? How can non-mountaineers know that they are reliable?

everestnews.com mounteverest.net explorersweb.com

they publish what they get from climbers/outfitters/other news orgs. Most news come from climber's own experience.

• Mr. Abenojar's climb was verified and confirmed by Monterosa Treks and Expeditions. How long have they been in operation? Have they enjoyed a good reputation in mountaineering circles?

They have been in business i believe for 7 years. The owner is a former everest trekking guide i believe. He is also i believe the president of the Nepal Travel Association.

Monterosa Treks & Expedition (P) Ltd. is registered in Office of the Company Registrar as (P.) Ltd. No (704/1993) & Department of Tourism (authorize no. (555) 237- 1993) of His Majesty's Government of Nepal. It is operated by qualified and expert group leader, Trekking guides, Mountain guides, tour guides, trekking crews with more than 11 years of professional Experience in trekking, Mountaineering, tours and related more.

It is an active member of Trekking Agents Association of Nepal (TAAN), Nepal Mountaineering Association (NMA). Himalayan Rescue Association (HRA).

• The Elizabeth Hawley article needs more work in order to establish her reputation, at least for us who are not mountaineers. Are her records and chronicles publicly available (or at very least, the most significant parts of it)? Are/were most of these records corroborated and/or verified by other mountaineering associations?

Ms. elizabeth hawley is the undisputed authority on everest chronicles. she is well respected in all mountaineering news orgs and climbers worldwide. you can google ms. hawley. i believe she publishes her everest chronicles once a year on a cd that is available for sale at the end of each year/climbing season. i believe all her records are corroborated by by the mountaineering circles.

Kindly delete my replies on this talk page. Many thanks. himalayan climber 13 nov 2006

Thanks for the insight. I'll be checking these info against all known Wikipedia articles. One more important question (and this is crucial in determining how the neutrality dispute can be settled): in case of disputes about Mt. Everest ascents (such as the one involving Mr. Abenojar and Messrs. Oracion, Emata and Garduce), how are these disputes settled in the mountaineering community? Are there any organizations that act like arbiters or mediators with full authority?

Dear Tito Pao, Namaste. I am only aware of two things. One, the only group that would most likely want to impress other Filipinos (confuse others of simple facts) that mr. oracion is the first to summit everest are the organizers and the news org. of mr. oracion's group who according to everestnews.com, etc. had proclaimed him the first on may 17 (two days after mr. abenojar's summit date) to the world (why couldnt they retract their statements? will it jeopardize their sponsor positioning and humiliate their news org even though they were aware (as an international news org) that mr. abenojar's group (monterosa treks & expeditions Nepal) had announced his impending summit bid hours before dinnertime of may 14-start of his actual summit assault at camp3 8,300mtrs) was about to take place the following day (may 15) and on the day of his summit (may 15) and again the following day may 16 after summit day. Given these scenarios, the international mountaineering community are no dumb to these Filipino happenings as it is obviously clear to us that mr. abenojar's everest record is being politicized by his own countrymen with crab mentality and sadly his own government. We have read Filipino blogs on him and we believe the other parties that envy his remarkable achievement (as a Filipino without sponsors, broadcast network backing and without high altitude experience-taking the more technical north col route) have made numerous libelous unsolicited remarks unbecoming of an everest summiteer everest summiteers are very much respected in the international mountaineering community) and unbecoming of a true sportsman, unbecoming of a news org. and unbecoming of a team. lastly, we believe that there are actually no arbiters or mediators with full authority to settle in mr. abenojar and mr. oracion's case. We only believe that there is only two authorities that certify an everest summiteer and they cannot contradict because both of them have their own summit dates on their summit certificates plainly because thier respective everest summiteer climbs everest from an opposite side and on a separate country. If your climbing the "south col route," your climbing via Nepal so the Nepal Mountaineering Association awards summit certificates to summiteers climbing the "south col." The other one is the China Tibet Mountaineering Association. If a mountaineer summits via the "north col route," then he is awarded a summit certificate by the CTMA. Only these two distinguised mountaineering associations have the sole authority to award a summit certificate to everest summiteers. Now, if the CTMA retracts or withraws mr. abenojar's summit certificate, then and only then mr. oracion becomes the first Filipino. In the case of ms. hawley, she is not a mediator nor an arbiter in mountaineering disputes. she is only a chronicler of everest summiteers. a veteran at that and the most respected chronicler of everest summiteers by the international mountaineering community. She has never made a mistake in her time-tested career. So when she declared that mr. abenojar was the first Filipino to summit everest, rest assured that all the mountaineers all over the world that believes her 101% and the decision made by the china tibet mountaineering association will most likely believe and back-up mr. abenojar in their own record and history books that mr. abenojar was the first Filipino Everest summiteer.

even here at wikipedia's talk page-"abenojar a hoax? this insinuation is a libelous statement if cannot be proven otherwise. why does wikipedia allow these statements even at wikipedia's talk page? isnt libelous statements a no no in wikipedia? We believe these libelous insinuations should be deleted immediately. can anyone prove that mr. abenojar CTMA summit certificate is a hoax/fake? an unbiased and fearless news org in your country should fly to Lhasa Tibet and check with the CTMA office headquarters if indeed mr. abenojar's summit certificate is genuine or not to finally end the Filipino dispute on matter of everest north col summit dates.

We read that the other party even accused mr. abenojar of paying off CTMA elders for the summit certificate!!! and paying off his trekking sherpas to tell the Filipino public that mr. abenojar indeed summitted?!!! these are grave insults to the China Tibet mountaineering association who are pure chinese (does the Filipino Everest team have chinese sponsors?) and the entire nepalese sherpa community as well who helped the Filipino Everest team summit the south col side!!! insinuating these horrible accusations to two respectable mountaineering organizations is unforgivable i must say indeed!!! i suggest that the high altitude doctor of the Filipino Everest team who publicly announced (via your philippine star newspaper) be declared "persona non grata in Tibet and Nepal!!!) you can inquire with the Filipino newspaper reporter mr. rainer with regard to this disturbing article. Himalayan climber 13nov2006

Calm down. We know that Abenojar has been certified by the Tibetans/Chinese, but doesn't mean he will get the mainstream recognition (e.g. his certification is disputed) that he got there first. The article needs to emphasize that Abenojar still has to release his evidences, etc., and we need citations. Also, a source is badly needed to say that mainstream recognition was submitteed that Abenojar is the acknowledged first Filipino to reach the summit. --Howard the Duck 04:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

biased news reporting (marhgil.blogspot.com/2006_05_01_marhgil_archive.html)

walang kinikilingan? by kukote

"papunta pa lang kayo, pabalik na ako!" yan siguro ang gustong ipahayag ni Dale Abenojar kina Oracion, Emata at Garduce. hehehe. kagabi ko lang narinig sa balita that Abenojar claims that he is the first Filipino to summit Mt. Everest, not Oracion. Nakarating daw sya on May 15, samantalang si Oracion ay May 17, mas nauna nga naman sya. Totoo kaya ito? siguro. nakakalat sa internet ang balita eh.

I googled Abenojar and found these news... mga balita na nagsasabi na nakarating nga daw si Abenojar ng summit on May 15, though the reports said its unconfirmed, pero at least, ibinalita pala nung May 16 sa internet, hindi man lang nabanggit sa local news? Walang kinikilingang pagbabalita? Sampal sa dalawang media network, hehehe, e nakakalat lang pala dyan sa internet ang nangyari kay Abenojar eh, di man lang nabanggit, puro manok lang nila ang ibinabalita. o eto yung mga balita...

"According to MountEverest.net, Malaysian climber Ravichandran Tharumalingam and Filipino climber Dale Abenojar have both reportedly reached the summit." - Outdoor News Wire (May 16,2006) "More and more climbers are summiting Everest from the north side, thanks to a remarkably long period of generally good weather – except for isolated snowfalls. Himex’s second team succeeded yesterday, including disabled Mark Inglis; there were also reports on Malaysian Ravi topping out, as well as unconfirmed news on Filipino Dale Abenojar reaching the summit, despite previous reports stating he had aborted his attempt." Mt. Everest.Net (May 16,2006) “One guy who beat the odds was Dale Abenojar. You will have read about him on my blogs and many Philippine news agencies and followers have asked me about him, so here is the latest: On 12th May I saw him going up with a Sherpa. He was dress in full down suit (at 6500m!) and going very slowly. On May 18, I saw him, again on a yak, going down, just below middle camp. I was going up, but while passing he said: 'Harry, I summited May 15 and lost one toe”. So the good thing is that he is still alive and can return to his wife and children ( I had given him less than 50% survival chance, but Everest can be strange in her decisions...). Whether he actually summited he should prove himself, I have no further info about that...” - Mt.Everest.net (May 22, 2006)

Dale, or someone from his e-mail has submitted a photo and the following about Dale: "On May 15, 2006, Dale Abenojar, a Philippine-born mountaineer and amazingly the first high altitude climb of his life - finally becomes the first officially recorded Filipino Mt. Everest North Col summiter. The Chinese Mountaineering Association will present Mr. Abenojar on May 22 his certified "Mt. Everest North Col Summit Certificate". We asked for more... Stay Tuned... - EverestNews (May 25, 2006)

sige, yun lang!

Obviously, Mr. Abenojar has his share of PR men to do his job rather than releasing to the public (not the selected public)full proof to his claim. And while their camp keeps on saying that sponsors and media networks backing Oracion, Emata and Garduce were responsible why they were having a hard time getting attention. I'd like to point out that Mr. Abenojars camp also had sponsors and have been going around the same media networks to publicize their claim.

The problem here stems from the fact the Mr. Abenojars camp had been circulating conflicting reports and statements themselves which makes the public doubt his claim same as what transpired in 1993. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.1.82.243 (talk • contribs)

Dear anonymous user, that is why I have been pressing "Himalayan climber" to properly cite his edits to avoid any problems with the articles. (And, in case you have missed it, I also encouraged him to register an account on Wikipedia; I also invite you to do the same.)

This is also the same concern Howard has about the article from the very start. Note that he even challenged the anonymous user who posted "Dale Abenojar = hoax?" comment to show his citations/references; until now, this anonymous user has yet to deliver.

As for your allegations that Mr. Abenojar has his own backers and campaigners in the media, can you also show us your references and citations? Can you show us news reports that expose these so-called sponsors and backers (with complete details)? --- Tito Pao 16:21, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

dear tito pao, namaste. We must say that the above is quite disturbing in Filipino media coming from a Filipino forum site. It seems that the odds were against mr. abenojar even in Filipino news reporting. Unbelievable insight. Not a fair playing field i must say. Himalayan climber 15 nov 2006

Dear unsigned contributor, namaste.

"Obviously, Mr. Abenojar has his share of PR men to do his job rather than releasing to the public (not the selected public)full proof to his claim. And while their camp keeps on saying that sponsors and media networks backing Oracion, Emata and Garduce were responsible why they were having a hard time getting attention. I'd like to point out that Mr. Abenojars camp also had sponsors and have been going around the same media networks to publicize their claim."

you must be uninformed about certain things especially about mr. abenojar's so-called sponsors. FYI, we believe that mr. abenojar came to nepal with only his downpayment to pay his outfitter (monterosa treks & expeditions nepal). we also believe that mr. abenojar had to pawn his landrover vehicle to pay the required downpayment for his everest expedition. now, if he had sponsors, he would have naturally paid in full his outfitter before his travel to everest right? wrong. he had to stay in kathmandu for two weeks until his wife could put up the balance of nearly USD16,000 asking contributions from friends and relatives to complete the balance. We believe mr. abenojar could not afford to pay a PR consultant as he is obviously strapped with cash. mr. abenojar's full proof was shown to the public. summit certificate shown in public in ms. korina's abs-cbn news program called korina today. his video documentary was also shown to the public free-of-charge . How can you say "selected public" if the advance screening in a cinema welcomes the public as it was published by the (Philippine Star) on its front page the day before screening that entry to the cinema was free of charge? citing: On August 4, 2006, Dale's documentary film "Child in Everest" was shown to family, friends, supporters, media and representatives of the Philippine government. Curator of Malacañang Museum is now evaluating of giving Dale the presidential citation and recognition of "Champions for Life." (Philippine Star) We believe that mr. abenojar's PR consultant is his wife. That wouldnt cost him much Peso would it?

"The problem here stems from the fact the Mr. Abenojars camp had been circulating conflicting reports and statements themselves which makes the public doubt his claim same as what transpired in 1993."

Can you cite your references and citations as to your "conflicting reports and statements" allegation? can you prove what you write mr. anonymous contributor? show us your information as tito pao says: : As for your allegations that Mr. Abenojar has his own backers and campaigners in the media, can you also show us your references and citations? Can you show us news reports that expose these so-called sponsors and backers (with complete details)? one more onerous date, "what transpired in 1993." this should be "1994" and not 1993. hope it was just a plain typo error on your part unsigned contributor. Himalayan climber 15nov 2006

Himalayan Climber, blogs are not acceptable as Wikipedia sources per this policy, so this particular blog entry cannot be considered as a serious and reliable source. I deleted the link, btw --- Tito Pao 13:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Elizabeth Hawley links

All Elizabeth Hawley-related links on the "External links" section were removed from this article and, instead, placed on the Elizabeth Hawley article. Since this article is about Dale Abenojar, they don't belong here. --- Tito Pao 15:36, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Section titles

Can anyone shorten them? --Howard the Duck 15:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Done. However, as I've noted in the edit summary, this article still needs lots of rework. I'm trying to gather more sources about Dale Abenojar; in due time, I'll have this article rewritten to make it less POV and more sourced. --- Tito Pao 15:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rebuttal by anon user "Filipino Climber"

For clarity, please add a colon (":") if you are responding to a particular paragraph. Also, please sign your edits 
with four tildes (~~~~) so that we'll know who's writing which, okay? --- Tito Pao 13:27, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Himalayan climber,

Apparently you must make sure you check before you get your facts straight from relaible sources and not merely from Mr. Abenojar.

For your info, its not only some members of the mountaineering group but most if not all know of Mr. Abenojars antics during the 1994 bid. These are the same persons he railroaded and badmouthed before and now he's saying they are on a crusade to malign him?

In Buddhism, you may believe in something called karma.

If you want the docs I'll gladly post it here and you can verify it with the official hard copy.

So while the guy is portraying to be a victim of a smear campaign and media bias, he still has yet to provide the raw footage for the public to see. And he's allowing himself to be interviwed by the same media outfit he;s accusing of bias. How's that?

And he never even attempted to summit Everest in 94, he just stayed at base camp for around a month.

And before you accuse Filipinos of crab mentality, I suggest you check your sources well otherwise you'll just be the same banana.

And Mr. Abenojar is no Messner when you're going to verify his true mountaineering expolits and credibility in the Philippines. Come over to the Philippines and we'll show you lots of evidence.

Lastly, the reason the others dont speak up is that they just grew tired of hearing stories like this from the same man for years on end and wont stoop down to his level. We have more pressing problems to solve and better things to do with our lives.

How well do you know Mr. Abenojar? We do, very well. He can claim and say all he wanst, but you cant teach old dogs new tricks as old habits die hard.

So that the real truth be told.

---Pinoy climber —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.38.51.134 (talk • contribs)

"Pinoy Climber", whoever you are (do please register an account since you're using an IP address that was formerly blocked), I appreciate the points that you have made. However, as a gentle reminder, please be civil when making your comments anywhere on Wikipedia. Especially be careful not to write anything that might be construed as personal attacks. Other than this, I fully agree with some of your points; however, I'm still doing my research related to this and related articles in my spare time, which is why I have left the article untouched pending further research. However, I will be revising this article as soon as possible since there's a backlog on the Neutrality tag. In the meantime, please feel free to help in editing this article, I'll appreciate it. If you need help in getting along your edits, just let me know and I'll try to help. --- Tito Pao 18:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Tito Pao,

I appreciate the factual and partial point of view you have given the matter. My point of explaining what has long been asked is when certain parties come out with truth. They must make sure there are no questions nor doubts. Today, as I write, the Philippine President aided no less than than a recommendation from the malacanang curator which Mr. Himalayan climber had quotes will confer the Order of Lakandula to 3, take note 3 filipino climbers who summitted Everest. Why Mr. Abenojar was not included? , we trust you to draw your own conclusions.

Again, will the networks, Oracions group or I will be the cause of the blame for this "snubbing" as Mr. Himalayan climber so believes, that "we are sabotaging Mr. Abenojar", because we Pinoys are inherent to be politicians and crabs.

I will take the time to collate the paper and testimonials not at Mr. Himalayan climbers timetable but according to when our sources would come out. The reason for this is the paper and witnees trail to doubt dates back to as far as 18 years back.

And now , to set the record straight before we come out with real proofs and sources if Tito Pao or anybody, requests for them to be publisghed here.

Our rebuttal in BOLD so everyone may be guided.

Dear pinoy climber, namaste!

1. mr. abenojar never told us any story to incriminate any filipino mountaineer as you may seem to percieve.

Fr Pinoy Climber :Mr. Abenojar will never tell anybody other than his trusted friends the real details as it willingly incriminate himself. Why would one confess to a stranger all his dark secrets? And we mean stranger, because Mr. Himalayan climber has stated that he met and know Mr. Abenojar from his travels to Nepal.

2. we can observe from a few filipino forums that you have too much politics in philipins mountaineering. mostly accusations that are not verifiable.

Fr Pinoy Climber : Insinuating and drawing conclusions from personal points of view regarding the Philippines are credible? Mr. Himalayan climber already assumes because he had read and deducted from a few philippine mountaineering forums that there are instances of politics, he is already an expert in making a statement about the state of philippine mountaineering. Observing and analyzing is totally different from being in the Philippines.

mr. abenojar seems to be a victim of piliticking from a biased rival mountaineering group which is obviously your group as his arch rival.

Fr Pinoy Climber :For the record, I am not a member nor even remotely connected to Mr. Oracions,Emata and Garduce's group. A fact that again has been drawn by concluding that because I am questioning Mr. Abenojars claim to climb everest, I am immediately sa member of the group who is discredtiting and maligning Mr. Abenojar.

How Mr. Himalyan climber knew that I belong to Mr. Oracions or Garduces group without even knowing who I am much less my name is a testament how he draws his facts and gets his information.

2. other unbiased filipino mountaineers have emailed us of fabricated and or unfair accusations from your biased group.

Fr Pinoy Climber :Can you tell us, and I mean by telling us, give us the real names and verifiable contact info of these people you say is unbiased? My biased group consists of one person, take note, one person, myself.

The names and specific details as this is exactly what we are waiting since June, 1996. Concrete, Undisputed, unedited proof. And when we mention the word "unbiased", does believing Mr. Abenojar make you biased or doubting him make you biased?

3. mr. abenojar seems to have other filipino mountaineers who believe in his capabilities. you obviously seem to be mr. abenojar's rival group.

Fr Pinoy Climber :Obviously, Mr. Himalayan climber seems confused, misinformed of the circumstances behind the doubt.By concluding that I belong to a rival group out to malign Mr. Abenojar without even bothering to know who I am, isnt the shoe on the other foot?

Whos maligning Mr. Oracion, Emata and Garduce now? By stating "a few, some, i read, told me" instead of naming exact details of persons or organizations, Mr. Himalayan climbers sources are questionable.

4.) so tell us how can we see your proofs as non-biased? we cant even hear mr. abenojar's side of the story because he refused to make the controversy more controversial.

Fr Pinoy Climber :Or the lack of proof thereof. Because every thime Mr. Abenojar is asked live on tv or thru credible press interviews, Mr. Abenojars clams up or either rambles, his spokesman and wife speaks for him. Footages of these were broadcasted by the major networks not only "the biased network". In one instance when Mr. Abenojar was asked point blank by the reporter whether he indeed climbed everest, he didnt say anything and just looked at his wife. Either that or he'll parry the question by answering far off answers not related to the question such as "he misses his family and kids". His camera conked during ther ascent thats why he does not have a summit video, yet he has an edited video he showed a to select crowd. He has not presented his "original summit photo' top the public.

He does not confirm what photos he showed to Ms. Hawley. He also claims he ran oput of film. All these conflicting actions elicits doubt.

It takes 2 to 3 days for his spokesperson to answer a question thrown Mr. Abenojars way. Why doesnt he answers them himself is a big mystery to us.

He's accusing the two rival tv networks of being biased against him yet, the other network even gave him a forum to clear himslef via a talk show. This same network that he approached even sponsored his mid-90's attempt at the Everest.

Fr Pinoy Climber :As for his sponsors, which his camp claims had none - MR. LUCIO TAN, SMART COMMUNICATIONS to name a few. Just look at the comopany logos and patches in his expedition uniform when he appears in tv talk shows, the public and interviews and you know the guy had sponsors. It doesnt take a markeitng degree to figure that out. If tney arent, isnt he misreprsenting himslef and these comoanys whose logos he is claiming to be part of his summit team? Then, he is most certainly liable for copyright infringement.

5.) we did not hear him say a bad word on his rival group nor did he accuse any rival mountaineering group of bad things that are being rumor mongered of his character.

Fr Pinoy Climber :They obviously are looking at the wrong circles and forums. And you just did accusae these groups sir, please re-read your own posts. Worse part is, you have branded us pinoys as politicians,crabs and character assasins.

6.)we met him and spoke with him several times at china bsae camp in tibet.

Fr Pinoy Climber :For how long? three times? six times? one hour perhaps. We've heard and experienced his reputation, stories and misdeeds since 1991.

7.)before you say anything to an everest summiteer, we believe you should try and summit north col everest first b efore you start badmouthing an everest north col summiteer.

Fr Pinoy Climber : A fact sir, that Mr.Abenojar has yet to fully proof. As they say, the burden of proof lies in the climber. I had never intended or had any intention of making reference to other North Col climbers. Please refrain from muddling the issue by putting words in our mouths.

8.)we feel your comments are totally disrespectful of your own people who took to risk his life ascending the more technical side of everest.

Fr Pinoy Climber :Again that is your own opinion sir. How you can come out with this kind of conclusion about me or the groups that you are maligning baffles us. By calling us crabs and assasins is that more disrestpectful assuming that you are a foreigner.

One of the reasons why I finally spoke up is that facts are being twisted, fabricated to advance ones cause. And when one puts doubt on the Philippines and its people by accusing them of facst that are heresays and unverified then our patience will boil over. It paints the Phlippines once again as a bunch of cheats when certain individuals does deeds that are shameful.

Fr Pinoy Climber :With all due respect to Tito Pao and Howard the Duck. I came here not to pcik an argument but to dispute a lie which has spawn tales.

9.) it is such a tremendous task to scale everest north col in the first place and you seem not to realize that.

Fr Pinoy Climber: And that is outside the point which is, did Mr. Abenojar really summit Everest? Why do you think more experienced and qualified Pinoy climbers who summitted Everest chose the South route?

10. we made inquiry to your allegation that mr. abenojar went to basecamp south col. and we have been given proof by the nepal immigration that mr. dale abenojar never entered nepal in 1994. now, we are 100% sure that your unfounded accusation on mr. abenojar staying in basecamp south col side for one month is a farce.

Fr Pinoy Climber :Well, it came out of Mr. Abenojars mouth before and after his media interviews.A fact that you cant establish because you werent in the Philippines or knew Mr. Abenojar then when the made those remarks and claim. What proof are you talking about? Let Mr. Abenojar produce his original passport during the times being disputed.

11.) you mr. filipino climber got your information from an unreliable source who is most likely a politically motivated character assasination directed to mr. abenojar.

Fr Pinoy climber: Well, if unedited video footage, more than dozens of witnesses and original press clippings arent solid proof to you. There's something wrong, aint it? And when you accuse me of being part of Mr. Oracions or Garduce's group , accuse them of being in a garnd design to discredit Mr. Abenojar, accuse respected tv networks of bias and label me a crab and an assassin, isnt that what you define as politically motivated character assasination? Or is it a grand design? You obviously got your story from one fella?

12.) now how can you make us believe your other accusations on mr. abenojar's character are not likewise fabricated? so you will make sure of our own investigation that mr. abenojar never came to royal nepal anytime in 1994, you must try and check with your own local philipins immigration if mr. abenojar flew to nepal in 1994. if you will not and cannot show us proof that mr. abenojar flew to nepal in 1994, then you must stop all your rumor mongering which may produce Karma for you and whoever told you that mr. abenojar stayed in basecamp south col side for one month.

Fr Pinoy Climber :Like I said, straight from the horses mouth. You & Mr. Abenojar provide the proof, you guys made the claim.

13.) we will give you and your group 1 week to produce the document. we will counter check your document with our chinese delegation based in manila. please let us concentrate on this south col basecamp accusation of you and your mountaineering group. we will base our own comment on mr. abenojar's case if you can prove to us otherwise.

Fr Pinoy Climber: You my friend do not have the right to demand things from me. You are not my mother , you dont know me and certainly I dont work for you, Mr. Abenojar or Mr. Oracion, Mr. Garduce as you keep on insisting.

14.) tito pao, namaste! please check with the philipins immigration as well so we will have more than one counter check on this very valuable information. this is the only accusation to mr. abenojar that we can all verify through offical government records.

Fr Pinoy Climber :Well, easy thing, let Mr. Abenojar produce his passport during the said period and not just a photocopy of it. I can refer you to Fimer President Fidel Ramos and his aides then as well as the executives of ABSCBN- Channel 2 to verify of Dale made a 1993-94 bid on everest that fizzled out.

15.) Lastly, we know that mr. abenojar is not a messner but in a fact that mr. abenojar reached 7,100mtrs twice (for acclimatization purpose) without supplemental oxygen because we and the international everest expedition 2006 (spanish team, french team, canadian team, others) saw him climbing to the south col camp and reaching it without supplemental oxygen. it is bitterly cold and utterly undescribly fatiguing without a lunch break to ascend the semi-vertical ice wall from 6,500mtrs without supplemental oxygen. and for a first timer high altitude climber to get at 7,100mtrs without supplemental oxygen is not a joke-you can die. try it so will will understand what we are saying here. mr. abenojar for a fact left advance base camp (we heard from other sherpa teams) at about 8am and reached north col at around 7pm. mr. abenojar used supplemental oxygen as advised by his sherpas starting at 7,101mtrs and up. do not underestimate what an everest climber can endure. let me ask you mr. pinoy climber just for curiosity sake, are you a high altitude climber yourself?

Fr Pinoy Climber :Well, nobody, I mean nobody fr the teams that summitted during that day or period ever recall seeing Mr. Abenojar beoynd the zone of death. Ther are however 2 reports as published in mounteverestnews.com saying that they saw Mr. Abenojar descending on a yak with his sherpa pulling the yak and this was days before he claimed he summitted.

You didnt summit, so you didnt see him either. There are enough reading, video materials and guides today for me to know how is it to summit everest.Fact? They saw a person who looked like Dale in a red suit. Nobody saw him up close nor spoke to him.Now how many guys went up North Col in a red suit? I know the Malaysian and others on the Turkish team did.

The russian, turkish & malaysian expeditions came and went without mentioning that they saw him or even talked to him on, near or right below the summit. Instead, a certain canadian named rick winters who never summitted North Col that day or month believed he did.

A TRUE PINOY CLIMBER.

AS A PARTING SHOT, I WILL SUBMIT TO TITO PAO AND HOWARD DUCK THE PAPER TRAIL AND REFERENCES THEY CAN CROSS CHECK ONCE I HAVE ALL THE DOCS READY. PLS SEND ME YOUR CONTACT INFO.

himalayan climber 14nov2006

Wow...what a difference a few days make. Sorry for the long wait, I was busy with choir activities since Christmas is getting near. I'll try to address your claims.

Pinoy Climber, I do agree with you. As far as the Philippine general public is concerned, it's Oracion and Emata who made it to the top. This is the same reason why the two of them were commended by the President---not that we're getting political here, but it's a way for the government (regardless of who is the President) to recognize Filipinos for what they've done.

You don't have to contact me to show your sources. One of Wikipedia's mottos is be bold, so please be bold enough to make the necessary changes yourself (besides, it's free). If anyone contests your changes, we can discuss it here on the talk page but just to be sure you won't come to that, I strongly suggest to include proper citations to your edits. If you need help, please feel free to ask for my help.

And, by the way, I would suggest to please refrain from writing in ALL CAPS. It's considered shouting on the Internet, and we prefer everyone to be civil when discussing on Wikipedia. Just to help me read through the response you've made, I indented your edits with colons (:). Please do this next time if you're writing in response to a particular paragraph, just like what you did.

Himalayan Climber, first, I'd also like to extend the same reminder to you. please be civil when discussing an article on Wikipedia. For both of you, you don't have to call each other names (or say something close to that). We are here to discuss facts that we can include in the article to help improve it, not to criticize each other's motives for making these changes. Wikipedia is not a forum or a soapbox. (I also extend this same reminder to Pinoy Climber).

Himalayan Climber, you have been reminded more than once to properly cite your sources and make sure that we who do not have access to your information can verify that they are true. You have been given more than enough time, but instead you have persisted in reintroducing the same edits that I have removed earlier without properly citing your sources (and making sure that we can verify it). Do not complain again if your unsourced edits have been modified; otherwise, make sure you're doing it right.

And one more thing, Himalayan Climber: for all that you've been writing about us Filipinos being unfair to Mr. Dale Abenojar, your IP address reveals that it's an IP address assigned to Smart Telecoms Broadband---in other words, you're writing in from the Philippines. Can you please explain how this could be possible?

--- Tito Pao 13:27, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

dear filipino climber, i am are asking for forgiveness if my words offended you or any filipino climber in anyway or form.

but we still think you wrote to much rubbish. it is very obvious from your reply that you and your contacts are out to destroy mr. abenojar's character whatever it takes. and we are smelling that you and your sources have what it takes (resources) to destroy those whom you do not favor. we hope there is not much filipino climbers like you and your sources. it is not the end for you pinoy climber. people change. thinking people change for the better. anyone can change as long as they live.

now, for the sake of ending this unending drama you present, (i am sorry i cannot answer back tomorrow since we are preparing for a climb in indonesia-kartenz pyramid) we suggest you email mr. abenojar directly and befriend him instead. his email is in the home page article-monterosa website. let him answer himself your accusations towards him and we believe it will settle things between you and that peaceful climber. he mentioned before that he never had any grudge over people that say bad things to him and that he continues to say he loved all his detractors. we think he is a nice person to talk to. no boastfulness came out from his mouth. talk to him. never judge a book by its cover. when and if he talks to you, we believe the two of you might end up becoming buddies instead. listen to both sides of story mr. pinoy climber. dont present just one side of the picture. let him speak to you. it will enlighten your one sided sense.

peace be to you all filipino climbers.

dear tito pao, please accept my heartfelt apologies for unintentional mistakes in wikipedia's rules. i am here in your country. very kind and very accomodating filipinos. we are very grateful to our filipino-chinese friends for guesting us. we are meeting up with mr. abenojar tomorrow at the international airport. he wants to bid us a safe journey. he is such a mild mannered person we dont understand at all the fuss about him-we hope all will be settled in time. give him a chance to defend himself-although we think he prefers to listen intead of talking but in any case, try to listen to what he has to say if and when he speaks. he has kind words for all and and he speaks in all humility. peace be to you tito pao. i hope all is well with us.

my companions and i will be flying out tomorrow. we loved your boracay island!!!

himalayan climber dec19 2006

Tito Pao,

Will be advised, will edit and revise subject to posters biased and self serving posting.

My guess for the the smart wifi query is that somebody got caught with their with their hands in the cookie jar or could it be Dale's sherpa vacationing in th philippines?

I have tried emailing to the 7 summits club , mr. Thurmalingan and the Turkish groups and they have not replied and they refused comment. Please see 7summits.com to verify that Dale planned to climb in the early 90's, he was turned down by the club for lack of experience.

Like I said you draw your conclusions, the more we discuss the points the more smokescreen they blow. And thats what creates doubt.

For the last time, I maintain, I am not part of any of Leo or Romys group as the Himalayan climber kepes on insisting. For sure they dont even know me.

Flight and silence is the admission of guilt. I rest my case.

All the public is asking is that he shows in public for scrutiny the following :

1.) The original photo and raw not edited footage of his summit climb. Subject it to inspection by all those to wish to examine it, not persons or entities that they choose to show to.

2.) Full disclosure of his sponsors for the climb.

But Mr. Abenojar said that the reason why he doesnt have a summit video or enough photos is that he ran out of film. Did he use film or digital? Confused I am.

3.) That the "Child on Everest" film shown to the public free of charge was shown to "select guests and friends". Hence no ticket,no entry.

4.) Go a a live interview rather than prepared or taped tv interviews.

Hi Pinoy Climber,

- Dale did not summit North Col he passed it. It's only up to 7000m. Most of his videos were taken at 7000m (A child in everest). Also your understanding that he did not reach the death zone is also false since he has a video up to 8300m ( A child in everest). Death zone as per wiki starts at 8000m. The background footage is the elevated 2nd step . He was also interviewed by Henry Omaga Diaz during this time at his radio program. You can cross reference with the video shown at Channel 23 of Greg Mallory for the apperance of 2nd step.

- I was able to watch the film though I was seated last since I had no invites.

- His sponsors were also shown at GMA 7 one of them the owner of Shell Maya Makati. Lucio Tan is one of his sponsors now.

Toxicfish 12:28, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

To wiki, why is it that you have posted "the neutrality of this page is disputed"? I dont understand why it is nessesary to post this negative scenario in front of the page if all entries to this article have been verified (i presume wiki verifies its entries) and is verifiable.

May I suggest that wiki post a clear and certified true copy of leo oracion's summit certificate from the nepalese govt and wiki post a clear certified true copy of dale abenojar's summit certificate from the china tibet mountaineering association so everyone can compare both their summit dates. why do i say this? it is called, "res ipsa liquitor" the documents speaks for itself. to be fair to all concerned, wiki must post this factual documents as part of dale abenojar's entry on his "proofs" page.

from several public and published recognitions, heracleo oracion seems to be reaping the rewards that does not genuinely belong to him. this is what i have read from the page articles of leo oracion in wikipedia and dale abenojar in wikipedia as well.

dale abenojar summitted on May 15, 2006 via the North Col in Tibet, China while heraclio oracion summitted on May 17, 2006 on the South Col, Nepal

heraclio oracion based from published prints has claimed that he is "the first Filipino to summit Everest" - this is a clear misrepresentation and I believe it should be instead printed as:

heraclio oracion is the "first Filipino to summit Everest via South Col, May 17, 2006" while dale abenojar is the "first Filipino to summit Everest via North Col, May 15, 2006"

if we are speaking of generalizations as in "Everest" - the mountain, technically, it is dale abenojar who first summitted Everest when we base the factual summit certificates of both these "firsts" everest's north col (Tibet China) and south col (Nepal) side summiteers.

To leo oracion, be fair and just. correct your title to preserve your honor.

To dale abenojar, dont pray for miracles. wake up and defend your right of title.

malacanang 06:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

To malacanang,

First of all, the standard greeting for new user: Welcome on Wikipedia, and feel free to be a part of the community.

The reason why the NPOV ("neutrality is disputed") tag is in place is because an anonymous poster and someone named "Himalayan climber" kept on posting something that would be considered under Wikipedia regulations as original research. It is a no-no to post anything that qualifies as original research, especially if it can't be backed up by other secondary sources (e.g. newspapers, academic research). The contents of the article contradict what is, by now, taken as common knowledge in the Philippines --- that is, Oracion and Emata were the first Filipinos to reach the summit, while Dale Abenojar's claim is still disputed. Just to clarify, this is not something that I made up. If you read through most Philippine newspapers and even other foreign media reports, not one of them will confirm Oracion's claim.

With regard to the certification, I suggest that you present this piece of information to Wikipedia (while complying with the guidelines on editing and sourcing), since it appears that you know of a way of getting this information. Preferably, this piece of information should be easily verifiable by disinterested persons or organizations. That would be truly appreciated, because this is something that has been missing for long.

And, one more thing, please don't refer to us other editors as "wiki", because by making your edit to this page, you are already part of the Wikipedia community. I've posted something on your "user talk page" for more helpful information to get you started editing on WP. --- Tito Pao 12:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi TitoPao,

May be you mean no foreign media reports would confirm Dale's claim. Toxicfish 02:27, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Not exactly. It's just that, this article needs more of media reports, since the Philippine Everest Expedition was widely covered by the media, and if we can bring more of these here, then that would helpus verify Dale's claim, if ever there are some local and foreign reports would support it. --- Tito Pao 12:59, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Howard & TitoPao,

As of this time some of the links are not accessible for Philippine Star and Inquirer how do we fix this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Toxicfish (talk • contribs)

PDI has moved its links from http://www.inq7.net/ to

http://www.inq7.net/. I can't guarantee that the links will be fixed if we change the domain, so we'll need to manually search the new Inquirer archives. The Philippine Star has a different link for its permanent archives. --- Tito Pao 12:59, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi TitoPao,

Kindly include in your revision - The Himalayan Database had included him in the list of Everest summitteers^[1].—Preceding unsigned comment added by Toxicfish (talk • contribs)

Feel free to add it on the page yourself :) --- Tito Pao 12:59, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

For PhilStar, the task will be easy if you remembered the date of publication (usually the day after it happened), they have an archive. --Howard the Duck 16:32, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello Toxicfish,

Thank you for clarifying the points I've made.

I stand corrected I meant he went via the North Col route.

Also your understanding that he did not reach the death zone is also false since he has a video up to 8300m ( A child in everest).

A for Dale having video up to 8300m That again is what he claims. I've got a few people who went thru the North route thru a commerical climb that they saw A Child in Everest and some of the footages dont fit with the apparent height climbed.

- I was able to watch the film though I was seated last since I had no invites.

And some unlucky ones where not able to go inside.

- His sponsors were also shown at GMA 7 one of them the owner of Shell Maya Makati. Lucio Tan is one of his sponsors now

And this is contrary to his claims that he had no sponsors at the time. He had more than a few.

My contention is that there is doubt because he has a past. There is doubt because of the way he presents his evidence. There is doubt because he confuses people about contradicting statements and actions.

Truly yours, Filipino Climber

[edit] Filipino Climber, ...

I know I've been saying this for the nth time, but I still strongly suggest that you register yourself your own account on Wikipedia. Your (shared) IP address was banned for several times, and it may be difficult for you to make edits on any Wikipedia articles if another user in your IP address vandalizes an article and gets you inadvertently blocked. Registering your own account would make things easier for you. Also, please don't forget to sign with four tildes (~~~~) --- Tito Pao 23:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Howard, TitoPao,

I perform a major edits. Toxicfish 05:45, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Howard, TitoPao,

What is d process in removing the NPOV tag?Toxicfish 06:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

To Tito Pao & Howard & Toxic fish, sorry i lost my malacanang password. my new username is ermita. our office has a clear photocopy of both mr. abenojar's and mr. oracion's summit certificates and i will upload them on wikipedia for your reference. we also have the factual knowledge of every aspect (oldest and most recent which is the philstar headline news on the himalayan database that includes and confirms mr. abenojar's everest summit ascent thus etching him in the international mountaineering community's historical records) of mr. abenojar's everest ascent.

here are the documented proofs and the international recognition of mr. abenojar and mr. oracion:

kindly assist how this can be edited to mr. abenojar's main page as one of his "recognition" the URL of the himalayan database with mr. abenojar's name and his summit date on may 15 at 845am nepal time http://www.himalayandatabase.com/2006%20Season%20Lists/2006%20Spring%20A5.html

the URL of the himalayan database with oracion's name and his summit date on may 17 at 15:30 http://www.himalayandatabase.com/2006%20Season%20Lists/2006%20Spring%20A10.html

the URL of philstar frontpage article on: database confirms abenojar everest conquest http://www.philstar.com/philstar/show_content.asp?article=301608

here are the copies of mr. abenojar and mr. oracion's summit certificates: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Leo_Oracion_Summit_Certificate.jpg#filelinks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Dale%27s_certificate_compress.JPG#file kindly assist how this can be edited to mr. abenojar's main page as one of his "proofs"

i hope these these documents speak for themselves. (edited by ermita 16feb)

ermita 16feb 2007

To Filipino climber, you say that you "got a few people who went thru the North route thru a commerical climb that they saw A Child in Everest and some of the footages dont fit with the apparent height climbed" is confusing. how can you have gathered your "few people who went thru the north route" to watch the film showing of child in everest in megamall? are these few people of yours Filipino Everest north col climbers (is there other north col climbers i am not aware of?) or foreign everest north col summiteers to say that the footages at the death zone dont match? We only know of one Filipino Everest North col climber in the name of mr. abenojar. could there possibly be other everest north col climbers that have flown to manila just to see the child in everest? this statement is obviously peculiar, dont you think so Tito Pao/Howard Toxicfish? are we supposed to be telling factual statements here Filipino climber? dear Tito Pao, kindly inform Filipino climber here that his statements could be gravely misleading for the uninformed.

(A for Dale having video up to 8300m That again is what he claims. I've got a few people .)

- I was able to watch the film though I was seated last since I had no invites. And some unlucky ones where not able to go inside.

- His sponsors were also shown at GMA 7 one of them the owner of Shell Maya Makati. Lucio Tan is one of his sponsors now And this is contrary to his claims that he had no sponsors at the time. He had more than a few.

My contention is that there is doubt because he has a past. There is doubt because of the way he presents his evidence. There is doubt because he confuses people about contradicting statements and actions.

[edit] Article Correction

Tito Pao, kindly make proper corrections as to the hospital Mr. Abenojar.

1. He was confined in upon his arrival from Nepal, its Cardinal Santos Hospital and not Medical City 2. Liza is his wife's name. He has four children, Alexandra, Katrina, Daniela, Rafaela Dale

upm --Upm 11:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)19feb2007

[edit] Dale Abenojar summit certificate in jpg file uploaded from wikimedia

Tito Pao, internal link is: [[1]] --Upm 12:02, 19 February 2007 (UTC) 19feb2006

[edit] article correction complete name of Abenojar

Tito Pao, asking permission for an additional entry as to the correct complete name of Abenojar as per official Quezon City Hall documents. Complete name is Dale Sto. Tomas Abenojar --Upm 12:23, 19 February 2007 (UTC)19feb2006

[edit] additional entry to Abenojar's article

Tito Pao, kindly add whichever entries are appropriate. Abenojar's birthdate is: 27April1963 Abenojar's residence is: Tandang Sora, Quezon City --Upm 12:34, 19 February 2007 (UTC)19feb2006

[edit] Repetition in the article

Hi Tito Pao & Howard,

I propose that these repetition be merged and shortened. In addition, can we combine the “Proofs” and all events related to his expedition to the "Expedition" heading.Toxicfish 02:25, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] suggestion on First News last paragraph entry

The attached paragraph seem to be not related to the topic of First News on Dale. What do you think Tito Pao/Howard?

Oracion and Emata was awarded Athletes of the year by the Philippine Sportswriter Association.[26]. Garduce on the hand was awarded Order of Lakandula [27]by Malacañang.

--Artvaldez 15:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Tito Pao, I suggest that these noted awards be transfered and entered in the article of these other Everest summiteers.--Artvaldez 15:08, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it can still be included, but with an additional note that Dale was not one of the awardees. At least, that's what I think the intention was for including these pieces of information. I'll take care of this part for now. If it's not included in the other articles, we can include it there.--- Tito Pao 15:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

copy that Tito Pao :-)--Artvaldez 10:54, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I actually think that should be removed altogether, but I think Tito Pao's suggestion is good enough for me. --Howard the Duck 15:07, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Tito Pao/Howard, Abenojar's birthdate , April 27, 1963 was taken from an article of Ms. Korina Sanches, page 28, July 2006 issue of People Asia Magazine which is published by Stargate Media Corporation --Artvaldez 01:25, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Ermita,

Kindly provide the necessary info to the images you uploaded ( certificates ). It will be deleted later if the info will be not provided.

--Toxicfish 06:22, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Tito Pao/Howard, may i suggest correction to entry on article "The Discovery Channel has also a footage of Dale in 8500 meter while going down". Philstar also had a typo error on camp 3 height "going down from the peak to Camp 3 which is around 8,500 feet". Fact is Everest North Col Camp 3 is 8,300 meters.--Artvaldez 00:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] abenojar certificate

Tito pao, I am totally disoriented on how to properly tag this scanned photo of Abenojar's summit certificate provided by the Philstar newspaper and allowed by Mr. Abenojar to be posted in the abenojar article. It is agreed that the scanned photo is only for the use of Phil Daily Inquirer, Philstar and wikipedia. Other newspapers should ask permission from Mr. Abenojar by writing to him directly at daleabenojar@yahoo.com

Please help me to add the proper copyright tag. I am having a hard time understanding this process--Artvaldez 04:36, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Additional contribution to Abenojar article

I have new information on Abenojar's religious affinity. I am asking permission to include it on Abenojar's article.--Artvaldez 23:41, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Artvaldez,

Pls do not put blog/forum as the reference.

tks --Toxicfish 08:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Toxicfish,

Pls let me know in my talk where i put blog/forum as a reference so i may make the proper correction. Also, can you help me with the proper copyright tag on the Abenojar certificate. I seem to be confused.

many tks--Artvaldez 14:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

That scanned certificate has restriction on its usage so it cannot be posted at wiki. If it is available in other site other than wiki we can put it in the reference or linked to it. --Toxicfish 05:11, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi ArtValdez,

Your source in religion section include this "http://fpumc.blogspot.com/2005_10_09_fpumc_archive.html"

Below are some of the entries that you did not provide a reference.

• Mount Pulag climb
• Mount Pinatubo traverse climb
• BayFresh Over all Champion
• Tough truck Over all Champion

--Toxicfish 04:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] potencially libelous comments by Mr. Francisco

Tito Pao/Howard/Toxicfish,

I was legally informed, and I have reason to believe that the Note#7[[2]] which bore obvious bitter personal comments by Mr. Francisco are potentially libelous statements. It was given as a reference to the subtitle background on this article. May I suggest taking out this note. What do you think?

many tks--Artvaldez 15:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Artvaldez,

There was no mention of potentially libelous statements or a portion thereof in the wiki article of Abenojar. I think the potentially libelous statements are found in this talk page.

Tks, --Toxicfish 06:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] summit proof edit

Hi Tito Pao/Howard/Toxicfish, I noticed a notable mistake in the inclusion so I took the liberty to correct the entry. I removed because statement is not a summit proof--Artvaldez 16:59, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I also deleted "In contrast to Hawley, EverestNews.com did not include Dale in their summit list for 2006" since everestnews.com never had a 2006 everest summit list in its website. --Artvaldez 11:04, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sherpa Contoversy

I have included the latest big news on Dr. Ted Esguerra's (First Philippine Mt. Everest Expedition) conflicting media statement and another big news on Abenojars' Sherpa's revelation. Both news items were published by the Philippine Star Newspaper--Artvaldez 01:03, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Abenojar's personal website

I have included Mr. Abenojar personal website in the see also section. --Artvaldez 01:06, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recognition

I have added a few information on the recognition page --Artvaldez 13:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I have also included the full list of Everest summiteers in Excel format under EVEREST ALL [3] which states Dale is the 2 614th Everest su--Artvaldez 13:44, 15 November 2007 (UTC)mmiteer while Leo is the 2 740th Everest summiteer.

UNBELIEVABLE! and you guys are still at it. You obviously aren't the real Art Valdez so stop using the Mr. Valdez alias.

[edit] Edits without reference

hi artvaldez, you have removed the news from EverestNews.com in which Dale is not included on their summit list. Once I have the link again I will return them back. Further, you keep on adding reference to church site/blog site w/c is not allowed on wiki.

In the sports section there are some interviews in which you give the website of Radio Station. This is not a verifiable reference. I will list them one by one once I gathered them all and request it to be removed. The reference to the blog site will be removed immediately. Toxicfish (talk) 14:38, 23 December 2007 (UTC)