Talk:Dakota War of 1862

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Contents 1 Origins 2 Page name 3 Death toll? 4 Merge 5 Concentration Camp or Fort Snelling stockade? 6 A Comment on Revisionism and Titles 7 References and Citations 8 Page move 9 Requested move 9.1 Survey 9.1.1 Survey - in support of the move 9.1.2 Survey - in opposition to the move 9.2 Discussion 10 Deadlinks restored 11 Recent edits 12 Not Largest Mass Execution 13 New page

[edit] Origins

I live near where the "Sioux Uprising" took place. I have many times heard a story about how the war started over a few potatoes. The story goes (and I don't remember the important detail) but either natives or some soldiers were hungry and dug up some potatoes. An argument erupted over the right for the potatoe taking party to take the potatoes. Soon after that the violence began. Has anyone else heard this story? Andercee 06:05, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page name

Just curious if anyone thinks there is a better name for this article. I researched this a tiny bit a while back, and some Native American articles I saw on it had a lot of disdain for the name "Sioux Uprising", as it seems to be somewhat biased (particularly since some Dakota/Lakota still seem to consider the name "Sioux" to be an insult, even though others like the Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux are comfortable with it..) Anyway, I'd been using the name U.S.-Dakota Conflict to refer to it in some earlier articles. I suppose U.S.-Dakota War of 1862 might be somewhat more common, though it's hard to say if these events work out to be a "war" or not.. —User:Mulad (talk) 15:19, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)

I think "Sioux Uprising" is still the most commonly used name for that conflict. I know some people have concerns about it and try to promote different names, but there doesn't seem to be one settled alternative yet. Some people dislike the name Sioux, but I have also heard people use it as a term of pride to describe themselves. Jonathunder 15:48, 2005 Apr 26 (UTC)

I'd also note both references for this article use "Sioux Uprising". If we found Native American sources (and we should), they may not use that. I did create some more redirects I hope may be helpful. Jonathunder 16:08, 2005 Apr 26 (UTC)

I added a link to an extensive annotated bibliography on the Minnesota Historical Society website, which I think will be a really good source of both primary and secondary references. It calls the event the "Dakota War of 1862" or "Dakota Conflict". Jonathunder 16:56, 2005 Apr 26 (UTC)

The event, at the time that it occured, and for the subsequent 110 years, was called the Sioux Uprising in all English-language sources yet extant. Works covering the topic since the 1970s have, in some but not all cases, used other terminology, though as noted above there is no agreement as to the exact form this other name should take. I consider this to be revisionism of the worst form, because regardless of the objections (some valid) to the name "Sioux Uprising," and the horror of the event itself, the historical record has already chosen for us. Schulz (see references on article) uses the term "Sioux Uprising" and he is hardly an apologist for the Federal government. I also note that opposition to the use of the word "Sioux" to describe the Dakota/Lakota people is not universal. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 21:23, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• I have to agree - the Manual of style makes clear that we should use the most commonly used name for the article title to facilitate google searches, etc. I encountered a similar dilema on a page I have worked quite a bit on — Red River Rebellion — which is considered by many now not to have been a rebellion at all in the strictest sense of the term. Nevertheless, that is the name that has come down to us and is what the overwhelming majority of people probably use as a search key. Fawcett5 21:51, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Well, I think "revisionism of the worst form" is a bit harsh, hopefully reserved for periods when history is intentionally invented or destroyed. I'm definitely interested in seeing facts rather than propaganda. Anyway, I'm not going to be too picky about the title as long as there are appropriate redirects; I was just looking for some general opinions. —User:Mulad (talk) 17:01, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)

• The historians at the Minnesota Historical Society (presumably in cooperation with other historians) use the term "Dakota War of 1862" to describe the conflict. There's not likely to be a label acceptable to everyone, but the purpose of a label is to provide a descriptive summary that's useful.

One one hand, the old label "Sioux Uprising" is familiar to us old folks who grew up with it. The question is whether that is an accurate and useful label. The word Sioux has been adopted by some American Indian groups, but fervently rejected by others. Dakota comes much closer to being a generally accepted name among my acquaintances. If what we're debating is who has the power to label the event, then perhaps there ought to be multiple articles, one from the main stream historians, one from the Dakota, and one from populist history buffs.

What used to be called an "uprising" was a label that laid blame on those who took action and absolved those who were attacked of any complicity. The settlers who were robbed and killed by the Dakota in 1862 may have been totally innocent victims, but the society to which they belonged was complicit in creating the situation in which the killings took place. I'd argue that "uprising" is an inappropriate label. I'm not sure "war" is appropriate either, but it was adopted by the historians who, I presume, have given a lot more thought to the issue than I have. "Conflict" is pretty vague and really doesn't describe a series of events that includes several military (and military-type) battles. Lacking a better term, I'd advocate following the example of the MHS and using "Dakota War of 1862" as a title. BartBee 15:36, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

• As for the most common name for the series of events, while older sources use "Sioux Uprising" (see the dates of citied sources), any students who have used the Minnesota Historical Society textbooks in the past 20 years (which includes nearly all Minnesota students) will know the "Dakota War of 1862" and not the older label. -BartBee 21:32, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Check the list of sources again. There is a book published this spring which uses "Sioux Uprising" in the title. Jonathunder 00:12, 2005 May 9 (UTC)

• As to the use of "Sioux" by Native groups, the Shakopee Mdewakanton use the word, but only sparingly (perhaps as part of marketing their casino to non-Indians).

Their web site URL is http://www.ccsmdc.org/, part of which ("smdc") I assume stands for the Shakopee Medweakanton Dakota Community. The main page title is "Welcome to the Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux Community."

The Mendota Mdewakanton web site is at http://www.mendotadakota.org/, and the title of the main page is "Mendota Mdewakanton Dakota Community." The word "Sioux" cannot be found on the site.

The Prairie Island community web site is at http://www.prairieisland.org/. The main page title is, "Prairie Island Indian Community." That page says, "..the people of Prairie Island welcome you. Our Mdewakanton Dakota community is..."

I got to know members of that community when I lived in Red Wing. "Sioux" is often used as a term of pride, particularly by younger members. Jonathunder 00:12, 2005 May 9 (UTC)

The men I knew on the Intertribal Council 25 years ago when I worked on archaeolgoy projects at Hamline University would roll their eyes at someone who naively used the term "Sioux." They were genuinely offended when someone who knew better used it. The French term was an insult. BartBee 02:34, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

The Upper Sioux Community has a web site at http://www.uppersiouxcommunity-nsn.gov. The title of the main page is "The Upper Sioux Community Pejuhutazizi Oyate." It uses the Dakota name (Pejuhutazizi Oyate) about as often as it uses "Sioux."

The Jackpot Junction web site, on the "Our Culture" page, http://www.jackpotjunction.com/culture/, says, "While Lower Sioux was the name given to our band and our home after treaties with the United States in 1851, members of the Lower Sioux Community are part of the Mdewakanton band of Dakota. Dakota is a word that means "friend." We traditionally called this area Cansa'yapi ("where they marked the trees red")."

The Minnesota Indian Affairs Council web site is at http://www.cri-bsu.org/IA_web/htdocs/tribes/index.html. It uses the term "Sioux" to identify the communities at the Upper and Lower Sioux Agencies: "The four Dakota Communities include: Shakopee Mdewakanton located south of the Twin Cities near Prior Lake; Prairie Island located near Red Wing; Lower Sioux located near Redwood Falls; and Upper Sioux whose lands are near the city of Granite Falls." -BartBee 23:39, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm not an expert in this area, by any means, but I do live in the region. The current name is traditional, but probably somewhat inaccurate and inappropriate. It's a lot like the term "indian" actually, which on Wikipedia is Indigenous peoples of the Americas. Dakota would be more accurate than Sioux, despite the noted fact that "Sioux" is in common usage, even by Native Americans. "Uprising" is rather leading and biased, though it doesn't really qualify as a "war" either. The term, conflict would be best in order to maintain NPOV. As it is, the title is clearly from a settler's perspective. --Jcbutler 19:54, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

"Sioux Uprising", capitalized as it is seems to be an official name given to the conflict by the non-native government and is used in many of the references cited. Perhaps the native population has given the series of events a name as well, and if so perhaps a combined title would be appropriate. But lacking alternative sources I don't think we should create a more PC name that has no documented basis. --Appraiser 20:43, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it's more a matter of accuracy than political correctness. BartBee suggested above that older sources use Sioux Uprising whereas the Minnesota Historical Society textbooks now say "Dakota War of 1862." Also, here is what a friend of mine with some knowledge of the topic had to say... "It used to be called the The Great Sioux Massacre of 1862, then it was the Great Sioux Uprising of 1862. Later, it was just the Sioux Uprising of 1862. In the mid-20th century, the Minnesota Historical Society started to say The Dakota War of 1862. In the mid-1980s, the MHS said The Dakota Conflict of 1862. Some contemporary Dakota academics say The Dakota-U.S. War of 1862. The reason for this is that the Dakota did declare war and this declaration was made to both Sibley and Ramsey..." The term "Dakota conflict" is used at the following websites: [1], [2], [3]. However, these pages use "uprising": [4], [5]. At the Minnesota Public Radio link, the author suggests that the most popular current usage is "U.S.-Dakota Conflict of 1862." One commentatory facetiously says that it should be designated "The Great White Robbery of the Dakotas." To borrow contemporary terminology, I suppose we could also call it The Sioux Insurgency. ;) --Jcbutler 00:01, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I have always been very much on the side of the Dakota, living near, and visiting Pike Island regularly. I have a book I bought at the MN History Center titled "Dakota War of 1962". I began in with one attitude, and finished with another. Clearly this was not an isolated incident, and was in a larger context of the U.S. Government forcing Indians out of their lands in many places, and uprooting the basis of their culture to change them in to farmers. The situation is complex, with a multitude of incidents as part of that war, and not any one thing. The beginning of the war was sparked by the murder of a family by two Indians, relative outcasts in their Indian communities. Because of the multitude of other factors, many of them circumstantial, many innocent people (on both sides) were trapped in a situation beyond their control. There is blame to spread for partial responsibility on both sides, and on many people. It is more complex than a simple reaction to the the Indians being forced off their lands, and promises broken. Many innocent people suffered greatly. In the end, the Dakota suffered the most with their culture completely shattered and broken. As for the pioneers, certainly many of them were innocent as well. But, in the scope of pioneers dying trying to pursue their dreams, the number is relatively small.

I am still doing research in my spare time on this topic, but it will be a long time until we can write a Wikipedia article that truly gives the topic full and fair coverage. In my mind, the Dakota War of 1862 is an appropriate title. It was much more than an incident, or an insurgency. Atom 13:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

The book title certainly adds credence to a name change. Out of curiosity, I Googled (in quotes):

• "Sioux Uprising of 1862" - 9620 hits
• "Sioux Uprising" - 65,900 hits
• "Dakota Conflict of 1862" - 698 hits
• "Dakota Conflict" - 21,500 hits
• "Dakota War of 1862" - 765 hits
• "Dakota War" 36,300" hits

This [6] is interesting. I suspect that learned people at MHS and MPR would like to replace the 100-yr. old term, "Sioux Uprising" with a more accurate and balanced term for good reasons. Racism and unfathomable atrocities were perpetrated by people on both sides. One side had the real estate first. The other side won.

Based on the introductory paragraphs of war, my opinion is that it was indeed a war. I also believe that any group of people should be called by a name of their own choosing, thus Dakota is preferred over Sioux. A war has two sides. The date differentiates it from other conflicts.

My conclusion is that I like Dakota-U.S. War of 1862 --Appraiser 17:13, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Death toll?

I don't have a dead-tree reference handy, but is there a good accounting of the overall death toll (preferably separated into the Native Americans, civilians, and US troops if any)? I only ask since the Native American massacres page currently says "As many as 800 settlers killed" which seems off by about an order of magnitude, unless I missed something pretty major... —User:Mulad (talk) 17:01, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)

The available figures are inexact, in part because the uprising had no clear and obvious beginning point, and in part because many who were wounded later died from their wounds. I've seen estimates of whites killed between 500 to 800. About 150 were killed in major battles:

1. 40 killed in Spirit Lake, Iowa, May 6, 1857
2. 5 killed in Litchfield, Minnesota, August 17, 1862
3. 44 killed at the Redwood Agency, August 18, 1862
4. 16 killed in New Ulm, Minnesota, August 19, 1862
5. 34 killed in New Ulm, Minnesota, August 23, 1862
6. 13 killed in the Battle of Birch Coulee, September 2, 1862

There were also some whites taken captive, who were later executed, particularly at Spirit Lake.

But the greatest number killed were isolated farm families and townspeople in the area surrounding New Ulm in the period from August 18-August 23. Some sources estimate that as many as 400 were killed, many of them women and children. It was this sort of banditry, moreso than the battles themselves, that incited such outrage among settlers; and the Sioux who were ultimately executed were those who the government believed were culpable for the murder of settlers outside the context of any of the battles.

[7]

The Uninvited Co., Inc. 20:37, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

There are now three separate articles on this one conflict. Each has some content the others do not. This one has an edit history going back to August 31, 2004. There is also Minnesota Sioux War 1862 (first edit February 18, 2005) and Dakota War of 1862 which I created as a redirect on April 26, 2005 but which for the past few days has been turned into a fork, basically, of this article. We need to fix this. Jonathunder 02:43, 2005 May 11 (UTC)

I have now merged the articles, though someone who has studied this more heavily will probably have to do some fact/timeline checking. If someone still really wants to move the article to a different name, at the moment I would recommend U.S.-Dakota War of 1862. The good things: the name shows both parties involved, plus the date. It calls it a war, and I think that the number of casualties and the fact that multiple named battles comprise it support that idea. The U.S. never declared war, though arguably the Dakota did (also see these comments at MPR about naming). That page also doesn't have an edit history yet ;-) The bad thing: it's not the most common name (though it isn't vague, which is good, IMHO). —Mulad (talk) 05:48, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Concentration Camp or Fort Snelling stockade?

In the "Aftermath" section the term "concentration camp" is used to describe the confinement of some of the Dakota people after the war, in the winter of 1862-63. I find this not to represent the "neutral point of view" which Wiki articles are supposed to follow. The Wiki article on the term 'concentration camp' says it was not coined until the 1902 Boer War, so no one at the time could have used it to describe the 1700 men, women and children being confined in the stockade at Fort Snelling. Schultz (Duane Schultz, author of "Over the Earth I Came-The Great Sioux Uprising of 1862, St. Martins Press, 1992) says they went there willingly for food and shelter, as well as protection from the whites who had survived the massacres. And if they had used the term 'concentration camp', it would not have had the connotations of Dachau and Auschwitz which it acquired in the 1940's. The facts, presented objectively, are a grim enough indictment of their treatment, without using a term which calls up anachronistic images of Nazi guards, or of British guarding Boers in Africa. I propose that the article say that approximately 1700 Dakotas who had not been convicted of crimes were confined in the Fort Snelling stockade for several months in the winter of 1862-63, and that 300 of them perished of measles and other diseases, before they were shipped west to a reservation where another 300 died over the summer, mostly from lack of food (Schultz, pp 276-284). I recommend anyone who really wants to dig into this visit the New Ulm Historical Society, as well as the Minnesota Historical Society, which has the writings of Marion Satterlee. He wrote to many of the white and Dakota survivors years after the events, and collected their reminiscences. He also documented where many of the battles and attacks occurred, right down to the quartersection. Edison 04:05, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A Comment on Revisionism and Titles

As for "The images of innocent individuals and families of struggling pioneer farmers being killed by marauding bands of Dakota, often in horrific and inhumane ways, have remained in the consciousness of the prairie communities of south central Minnesota."

I grew up 40-50 years ago very near the Lower Agency. I was one of those unusual kids who was interested in the history. Most of my cohort knew little or nothing about the war. And I never encountered a "consciousness of the prairie communites" focused on killings of white people by natives. Even farmers who owned land where there were little historic markers (like the one celebrating the killing of Little Crow outside of Redwood Falls) were often unaware of the specifics of what had gone on a century earlier. The most common "consciousness" I recognized in those prairie communites revolved around racist and degrading stereotypes that white people had of the native people around the Lower Agency, but I wouldn't attribute those attitudes to whole communities.

I would have to see some explicit and factual evidence to convince me that any but a few extraordinary people clung to horrific images of murder and mayhem even 50 years ago. And I'd have to wonder about their motives. BartBee

[edit] References and Citations

The citations in this article really need to be cleaned up. Although several good source books and web sites are listed, the statements attributable to each are not cited. And some on-line citation links that do exist, link to an ISD77 web site that is not sourced, and likely not peer-reviewed, as a legitimate source should be. This article needs major work. Appraiser 17:28, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page move

The page was moved in the past, and after much discussion, the name Sioux Uprising was kept, as that is by far still the most common name. If proposing a move, please list here and on Requested Moves, but please don't move first. Jonathunder 21:36, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Jonathunder, could you please contribute above under page name your reasons for wanting to keep it Sioux Uprising? Good reasons to change it have been offered. I waited a week after the previous discussion and no one objected. Thanks. --Appraiser 22:10, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I am in favor of the move. My impression was that there were lots of us lurking who thought that makes perfect sense. As the Dakota prefer to call themselves Dakota, and not Sioux, and as the MN HIstorical society calls it the Dakota War of 1862, it makes perfect sense. Atom 00:17, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that either Dakota War of 1862 or U.S.-Dakota War of 1862 would be the best, if still contentious title. --Jcbutler 00:25, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's possible to "respectfully" label another point of view as silly and sophomoric, but I agree that we shouldn't rush into a name change, especially when we don't have the details quite worked out yet. Let's discuss it here, and most importantly, let's look at all the arguments and evidence for each side. Some variation of Dakota conflict or Dakota war seems to be most frequently used by academics and historical societies. I'm not sure there are any compelling reasons to keep Sioux Uprising, other than the rather weak point that the name has been around for a long time. --Jcbutler 06:00, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, if you read this page you'll see that the discussion has been going on here for nearly a year. This [8] was written over four years ago. The book, Dakota War of 1862 was published in 2001. The book, Dakota Indian War-Claims of 1862 was published in 1874. The topic has been around a while. The power of Wikipedia is that through discussion, debate, and research by several people, the result is better than what any individual could produce. I mistook silence as concensus, and I apologize. As for the word war, I suppose the current conflict in Iraq isn't a war either, since the Iraqis didn't declare war on the U.S. until after the U.S. started bombing. --Appraiser 12:47, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I think there are many names that it could be called, and has been called. Historians seem to have settled on "war". It does not have to be sought by both sides to be called a war, it just has to be one. The government did, in fact commit atrocious acts on innocent people, just as did the Dakota. The nature of atrocities has nothing to do with whether it was a war or not though. Atom 13:36, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

As Univited expressed it well, there are many different things it could be called, but only one thing it is universally known as: one name that is overwhelmingly more common. (Do a google search.) Wikipedia policy is to use the common name for the thing. This is not always what other encyclopedias do, but it is clear here what the name should remain. Jonathunder 14:31, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I find it difficult to believe that anyone who knows as much about this war as you do would use the word "unprovoked" to describe the actions of the Dakota people. The provocations were numerous and took place over an extended time period. People suffered and died because of the actions of government officials, merchants, and settlers. If the native people had had a Jefferson, they might have written a declaration about those provocations.

And while you might see the "attacks" as "indiscriminate," that term insists that everyone see the situation as you do. If the provocations seen by native people all came from non-native people, and their image of hierarchies and differentiated societies is based on their own experiences, then attacks on non-native people were not indiscriminate, they were attacks on the causes of the problems. BartBee

Sadly, "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide" are highly relevant concepts to this discussion, though I would argue that these things were generally the result of actions by the U.S. government, not the behavior of the Dakota. Using words like "unprovoked attacks", not to mention bending the definition of war to exclude this event, demonstrates the considerable mental and verbal gymnastics being used to defend a position that is appearing less and less defensible. Terminology like "sneak" and "slaughter" also adds a heavy dose of emotion to what should be as objective and unbiased an analysis as possible. I'll say again that US Dakota Conflict, or Dakota US War, or something of that nature, would be the most NPOV, and therefore a the most appropriate title for this entry. --Jcbutler 16:21, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

This article has been renamed from Sioux Uprising to Dakota War of 1862 as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 07:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deadlinks restored

JonHarder deleted links to the Minnesota Indian Affairs Council website describing the Upper Sioux and Lower Sioux because the links had gone dead. I feel that the source was a reliable one, and the information was relevant to the article, so I added back links the the Wayback machine web archive for the most recent versions of those pages from 2006. This is a good technique to use when a link goes dead, and is usually better for the project than just deleting a source of information. Edison 18:54, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits

Before getting to the recent changes, this edit use the word:

• "friendlies" — does any scholar use this term? I would be surprise. It isn't a term I expect to find in a good Wikipedia article.

and this edit uses the word:

• "firefight" — does any scholar use this term? It sounds like an anachronism to my ears.

I have some concerns about recent edits. Perhaps the place to start is clarification of some of the insertions:

• "non-combatant" — what author or sources uses this adjective to describe residents of Spirit Lake, Iowa?
• "modern revisionsists" — what author or sources uses this phrase in conjunction with the prison description?
• "diabolical savagery" — what author or sources uses this phrase to describe the crimes of the Dakota?
• "modern commentators generally omit such viscerally compelling personal recollections of gruesome injury and death suffered by white victims while emphasizing the complicity of the pioneer farmers" — what author or source says this or the equivalent?
• "it is hard for modern readers to comprehend the seeming equanimity with which otherwise god-fearing, mild mannered rural folk …" — what author or source says this or the equivalent?

✤ JonHarder ^talk 00:52, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

• I agree that many recent edits are riddled with POV, but I haven't taken the time needed to clean it up, not wanting to completely revert a large number of changes indiscriminately; I do watch it regularly though, and would certainly be supportive of large-scale changes toward NPOV accounting. I don't have any problem with the word "firefight"; I believe "friendlies" is accurate, although not a very scholarly word - a synonym would be better. The other words you mentioned not-too-subtly inject a POV into the article and should be rewritten. --Appraiser 12:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not Largest Mass Execution

This was not the largest mass execution in U.S. history, it was the largest in a single day. The largest mass execution was actually carried out by Confederate Texas, which executed 42 suspected union sympathizers over a several day period (hanged 40 and shot two who tried to escape). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gainesville%2C_Texas#Things_of_note Chegitz guevara 16:35, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I do not see the basis for grouping together executions over some arbitrary period of time to accumulate them to "the largest mass execution." If "several days" can be grouped, then why not several months or several years? How about the executions by the state of Texas over some period of time in recent history? That would far exceed the total attributed to the Confederates. "Mass execution" implies one place, one time. -- Edison (talk) 17:51, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New page

I copied this page into my sandbox and have been editing it for a while now. I used pretty much all the information already in the page and tried to clean it up by wikilinking and heavily editing and reorganizing to make it flow better and comply with summary style. I don't have any of the sources used to get the information that was already in the page, but I'll try to track down some to substantiate the claims made in the page. The page still needs someone to go through and edit/clean up the sources, citations, and references (I'm slowly working on that but there's only so much I could do after staring at it for days). poroubalous (talk) 20:27, 21 December 2007 (UTC)