Talk:Dagor Dagorath

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The previous version of the page said that Arda would end after the Dagor Dagorath, but The Shaping of Middle-Earth says clearly that the Elves and the Powers shall be renewed. It speaks nothing of the End of Arda. I am unaware of any other sources with differing accounts... what are they, if any?

The texts speak about the end of Arda Marred (i.e. the world of the stories), and the renewing of the Elves and Powers in Arda Restored (i.e. the world as it was planned to be). Jor 22:30, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Hîn Húrin

The name of the tale is "Narn i Chîn Húrin", but in isolation the form should be "Hîn Húrin". When the plural article in precedes a word that begins in h, h becomes ch and the final -n of the article disappears. Hîn Húrin, i Chîn Húrin, Narn i Chîn Húrin.

[edit] The text

I rewrote the first section of the article, which stated that "previous versions" of the Silmarillion ended with Mandos' prophecy. In fact, every version that Tolkien ever made of the Silmarillion ends with this prophecy (although in some late revision Tolkien wrote an "X" across two paragraphs of it, the ones about the "gods growing young" in the light of the revitalized trees). The reason it does not appear in the published Silmarillion is a purely editorial decision on Christopher Tolkien's part (albeit one with a very good reason). It seems almost certain that JRRT had rejected the Prophecy, but he never actually went back to the Silmarillion text and explicitly crossed it out.

[edit] Original Research

Is there an exception from Wikipedia:No original research for plot summaries? If not, shouldn't there be one?

[edit] Why?

Why does it seem certain? This thing doesn't have any references.

You could most definitely use Unfinished Tales as a reference but I would prefer someone with greater knowledge of Tolkien's work than myself to add these in. Furthermore there may be references in other works by Christopher Tolkien which I have not read. Hydraton31 11:41, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

The phrasing in "The text" section above suggests to me that whoever wrote it was familiar with some Usenet and internet debates on this subject. As such I'd speculate that they based the 'almost certain' rejection of the Prophecy on Tolkien's 1958 version of Valaquenta stating that the Dooms of Mandos do not foretell whether the Marring of Arda would be corrected. Christopher Tolkien excluded the prophecy from The Silmarillion on this basis. However, he then noted in the HoME series that he later found references to the prophecy and even a new version of it which were written after the sole passage he had taken to mean that the prophecy was removed. That one line suggests that Tolkien considered removing the prophecy of the Last Battle, but it is contradicted by later texts and there is no indication that he ever considered removing the Last Battle itself... just the Valar's foreknowledge of it. The best references for the late history of this are in "Morgoth's Ring", "The War of the Jewels", and "The People's of Middle-earth". --CBDunkerson 12:20, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

The text says Ar Pharazon and his Numenoreans will fight on the Valar's side... I don't know why, I always thought the text refered to them as joining forces with Morgoth's side at that battle, seeing how they ended up where they are.

[edit] Beren never was mentioned in the Last Battle. Not canonical facts presented as extant prophecies.

Given this removal of the prophecy Christopher apparently assumed that the Dagor Dagorath had been removed as well. He later noted his surprise at finding references to it and a new version (in which Beren also returns from death for the final battle) written after the Valaquenta pass

[1]

Many fallen enemies shall return to fight on Morgoth's side as well. Sauron, whose ruined spirit fled to the Void after the destruction of the Ring, will be present at Dagor Dagorath. It is said that all types of Morgoth's creations will return, and that orcs, trolls, dragons, and other fearsome creatures will return. It is presumed that the remaining one or two Balrogs shall fight for him, and it is a disputed fact whether or not Morgoth's slain champions (such as the Nazgûl, Ancalagon the Black, Glaurung, and Gothmog, Chieftain of the Balrogs) will return as do Beren and Túrin and perhaps Scatha, Smaug, and Durin's Bane. Gandalf at least believes that the Witch-king of Angmar and the others of the Nazgûl shall not die but be thrown into the Void with Sauron at the destruction of the One Ring (The Return of the King, "The Siege of Gondor"). This suggests that if Sauron becomes free of the Void they may also be.

I deleted the paragraph quoted above because it was full of inacuracies, original research, guesses and assumptions [without real basis in Tolkien's writings]. Compare with which is truly found in the books , whatever the version of the legend.

Sauron (contradicting the quote of Morgoth's ring), Ancalagon and Scatha brought back from the Void?? Beren resurrected a second time? The writer seemed to think that all the things that Tolkien once wrote about the Dagorath could have been canon at the same time.

There is no version of the Dagor Dagorath that mentions Beren. Not even one.

As Conrad Dunkerson has said, Tolkien, in his later writings, seemed rather interested in discarding the profecy of the Dagor Dagorath but not the event itself. There is a reference to it in one comment by Tolkien in the essay about the Istari in Unfinished Tales.There is a mention in the poem that precedes it. Tolkien (as the writer/"translator" of Elven lore, states that Manwë will descend of Taniquetil in order to confront Melkor an event that is foreshadowed in the Myths tranformed of Home X

In his last writings about Middle Earth he substituded the Profecy of the Last Battle ( Dagor Dagorath) by another profecy made by Andreth about another Last Battle, the War of the Wrath ( the end of the Elder Days). In this profecy Túrin 'd have been the destroyer of Ancalagon instead of Eärendil. The quotes with the statements of Christopher Tolkien ( made in HoME 12 'll be included in the article.

[edit] Chronological order

I'm no expert on the subject... can someone inform me: When is this event supposed to take place in relation to the other ages? Has it supposedly not occurred yet (ie., to take place at some time following present history)??

For novices like me, should a clarification of this be present in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fixbot (talk • contribs) 00:50, 26 November 2007 (UTC)