Talk:Dagmar Braun Celeste

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or if there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
Stub	This article has been rated as Stub-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
	This article is supported by the Politics and government work group.

This article has been automatically assessed as Stub-Class by WikiProject Biography because it uses a stub template. If you agree with the assessment, please remove {{WPBiography}}'s auto=yes parameter from this talk page. If you disagree with the assessment, please change it by editing the class parameter of the {{WPBiography}} template, removing {{WPBiography}}'s auto=yes parameter from this talk page, and removing the stub template from the article.

Contents 1 Wikipedia policies and guidelines 2 Argentinian Bishop Romolo Braschi and Austrian Bishop Rafael Regelsberger 3 Kathryn's Deletions 4 Expanded article

[edit] Wikipedia policies and guidelines

There are a range of Wikipedia sources that can help you out. All articles must meet WP:V. To learn how to a proper citing style, consult WP:CITE. For what kind of external links are acceptable, WP:EL is a useful set of guidelines. Good luck! GBYork 17:39, 24 August 2006 (UTC) This user was found to be a sock of Mattisse

[edit] Argentinian Bishop Romolo Braschi and Austrian Bishop Rafael Regelsberger

I think the controversies, if real, about these two should be on their own pages, if someone wants to create them, with links to them. I don't think this mention, especially without citations, belongs here. This seems to be an attempt to discredit without reference. Rosencomet 18:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kathryn's Deletions

Again, Kathryn has deleted mention of the appearances at Starwood and WinterStar by this author and Catholic priestess, with the comment "If she's notable (which is unclear, as unsourced) it's probably not for going to a Pagan gathering." What this author is notable for is, in part, is her reputation as a heretic. For instance, she is the Executive Director of the Tyrian network, "an intentional learning community founded in the year 2000 on Kelley's Island/Ohio and dedicated to Brigid, both the Goddess and the Saint." There are multiple mentions of her on such blogs as Carrie Tomko's tracking her activities (including her appearances at Starwood and WinterStar) and questioning her position as a Catholic because of them. Her most famous "heresy" was being a woman ordained as a Catholic priest. The fact that she has spoken at the most prominent Neo-Pagan festival in the country on more than one occasion is certainly part of the picture, and deserves mention. It was accompanied by a third-party citation, and the deletion of the fact does not, IMO, make the article better, merely a little less complete. Rosencomet (talk) 19:45, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Expanded article

I have expanded the article with additional material, and plan to do more. For instance, Celeste has recently been involved in campaigning against voter fraud, and I'd like that to be reflected in the article. I have also re-added the information about the Neo-Pagan events she has spoken at, along with additional material that, I hope, will put it in perspective to indicate it's notabilty for this subject. BTW, as to "undue weight", I could find no other Pagan or Neo-Pagan event that Celeste spoke at, yet she has spoken at two out of the last three Starwoods and two out of the last three WinterStars, and performed mass at two of these events. A female Catholic priest performing mass at a Neo-Pagan festival is certainly unusual, and IMO in light of the controversies easily found doing a google-search of Dagmar Celeste, notable as well. Rosencomet (talk) 20:24, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Jeff, yet again I must tell you: Your WP:COI makes you incapable of judging whether these mentions of ACE events are notable in the context of the article. I'm sorry about shouting but you have an astonishing ability to discount and ignore this factor in your editing despite being told numerous times, in RfCs, in the Arbcom decision, by admins.

Re; lack of reliable sources in the article: I want you to stop, go to the verifiable sources policy and read it, particularly this section. Please humor me. Even if you've read it, read it again. NONE of the sources currently in the article meet these standards for reliable sources. This is why the {{unreferenced}} tag (which you removed) has been on the article since Aug. 2006. You may think I'm just being hard on you but if you look through my AfD closings for example, you'll see in many of them I cite lack of WP:V for extensive periods of time as a reason for deleting articles. If you really want to improve this article, try this Google News search. It looks like there are a number of stories from substantial newspapers. You don't have to use the "pay" ones unless you're really dedicated. Do not use those "pay per story" sources unless you actually buy them and can read the whole story, not just the excerpt in the news search listing. And please, please, please take a look at WP:CITE and pay particular attention to this section. Inline citations are the preferred method of adding sources and your usual method of embedding links in the text is not recommended.

I'm sorry about all the emphasis I've used above. I sound like I'm scolding a child and talking down to you. But I keep telling you the same things over and over, repetitively pointing you to the same policy pages and yet you continue to edit and make the same mistakes again. I continue to suspect you haven't read these very few basic and necessary policy pages because you don't show the slightest indication of it in your actions. If you can't be bothered to do so after over 16 months, it may be that you'll never do so. Sadly, Pigman☿ 05:03, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

In case I wasn't clear, you should NOT be working on this article at all, as you yourself have said she's been a presenter at Starwood. If you find sources you want to add, put them here on the talk page. Include all the information: Newspaper/magazine name, date of publication, title of article, page number and a quote from the article supporting the information. You need to do this because you've seriously and consistently misrepresented sources in the past.

If you want to save this article from AfD, such sources are needed. As it stands, there is almost nothing to support the info in the article. I should immediately cut it back to meet Wikipedia's Biographies of Living People policy, but I'm sick of dealing with this right now and am willing to give you some time to do the right thing. Pigman☿ 06:23, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I specifically asked Fred Bauder to "state for the record that I am not violating the arbitration, and am not disallowed to edit articles by either speakers or entertainers simply because somewhere in their appearance history there was one or more appearance at the Starwood Festival or WinterStar Symposium, events run by an organization I am a volunteer with and neither receive payment from nor hire for. I also need a statement that there is no reason I can't edit an article about a Llewellyn author."

His reply was, "You are welcome to edit any article, including articles about associates, provided you cite reliable sources. It is best to not rely on personal knowledge."

I hope this finally settles this issue, and I can continue editing articles without the constant accusations that I am violating Wikipedia policies by doing so. I have tried to be careful about avoiding original research, properly citing sources (with a preference to third-party sources; however, Wikipedia policy clearly allows for non-third-party sources in some circumstances, such as author's official websites), and other Wikipedia policies & guidelines. In the future, I would ask that you and Kathryn limit your objections (if you must object at all) to the actual edits I do, rather than the fact that I am the one who has done them. Rosencomet (talk) 00:08, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, non-third-party sources (personal website of the subject) are allowed but not as the primary or sole source of information. If independent sources can't be found, this is an indication that the subject probably isn't suitable for a WP article. This is a foundational pillar of WP: Independent and verifiable sources. Everything I said in my comments above on 8 Jan 2008 still applies and I strongly urge you to look closely at the links I provided in the post. The sourcing on this article remains quite weak. Cheers, Pigman☿ 16:46, 21 March 2008 (UTC)