Talk:Dae Jung-sang

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[edit] "Etymology" of Qiqi Zhongxiang and relationship with Dae Jung-sang

A korean source quotes that the Sinicized 乞乞 of the autochtone word "Qiqi" means "Great" (Hangul :대 Hanja/Hanzi :大)

한자 표시의 ‘걸걸(乞乞)’은 그 훈(訓)이 아니라, 그 발음을 봐야 한다.
(...)
대(大)[da, 돋은]= [qiqi, 치치](乞乞)= ‘첫 (솟은)’이어야 한다.

(...)
더구나 ‘걸걸(乞乞)’ 말갈족 성씨이고, ‘대(大)’는 조선족 성씨이다

Conclusion :
Qiqi Zhongxiang also know as Dae Jung-sang are both correct because the first one is the Chinese pronouciation of the word Qiqi written in the Chinese Old records in Classical Chinese while the second one prouve us that the autochtone language do not belong to Chinese language family.

Da Zhongxiang is just a sinicized word
and Geolgeol is not really considered as a Korean name.

Sources :
(Korean) http://www.arirang-world.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t12305.html
(Korean) http://www.sungyoung.net/story/daijoyoung.html
Whlee 18:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

What is the original language with the word "乞乞", Tangus or Mohe or Bohai? What do you mean by 乞乞 is a sinicized word? I think we can say it is written in Chinese character "乞乞", but I don't think we can say 乞乞 is sinicized, or 치치 is koreanized. Is Qiqi then an anglicized word? Sounds really strange. It is clearer to say 乞乞 is in "Chinese" instead of "Sinicized".
Wiki Pokemon 23:50, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I think it is proper to say that 乞乞 is a translation by pronunciation, and 大 is a translation by meaning. The "Canonical Book of the Tang Dynasty" and the "Second Canonical Book of the Tang Dynasty" (唐书 and 新唐书) happened to use the translation by pronunciation 乞乞. But later the "Canonical History of the Jurchen Jin Dynasty" and the "Canonical History of the Song Dynasty" (金史 and 宋史) switched to the translation by meaning 大. Actually 大 is more sinicized, 乞乞 is only the "onomatopoeia" for the original Mohe language pronunciation.--Jiejunkong 04:23, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree, that's what I think too. I believe sinicize generally means to change by adopting things which are already considered Chinese. But I think it can also mean something which originally is not Chinese, but has come to be considered Chinese because it has been adopted generally by Chinese. 乞乞 is originally not Chinese, and it has not become part of Chinese usage, therefore saying 乞乞 is sinicized is not accurate. It is accurate to say 大 is the sinicized word of 乞乞. I think in this case 乞乞 is a Chinese word used by the Chinese, and invented through onomatopoeia"zation" process for the Mohe word which means "great" and sounds like "qiqi". The article should use either Chinese or Hanzi (even Mohe) to describe 乞乞, not sinicized. If Mohe also actually used 乞乞 in their written documents, then we can also say that 乞乞 is Mohe.
Wiki Pokemon 01:25, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "乞乞" was probably Old Korean or at least cognate with the Korean word.

The word “乞乞” may have been read either in goguryeonized reading or in Middle Chinese reading for Hanzi.

Let’s look at the Goguryeo reading for Hanzi. The personal name of the King Micheon of Goguryeo was 乙弗 (a transcription into Hanzi) or 乙弗利 (a variant transcription into Hanzi). The variation of the personal name of the Goguryeo king shows that the consonant-final sound of the character “弗” was not “T” but “L or R”. This is one of the some examples which proves that Sino-Korean reading is close to Goguryeo reading for Hanzi. For reference, “乞乞” in Sino-Korean pronunciation is [kʌlkʌl]

So, I postulate that Goguryeo reading for the character “乞” was pronounced [k+(vowel)+l]. As for the Middle Chinese reading, considering the diverse reconstructions of the reading by linguists, I postulate that the Middle Chinese pronunciation for it was [k+(vowel)+t].

And the Korean native reading for “大” is exactly [kʰɯl]. Possibly [k+(vowel)+l] or [k+(vowel)+t] was Old Korean or at least cognate with the Korean word. To the contrary, Manchu word for “大” is [amba], hardly to imagine to be cognate with above mentioned reading. After having become the royal family of Balhae, the family of Dae Jo-yeong felt the need to create a surname which could represent their dynasty diplomatically to the neighboring countries. It is easy to imagine that their native surname meaning “great” was turned into “大” which was equivalent in meaning to “乞”

It could be a good example to study how native Korean surnames have changed into Chinese-like surnames.
Jagello (talk) 09:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Etymology" of Qisi (Piyu)

Qisi 乞四 is a Mohe/Malgal noble name which derived into a Jurchen name Chi-tzan (赤盞) and a Hungarian name Csiszar. Sources :

According to volume 113 of the "Canonical history of the Jurchen Jin Dynasty" (金史), in 1232，General 赤盏合喜 (Chizhan Hexi) guarded Kaifeng and used explosives similar to nowadays grenade to defend against Mongol's attack (「其守城之具有火炮名『震天雷』者，铁礶盛药，以火点之，炮起火发，其声如雷，闻百里外，所爇围半亩之上，火点著甲铁皆透」。). The general 赤盏合喜's ancestral line is unknown, but very likely from this Qisi family.--Jiejunkong 04:16, 2 August 2007 (UTC)