Talk:Dōbutsu no Mori (film)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Dōbutsu no Mori (film) → Animal Forest (film) — This has a commonly used English name (one that's been provided by Nintendo), and per WP:ENGLISH transliterations should only be used if a commonly used English name is lacking. Further, this article follows Animal Forest which already decided to use a verified translation instead of transliteration. Miss Mondegreen | Talk   08:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

[edit] Survey - in support of the move

1. Support - I obviously (!) support the move I proposed. The number of redirects to the article shows that this is the improper name for this--people don't search for the transliteration. I know the move to this page was done on the grounds that no movie called "Animal Crossing" or "Animal Forest" was released, but that's not how entries are supposed to be titled (per WP:ENGLISH) on English Wikipedia. There has also been a bizarre effort to avoid using English in this article and it hurts the article. You should never avoid using the language that you're attempting to communicate to someone in, and that's what's happened here. I shouldn't have to scroll over a link to see what it goes to to know what you mean. Miss Mondegreen | Talk   08:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
2. Support, per nom. We also refer to Spirited Away, not Sen to Chihiro no Kamikakushi. - Cyrus XIII 12:24, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

   We refer to it as Spirited Away because that is the official English title for the movie. We do not call this Animal Forest because that's not the official title anywhere. The official title is ONLY Dobutsu no Mori. Spirited Away v. this is a terrible example. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:32, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey - in opposition to the move

1. A Link to the Past (talk) 15:11, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

   From the instructions above:

   "Add # '''Support''' or # '''Oppose''' on a new line. . . . Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

   Also, in re your edit summary--since the changes I thought should be made to the article went with this move and are not minor changes--this would change the names used in the article from transliterated Japanese to English translations of Japanese titles and since the previous version had found consensus--at least enough that the current version wasn't controversial and these edits weren't reverted, I thought that I would bring up the changes instead of hitting people over the head with WP:ENGLISH. Which seems to have been a good idea because from what little I can understand of your "reply" to the survey--you're against using translations and want to use transliterations instead. Miss Mondegreen | Talk   23:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

   Yes, I am against 100% unofficial fan translations. - A Link to the Past (talk) 23:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

   First, even if this was an unofficial fan translation, it's clearly known by this name and Wiki guidelines are pretty clear on what to do in this scenario.

   Second, it's NOT an unofficial fan translation, something I already mentioned clearly. You read my comments below well enough to see that I thought certain changes should be made to the article but missed where I mentioned that it was a translation provided by Nintendo--the Animal Forest article has the translation properly sourced and in fact I quoted the first line of the article and left the little footnote number.

   Animal Forest is a direct translation of the Japanese, one Nintendo choose and copyrighted (they could have choosen to translate the game as Animal Woods--Wario no Mori translated to Wario's Woods). Latter, Nintendo decided to use a different name for the English language release, a name that is not a translation of the Japanese.

   Nintendo has copyrighted two names in English (as far as I know, it's only two) associated with this game--Animal Crossing and Animal Forest. The former is the official name for the games released in English and is used to refer to those specific games and the series as a whole.

   The latter, the official translation of the Japanese is used to refer to the games released in Japanese when speaking in English. When speaking in Japanese, I presume that the official title which is Japanese, is used.

   Anyway, we have a source, we have a link to Nintendo's translation of it with their nice little copyright symbol. This should be enough, especially as WP:ENGLISH just wants a known English name. Miss Mondegreen | Talk   07:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

   So why not go with Animal Crossing? Animal Crossing versus Animal Forest, Animal Crossing comes out as being xinfinity more well-known by English readers than Animal Forest. Anyway, that's a guideline, not a policy. The idea of basically doing a fan translation (since Nintendo has never translated the title yet) does not sit well with me. - A Link to the Past (talk) 15:52, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

   And if you didn't already notice, I DID discuss my reasoning. In the discussion section. Where discussion belongs. - A Link to the Past (talk) 15:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

   Since you apparantly can't read what I wrote or go to the Animal Forest page and look at the source yourself, here--is that good enough, Nintendo translated it?

   And I already answered why not AC. Animal Forest is a translation--it had been going to be used for english games. It wasn't, a new name was. There is a difference in the names between the Japanese games and the English games. If we call it Animal Crossing, we're calling it by a name that isn't attributed to the game at all--we're calling it by a name that's attributed a different version of the game, whereas Animal Forest is attributed to it, it's a direct translation and it came from Nintendo. The game was released in China and it's name there is also a direct translation on Animal Forest (which btw means the Animal Forest article and several others need some serious work), but bottom line, Animal Forest is the translation for the Japanese. Animal Crossing is something else. Animal Crossing is a more known name, so I wouldn't object to Animal Crossing (movie) redirecting here--but as the name itself--that's technically inaccurate. Miss Mondegreen | Talk   17:32, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

   I didn't realize that the movie and the GCN game are the same games. - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:34, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

   ????????Miss Mondegreen | Talk   19:03, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

   The GameCube game was once known as Animal Forest. The movie never was. If it is released here, it will never have any association with Animal Forest besides having a Japanese name which translates to Animal Forest. - A Link to the Past (talk) 19:30, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

   No--Nintendo provided a translation for "Dōbutsu no Mori". The translation was "Animal Forest"--a name they hold trademark for. You don't need a press release informing you of that every time Nintendo releases something called "Dōbutsu no Mori". This holds true for all games and films released by Nintendo with the name "Dōbutsu no Mori". If Nintendo wants to release shaving cream called "Dōbutsu no Mori", we'll still know what translation to use, and we can write an article called Animal Forest (shaving cream). WP:English says to use English instead of transliteration if it exists, and it does. Miss Mondegreen | Talk   20:04, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

   That would work in your favor if I agreed with the guideline. But I don't. To assume that any entity at Nintendo would use it is original research and I won't encourage that. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:07, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

   "To assume that any entity at Nintendo would use it?" what on earth do you mean by that? Miss Mondegreen | Talk   20:15, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

   Nintendo has never once said that the English title of this movie could be Animal Forest. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:34, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

2. Commonly used where? The English-language commentary on this film is all but non-existant. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:18, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

   Commonly used to refer to the series--commonly used as a translation for "Dōbutsu no Mori"--it is the only translation for "Dōbutsu no Mori", Nintendo has said that it's the official translation and holds a trademark for it. WP:English comes in in that it's actually come into the culture--Animal Crossing is used to refer to the english games and Animal Forest to the Japanese games. This is somewhat more complicated here--people often refer to it as "oh that Animal Crossing film" or "that Animal Forest film"--depending on their level of knowledge, but they don't know it as "the Dōbutsu no Mori film"--the transliteration is a name that isn't as commonly known. Per WP:English, this could be called Animal Crossing (film), but I'm not comfortable with that as Animal Crossing is incorrect and doesn't have a direct correlation. Animal Forest on the otherhand fits WP:English guidelines and is a translation trademarked by Nintendo. I personally think that "Dōbutsu no Mori" is the worst case scenario in terms of naming this article--people will almost always get to it by way of redirect, it causes problems in terms of the infobox (which its not currently on), and I agree with WP:English in terms of only using a transliteration if there's no viable English title, and there is here. Miss Mondegreen | Talk   08:47, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

3. Oppose. The only official release of this film is under "Dōbutsu no Mori". It was never released as "Animal Forest", nor is this specific film ever referred to as that in official sources. ' 01:15, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Hey everyone, I'm going to start everyone off with a little longer explanation of why I put this move up. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), says that:

If there is no commonly used English name, use an accepted transliteration of the name in the original language.

The commonly used English name for the Japanese games is "Animal Forest", a translation provided by Nintendo which Nintendo had intended to use for the English language versions of the game. Ultimately the English language version of the game was released as "Animal Crossing" and now the Japanese versions are know as "Animal Forest" and the English version are known as "Animal Crossing."

The (Animal Forest) article deals with this well in the first line, and this article should do the same:

"Dōbutsu no Mori, known under the translated title Animal Forest [1], is a..."

The entire article, not just the name doesn't seems to ignore that this is on English Wikipedia and ignores all of the conventions that go with that. The article refers to the series as the Dōbutsu no Mori video games, which is bad. The article makes no mention of the English translation or of the English series of games (Animal Crossing, not Dōbutsu no Mori), and the series as a whole is generally referred to (in English) and is referred to on Wikipedia as the Animal Crossing games (this including both the Forest and the Crossing games, i.e. the Japanese and the English versions). 'This not only ignores common sense and WP:ENGLISH protocols, but it ignores all of the other articles for Animal Crossing.

I think that it's important that the Japanese games and movies be distinguished, but this is going about this the wrong way. It not only goes against wiki guidelines, but it really hurts the article. Miss Mondegreen | Talk   08:27, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

No thank you, I'm not going to use a fan translation (which, by the way, it is - Nintendo has never used the term Animal Forest to describe the series in any way, shape, or form). - A Link to the Past (talk) 15:13, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.