Talk:Cyrus the Great

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[edit] Um... His CHARTER OF FREE RIGHTS???

I was reading, and i saw that there was hardly any mention of his charter of free rights. Now, shouldn't there be some kind of "goog" expansion into this? This was the first occurence of something like this, as to not take slaves, let the invaded country keep its own religion and ways, and even king. They payed the workers from teh captured countries. But its mention hardly does the fact justice. I just believe there should be a better explanation and maybe even a translation of the text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pejmany (talk • contribs) 00:59, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "The largest nation the world had yet seen" is potentially misleading.

The end of the first paragraph claims that "The empire expanded under his rule, eventually conquering most of Southwest Asia, much of Central Asia, and up to the Indus River, to create the largest nation the world had yet seen" and a source is cited. http://www.livius.org/ct-cz/cyrus_I/cyrus.html . However, this statement has two issues:

1. The cited source makes no such claim. A broad claim like this needs a strong citation, as this kind of superlative language ("the biggest", "one of the most..." etc) is used flippantly around here and ultimately makes these articles devoid of meaning. I'm not saying the Persian empire wasn't the largest the world had yet seen, but that there has to be a valid source for this claim. The source does back up the statement about the regions that were conquered, but it makes no comment about the overall size of the resulting empire.

2. It is a stretch to call the ancient Persia empire a "nation." The nation itself would've been where Cyrus came from, but I think most people would agree that conquered territories aren't instantly assimilated into the "nation." Nation has more to do with cultural and linguistic regions than political boundaries.

Just some thoughts- I'm not going to change anything because I've never edited this page before and don't want to just jump in... --Canjecricketer 11:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Not sure why, but someone moved that source there. A while back it was sourcing something else in the lead. Regardless, I've changed "nation" to "state" and I've attributed a proper source. 02:21, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Can't see Old Persian text

I can't see the Old Persian text, just "??????". Anyone else have this problem? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.41.217.24 (talk • contribs) 09:20, June 26, 2007.

That's because operating system developers are jerks. Unicode has, since version 3.0 (that was 8 years ago), supported Old Persian as well as many other historic languages. However, no operating system that I know of ships with a font to actually RENDER those glyphs. So, while practically any modern OS has the ability to display the characters -- it simply cannot, because it has no fonts with those glyphs. In short, you must manually download a font with Old Persian glyphs in it. Roozbeh was kind enough to share a link to download such a font: http://persian.ir/images/7/70/Xerxes.ttf. Install it (ie. for Windows, put it in your Windows/Fonts/ directory) and your browser will automatically start rendering the text properly. ♠ SG →Talk 14:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, it worked after also trying code2001 from :http://got.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Gothic_Unicode_Fonts , in the end I don't know which it was that one worked.
I've seen 'unusual character' warnings on other articles. Can we get one here that will tell users what to do? --Rindis (talk) 18:03, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cyrus NAMED in Biblical prophecy

Cyrus read himself mentioned, by name, in the Bible(Isaiah 45:1-3) as conquering the Babylonian kingdom. And then did so!

[edit] Pasargadae

[1] : I disagree, this is certainly relevant. Amizzoni 23:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Why does it matter what the capital was? This is an article about the ruler, not the capital of the empire he presided over. Saying "Pasargadae was its capital" is inaccurate as well, because it was only the capital from at most 546 onwards, and even then, it was an incomplete city. It only remained as capital for a few decades, until Persepolis was built. ♠ SG →Talk 00:03, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Articles about rulers usually deal not only with them in a strict sense, but with their rule as well. Specially in the case of ancient rulers, it is difficult to separate what he do "as a person" and what he do as a ruler. I mean that where to place a capital city is a matter of government, that is, a kind of thing we can expect to find in an article about a ruler. Even more if Cyrus was the one who built it. And doing a quick web search, I see that people are not much reluctant to call it Cyrus' capital or Cyrus' residence [2] [3] . Amizzoni 23:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
You are comparing chapter 20 of a book to the lead of an encyclopedia entry. It absolutely deserves mention that he commissioned Pasargadae (and possibly Persepolis) to be built during his lifetime, and that Pasargadae, while under construction, became the capital of his new empire some time after his reign began. However, not in the lead. It seems to me that we're just trying to pack too much information into the introduction, whereas details like this could be used to expand the rest of the article. ♠ SG →Talk 06:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
I provisionally added the Pasargadae allusion to the Dynastic History section. A better place would be a section regarding Cyrus building activities or something like that, but I think it's ok where it is for now. I also made some corrections and additions in the same section. Amizzoni 20:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
That's actually a good idea. He should have built or at least commissioned much of the structures from the beginning of the empire, like Pasargadae and the Second Temple. We should make a list here on the talk page with various things Cyrus is reputed to have built from all the sources we can find, then we can turn the list into prose and add it to the article. ♠ SG →Talk 21:44, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

That sounds fine. At this moment I remember:

  • Pasargadae
  • restoration of temples in Babylonia, Elam and Assyria recorded in the Cyrus Cylinder
  • restoration of fortifications recorded in the Cyrus Cylinder and sources cited in the French article by G. Tolini we use in one of our notes

Amizzoni 22:00, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Didn't have the time to read the entire article, but the term Bozorg or Bozurg actually refers to an elderly person of acclaim, not necessarily translates to 'great' as in english connotation. But then I am not an expert, so leave this here for further research. Unslung 12:09, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, in actual Farsi, and Iran, we call him Kabir, same for Alexander, so that's how Great is translated.Pejmany (talk) 00:53, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Death edits

"Vengeance" was not a referenced motive by historians for Cyrus' attack against the Massagetae. It was expansionism typical of his career. Vengeance was, however, a major motive for Tomyris' retaliation against Cyrus.

The site popularly known as the tomb of Cyrus is not definitively accepted as the actual site where he was interred, and indication of that is now given.

The term "regnal years" regarding cuneiform needs somekind of explanation, reference, or wikilink on the subject. As it stood, it was a term with no context and made little apparent sense by itself.

The death section uses numbers 26 and 27 as citations. I have removed statements which are not supported by those citations or the Tomyris article, with the exception of 26 and its statement about Croesius' advice. The source doesn't illustrate the claim that Croesius advised Cyrus to advance into the territory of the Massagetae. It states the opposite--that Cyrus was advised by Croesius against entering their territory and did so anyway, and I have re-written that statement to accurately reflect what the source does mention of it, instead of removing it.

I added a bit more detail about the battles with the Massagetae. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.58.152.55 (talk) 02:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Classical period

The use of the term Classical period is a bit confusing. Presumably, this refers to the Classical period of Greek history, which from the outset is a somewhat chauvinist framework within which to discuss Persian history. Moreover, it is incorrect to say that Cyrus was active in the Classical period, since the sixth century is traditionally regarded by Greek historians as a part of the Archaic period (ending with the invasion of Greece conducted by Xerxes in 480/479). 71.62.13.176 05:24, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

That's right. I believe I've already pointed out this. Amizzoni (talk) 21:20, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] korosh's name origin

as the article says the name of korosh probably was originated from the words of "kor" + "rosh" or "rash" which both of them originated from kurdish or ancient median since korosh's mother was median. "kor" in kurdish means "boy" or "son" and "rash" means "black" or "dark". maybe korosh had got dark skin.--Awyer (talk) 11:06, 16 December 2007 (UTC)Awyer

Another example of false etymology.Heja Helweda (talk) 01:57, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Now that Awyer presented his own etymolgy of the name, I suggest him a similar folk hypothesis!: maybe the word origiantes from Kur+rozh which in Kurdish means Son of Sun! A name quite fitting a nobleman/king, especially in accordance with Iranian mythology regarding their respect for sun and light. :)) Sharishirin (talk) 15:26, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


I did some research and found that the name Kurush may actually be connected with the word kur (son/boy) which is from old Iranic root of kur (to be born). Don't you think this should be reflcted in the article? Sharishirin (talk) 19:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it should, and it would be great if you can add it with its reference in the "name" section. The Encyclopaedia Iranica entry mentions the hypothesis, but its author rejects it.Amizzoni (talk) 18:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Source by Suren-Pahlav

This source regarding family background of Cyrus is from an unreliable personal website [4]. The norm is to refer to reliable academic sources.Heja Helweda (talk) 01:55, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Queen Esther?

The text treats Queen Esther as a historical person, rather than the heroine of romantic fiction. Not many biblical scholars take the Book of Esther as history! Jim Lacey (talk) 19:47, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


Ariobarza talk says that this is a excerpt from the article Basileus which is a copy pasted here, and says...

Use of Basileus in Classical Times

In classical times, almost all states had abolished the hereditary royal office in favor of democratic or oligarchic rule: Some exceptions exist: namely the two hereditary Kings of Sparta (who served as joint commanders of the army, and were also called arkhagetai), the Kings of Macedon and of the Molossians in Epirus, various kings of "barbaric" (i.e. non-Greek) tribes in Thrace and Illyria, as well as the Achaemenid kings of Persia. The Persian king was also referred to as Megas Basileus (Great King) or Basileus Basileōn, a translation of the Persian title Šāhanšāh ("King of Kings"), or simply "the king".

[edit] GA Sweeps

This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there are many issues that need to be addressed.

  • In short, this article has serious problems. Parts, like legacy etc. are well sourced while others, like this whole dam business seem to be copyright violations from some website, so badly have they been incorporated. Much of the article is poorly written. In the legacy section for example, which is one of the best parts of the article, Thomas Jefferson is brought up twice in two seperate paragraphs which make the same comment. In order for this to remain a GA, I will need to see a real commitment from somebody to deal with these problems, beginning by exorcising this strange section on the dam and replacing it with reasonable and sourced prose. If anyone is willing please indicate below and I will work with you to straighten out the problems.
  • The biography section needs close attention because at the moment it is just a collection of short, frequently unconnected paragraphs, and in places lacks vital sourcing.
  • Find an image to go in the infobox.

I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made and issues are being addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GAR). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions, and many thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this article thus far. Regards, Jackyd101 (talk) 20:30, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WAIT!

Hi, I want to say that one day soon I will revamp this article to be so cool it will get an A+! But I am working on his battles currently so someone now, only now has to do these things you want them to do, which I have taken the liberty of doing myself because I care, but, also I want you to know that I put a lead into to go before hand in the part about the Tedd Koppel part talking about Cyrus the Great, which is the part that mentions Thomas Jefferson, in a qoute of course. I do not know how to make big light blue quotation marks, so sorry, I'm new here, been doing other things. But I got the other thing done, I put a reference to an eternal link about the save Pasargadae from Sivand Dam thing. Also I'm still looking for a decent picture of Cyrus the Great. So I did 2 of 3 things, and I want you to send your pleading message to all those guys intrested in Cyrus, so the pros can know about this articles mishaps, also I will one day soon put some information pertaining to the views of Ctesias, and Nicolas, Xenophon, which have the right to be heard, I mean their accounts of Cyrus that are very similar to Herodotus's versions, so they have some truth to it. So I'm planning to make major well referenced from academic sources article that will make Wikipedia's administraters happy, so thanks for reading this long statement, be good, goodbye.--Ariobarza (talk) 10:54, 30 March 2008 (UTC)Ariobarza talk

I appreciate the message. Don't worry, there is no rush to delist, and if it does happen it is easy to restore GA status once the problems have been addressed. Glad to see there is attention here.--Jackyd101 (talk) 13:54, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Right, I apologise for not coming back to this for two months, but real life intervened. The article has improved, and although it would benefit from better and more thorough sourcing as well as a substantial copyedit, I will pass this as a GA once the section on Cyrus's tomb is sorted out. This section is poorly written and has raw URLS, some actually written out in the text! When this is cleaned up drop a line here and I will reassess. If nothing is done in seven days then I will delist this article. Regards --Jackyd101 (talk) 12:04, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, no work in the last week on the tomb section. This article is no longer a GA.--Jackyd101 (talk) 14:41, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] his tomb

heard that it is being destroyed by the iranian government, we have to highlight it as a separate piece in the site., —Preceding unsigned comment added by GrecoPersian (talk • contribs) 13:08, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] English pronunciation

How do you pronunce the English name "Cyrus"? I'm not living in an English-speaking country and I'd like to know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.132.227.129 (talk) 10:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

  • It is pronounced SIGH-russ (or SY-russ, if that is clearer. Raymondwinn (talk) 10:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Thanks. I've lately heard KEI-rush. I wonder how _that_ is spelled. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.139.107.101 (talk) 06:01, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Titles

  • Shahenshah of Persia: OK
  • Emperor of Media: The imperial status of Media is disputed among scholars, so it would be better to say "King of Media" instead. It is important to take into account that the word King doesn't imply that the individual ruled over a small territory, it is used to indicate that he was a sole ruler; by this way, all emperors were kings, so the people who consider Media as an Empire accept that its emperor was King of Media. Compare the usage of Emperor of Media (4) with the usage of King of Media (2,100).
  • Basileus of Lydia: Cyrus conquered Lydia, but, AFAIK, there is no evidence that he used any title relating to Lydia. It is a dubious and unreferenced statement, so I think we should simply remove it.
  • King of Neo-Babylonia: Such title doesn't exist, his title was "King of Babylonia". We shouldn't make up titles.
  • Cyrus was also king of Anshan. It is in fact his most attested title.Amizzoni (talk) 03:41, 13 June 2008 (UTC)