Talk:Cybernetics

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Here are some tasks you can do:


    • expand the discriptions of the nature of cybernetics. See Game theory for a good example of what a nexus page like this one can be.
      • how the theories apply to both biological and artifical entities
      • Modern cybernetic research
      • Overviews of the various aspects of the subfields and their "big picture" relevance
    • Verify the various dates in the history section, as well as the history itself. Factually it seems accurate, but the precise details need verifying.
    • Other- add any other tasks you think need to be added to this page. This article can be a featured article after some work.
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    1: 2005 - 2006


    Contents

    [edit] Which book was first published in France?

    The article says that it was France "... where Wiener's book was first published." This can hardly be true.

    Believe it or not, it was France where the English speaking Wiener's book was published. It was so revolutionary that only there could he find a publisher.--Scorpion451 21:10, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] "Unbeknownst"? How do we know?

    "The word cybernetics ('cybernétique') had, unbeknownst to Wiener..."

    Without external verification that he wasn't knowledgable of this earlier usage, chances are equal that he did actually note it and chose to disregard it. The line makes the article more interesting, so I'll just append "ostensibly" to it. If one of the sources states it explicitly somewhere, just change it back. ~Anon

    [edit] Contribution to cybernetics

    This section is moved here from the Cybernetics ToDo template

    by Jacques angibeaud 8/21/07 Books speaking of systemics and cybernetics show these words are associated. 1) A system well known by a human is his PERSON, healthy in his body and in his spirit. For living several decades, millions actions must be done by a human. His behaviour must be cybernetic. This word designates the process that each human must do, must carry out again and again, to live again.

    A proof is a human conducting his vehicule. Why is he in his vehicule? why at this X point? where does he come from? where he is going to? Several questions can be asked.

    At a higher level of abstraction, new questions for a human : what can I do on the earth? why am I here? to do what? Am I useful? ... 2) Previous questions go to an answer. Each human has his feet on the earth.What the consequence of action: lift up ? The earth has a (constant) cinetic moment, equal to inertial moment multiplied by angular rotational speed. 'lift up' human action increases inertial moment of the earth. The consequence is rotational speed decreases. The proof is given by International Bureau of Time, which decreases the second of one millisecond each eleven or twelve months.It is necessary for sun zenith at midday. At another abstraction level, the human lift up has the consequence that the earth volume increases. It means : the density of the earth decreases. Birds in the sky, aircrafts,... have the same consequence. Human activity has made Stone henge, Carnac, pyramids, temples, ...

    This phenomenon is general in the universe. A proof is the sun looses fifty millions tons (mass) per second. This energy (E=mc2) scatters elsewhere in the universe. This is called ENTROPY. A notion, associated at cybernetics, is NEGUENTROPY. This word means negative entropy. It designates an anti-entropic processus. This neguentropic notion has been invented by Paul Idatte in 1960.

    The proof is given by the life on the earth, photosynthesis transforms in mater, three percents of sun energy received by vegetation.

    Conclusion: a system which executes a cybernetic processus, is neguentropic. The name of this specific system is CYBER. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.194.195.84 (talk) 21:14, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Citations

    There are practically no citations in this article. There definitely need to be citations for all that information. Dreamer.redeemer 06:16, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Ramanujan

    Can some one clarify Ramanujuan's contribution?--Nick Green 20:23, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

    I guess you have problems with the foloowing sentence:
    Another modern name that can be added to the list of contributors to the field of Cybernetics is that of Srinivasa Ramanujan, a brilliant Indian mathematician.
    I agree that this remark is kind of outplaced so I removed it for the moment. If someone else could explain this, it can be placed back again. - Mdd 21:03, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
    Thanks Mdd. Maybe some Number Theory expert can make the case for putting it back.--Nick Green 23:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Cyberneticist or Cybernetician?

    What is the preferred term for a practitioner of cybernetics? The category is Category:Cyberneticists, but the Template:Cybernetics calls them cyberneticians. --RichardVeryard 14:50, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

    This is tricky. Pask (described as a genius and the cybernetician's cybernetician by H von Foerster also a cybernetician and architect of the Biological Computer Laboratory) preferred the term cybernetist attributing it to Professor Peter B. Fellgett FRS an honorary fellow of the Cybernetics Society that awards a professional qualification in cybernetics (MCybS and FCybS). He felt it more euphonious than cyberneticist. This must be regarded with some seriousness as those using cybernetician (most) see the comparison of physicist and physician as defining. Pask started out basing his cybernetics in cognition (suggesting cybernetician) but his information flows in "any medium" shifted his self description into cybernetist (in his Interactions of Actors ms- see Gordon Pask Papers) but never cyberneticist. Others should express their view. Cybernist has 130 occurrences on Google today, cyberneticist 21,800 and cybernetician 22,800. Cybernetist scores 10 hits. Maybe a linguist could comment. --Nick Green 23:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
    I also found the same google rates. This is maybe why I'm not so sure that we need to use one term. Why not use both? - Mdd 23:47, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
    I certainly don't propose to go through the whole of Wikipedia standardizing on one term rather than the other. But I think the template and the category should use the same term, because using two different terms is untidy and creates unnecessary confusion. (An encyclopedia is not written for people who already know whether two terms are exactly or nearly equivalent.) The comparison with physicist and physician is not really relevant, because these are entirely different professions (nowadays). --RichardVeryard 14:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
    I agree. What do you think we should use? - Mdd 14:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
    I have no preference. --RichardVeryard 14:49, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
    Look up cyberneticist in
    Wiktionary, the free dictionary.
    I have noticed that there is a Wiktionary article on cyberneticist - Mdd 23:36, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject Cybernetics and Portal:Cybernetics

    This item is copied from User talk:Nick Green

    The idea is to start a Wikipedia:WikiProject Cybernetics and/or a Portal:Cybernetics. Both have a different aim:

    • a WikiProject is a kind of cooperation between editors to improve the represention in Wikipedia of a specific field (Cybernetics) and to initiate and coordinate further innovations.
    • a Portal is main pages for specific topics or areas; a kind of homepage; a general representation of the field; a introduction of the existing articles, facts, images, persons in the field and new developments.

    Some general information can be found on (or look at some examples)

    Now WikiProjects can fulfill multiple tasks (it can start with the first).

    1. Platform to discuss, initiate, coordinate, control, etc.
    2. Assessment
    3. Peer Review
    4. Collaboration
    5. Portal(s)

    Now it that some hours till days to initiate it, but it can take for ever to run it. After a while WikiProjects and Portals can become inactive (and even can get deleted). And last but not least it takes some people and good will to initiate and run it.

    So far for the general introductions? Any questions? Ideas? - Mdd 19:00, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

    There is great deal already on Cybernetics on Wiki click on Category:Cybernetics and at the foot of the article (click article tab) and e.g sub Category:Cyberneticists in that page. Many topics need drawing in as in Bateson's remark about Alfred Wallace "centrifugal governor" drawing in evolution (and any works others may have published on this, of course). Many need better references, more contemporary references and style clean ups plus new articles. BUT if we are to have a cybernetics portal etc we ought to consider an article on Systems from a cybernetic perspective. The emphasis on information flows rather than any old input/output, for example. The recent debate at CYBCOM hints at great riches. So now let's participate. I suggest not too much effort. Contribute only if you really know, use discussion pages for debate. Lists of topics not covered yet, a vision of structure all needed. Your personal page keeps track of your contributions and changes to those pages in your watchlist. Criticism is encouraged within articles and it is needed. Look at Cloud feedback for example. Very important we might be able to help here, or is it just more physical chemistry needed? References are vital and clear short points with examples. Everything is aimed at the general reader but if you get technical make sure there's a simple article to support you. Remember Frank George. At the drop of a hat he would write on the Cybernetics of... or Cybernetics and... Isn't it time for us to emulate that with our modern insights?--Nick Green 00:38, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

    Thanks, you are right. There are lot of article about cybernetics in Wikipedia allready. There are also al lot of existing WikiProjects and Portals. For example:

    Here listed are only the most related WikiProjects and Portals (though they are not all active). At the moment Cybernetics is within the scope of the WikiProject Systems. So the real question, I guess, is, why go through all that trouble? - Mdd 15:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Why not?

    I can think of some arguments why ...

    • Cybernetics is a relatively autonomous paradigm in society and science, interesting both from a historical and a contemporary perspective.
    • Quality inprovement and quality control is needed
    • Wikipedia becomes more complex and requirers more skills
    • Articles are presentations, WikiProject organization and a Portal representation.
    • A starting point for communication, innovation and building relations.

    What fascinates me the most is that Wikipedia itselve is becoming the first place for all people, young and old, to get acquinted and to learn about things out of the ordinary. And at the moment there is still a lot to learn about improving this. - Mdd 22:27, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] A new introduction

    I created the following new introdution of this article, inspired on the german Wikipedia:

    Cybernetics is the intedisciplinairy study of the structure of complex systems, especially the communication processes, control mechanisme and feedback principles. Cybernetics is close related to control theory and systems theory.

    I do hope other people will help improve this introduction some more. The main reason for eliminating the older intro is that (almost) no article in Wikipedia starts with four or five different definitions. Every article we just have to make a choice, that makes some sence and gives a relatively simple description. - Mdd (talk) 13:41, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

    Now I added the following two sentences to get some more general introduction:

    Contemporary cybernetics began as an interdisciplinary study connecting the fields of control systems, electrical network theory, mechanical engineering, logic modeling, evolutionary biology and neuroscience in the 1940s. Other fields of study which have influenced or been influenced by cybernetics include game theory; system theory (a mathematical counterpart to cybernetics); psychology, especially neuropsychology, behavioral psychology,cognitive psychology; philosophy and even architecture.[citation needed]

    I think that these particulair sentences give a good general introduction of cybernetics. - Mdd (talk) 15:48, 26 November 2007 (UTC)