Talk:Cyber-dissident

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Could someone change the URL of the external link for the Committee to Protect bloggers to http://committeetoprotectbloggers.org? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.221.70.2 (talk) 23:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

This article was nominated for deletion in the past. The result of the discussion was keep.

I'd suggest that the definition is far beyond a professional or citizen journalist. Dissidents aren't always from the media domain.

[edit] Propaganda-pushing by RJ CG

RJ CG has repeatedly attempted to claim that "Aljoša Mirnõi" is:

• a "cyber-dissident";
• being persecuted by Estonian authorities.

Neither is the case. Mr. "Mirnõi" is a Russian Federation's citizen, living in Russia, who made calls for terrorist attacks on Estonia's infrastructure; hardly a respected mode of dissidency. Furthermore, the extent of this supposed "persecution" is requesting legal assistance from Russia. To the best of my knowledge, this request has not received positive response from Russian authorities so far.

Accordingly, I have reverted. Digwuren 18:16, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Couple of comments here. 1st, calls for violence are irrelevant. Mr. Berezovsky had repeatedly made calls for violent regime change against current Russian regime and it did not cause British authorities to withdraw his protection. You can respect or hate dissidents who're calling for a violent struggle against regimes they consider hostile, but they do not stop being dissidents because of that. 2nd, my (Estonian) source says that Estonia tries to issue an international arrest warrant, not to request a legal assistance from Russia. That is enough to consider Mr. Mirny persecuted, as Egyptian guy had not been tried either, he was just arrested. Estonians did not arrest Mr. Mirny for the lack of trying. RJ CG 18:54, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

By the way, thank you for adding proof to evidence list for WP:STALK. You appeared on this page to revert my edit and then started to randomly shuffle paragraphs. Do you hope this would be considered legitimate edits, not related to revert wars you started? RJ CG 18:54, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't get it - how could person from foreign country, with foreign citizenship, who probably has never been in Estonian soil and has nothing to do with Estonian regime himself, be called "dissident"? And if he has somehow broken Estonian law, how could legal measures, taken against him, qualify as "persecution"? Applying same logic, isn't then every ordinary scriptkiddie, acting against foreign country webpages, somehow dissident, and battle against international cybercrime - oh dear - systematic persecution of dissidents?
Well, RJ, I think that you owe us here a bit more explanations, or maybe some independent sources that would also call mr Mirny "dissident". Otherwise, I'm afraid we have to remove this section.
--Ptrt 13:12, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, we had been through it before while editing Rein Lang article. Drama "Adolf" had been (and still is) called "antifascist" on the ground that it "reveals Hitler's warped mind" and so on. Mr. Mirny's alleged crime is "calls for violent regime change in Estonia" made in Internet. A Dissident, broadly defined, is a person who actively opposes an established opinion, policy, or structure. There's nothing in this definition about nationality, ethnic origin or previous credentials. So he's a dissident and he committed his alleged crime in cyberspace. If it doesn't fit the bill, I don't know what it. BTW, yandex.ru (biggest search engine of Russophone web segment) returns 26 hits on "Alyosha Mirny" and "dissident". I consider that proof enough.RJ CG 14:34, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Mr. "Mirny"'s crime is calling for terrorist acts against Estonian infrastructure, with particular instructions to use arms and attack factories, bridges, governmental constructions and other objects. Such calls constitute a crime under both laws of the Republic of Estonia and the Russian Federation; accordingly, a MLAT applies and Russia can be expected to provide assistance. In practice, that's unlikely, though.

Calling a random criminal a "dissident" is demeaning to real dissidents, not to mention counter-factual. Digwuren 14:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Come on, since what time calls for militant actions are sufficient to deny person a dissident status? London is full of anti-Russian dissidents with proven records of both calls for violence and (as in case with Mr. Zakaev) proven track record of participation in armed insurgency. There's a guy in Miami who has arrest warrants on his head for blowing up planes and convictions in absentia in half of Latin America. Nobody would strip them of their "political refugee" status because of that. Let's face it, chances of co-operation between law enforcement officials in such politically-inspired cases are strongly depend on politial relationships between countries and Estonia haven't done a lot to win Russian cooperation. It may be unfair, but life is like this... RJ CG 12:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Dissident status comes from disagreeing with the establishment, and necessarily implies that the would-be dissident resides, or has resided, for a considerable period of time inside that establishment. All Russian dissidents in London are emigrants from Russia. "Mr. Mirny" has apparently even never *been* to Estonia.

Furthermore, you're attempting to claim that mere calls of terrorism make somebody a dissident. This would be considered ridiculous by any dissident support group. Digwuren 01:38, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Let's stick to question about being dissident (or not), Lang or Adolf and discussions held in past somewhere else are completely irrelevant here.
Question: why is poor mr Mirny "persecuted"? Is it only because his beliefs or because his criminal activity? Calls to violence, what my opponent is very keen to call irrelevant, are the one and only reason why Estonian police is interested from this poor blogging individual. That kind of activity is some or other way criminalized everywhere, it doesn't matter against what you are, violence is the keyword. So, while I even could agree to call mr Mirny "political dissident" by definition, I'm strongly objecting to call legal actions against him "persecution" - this is normal criminal investigation (where unfortunately one country refuses to provide any assistance, despite agreements between countries).
As with yandex, like my opponent himself said, this is "search engine of Russophone web segment" - so I'm little concerned how independent these results really are - sorry, but it's known fact that Russophone web is a bit biased when dealing with Estonia.
So, bottom line - sorry, but I'm still not very convinced that this saga about poor mr Mirny is appropriate here.
--Ptrt 15:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

As per [1], an all-European arrest warrant has been issued. Estonian State Procurature also added that this was done because Russian authorities had refused coöperation. Digwuren 09:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

So we agreed that Mr. Mirny is dissident, right? About "persecution", see Wikidictionary. His case is perfect match for this definition too. Regarding your acusation of bias against Russophone internet segment - you're risking to open a huge can of worms. Do you really want to exclude sources based on possible bias in their coverage? Would you want to do it, whole Estonian media will be banned with their well-poven tracks of using ethnic slurs as part of ad campaign, wholesale accusation of the Russophone community in Estonia of thuggery after the Bronze Night and other "impartial" actions. So I advice you to think twice before you propose something of this nature. RJ CG 12:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Nobody did any "wholesale accusation of the Russophone community in Estonia of thuggery". The press said that the drunk people who broke windows of shops stole alcohol, hugo boss clothes and tampons were just thugs. And I don't see anything incorrect in that. Most of the vandals outside also had criminal record. And not all the vandals were russophobe. The press coverage after bronze nights about rest of the Estonian russophobe community was rather positive instead. Suva 14:09, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

What about infamous "Vene Patt" articles? You happily ignore them and concentrate on smalllip service made toward "another Russians" (although no representatives of "other Russians" had been allowed to voice their opinion in Estonian media with possible exception of Krishtafovich, widely seen by Russophone community as KAPO's marionette). But I'd like to avoid "he said, she said" mode as counter-productive and I would like to ask you a question. Do you believe that Estonian media are less biased against Russia and Russophones than Russian media against Estonia and Estonians? RJ CG 14:44, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Copy from wiktionary: to persecute (third-person singular simple present persecutes, present participle persecuting, simple past persecuted, past participle persecuted) To pursue in a manner to injure, grieve, or afflict; to beset with cruelty or malignity; to harass; especially, to afflict, harass, punish, or put to death, for adherence to a particular religious creed or mode of worship. "Do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." -Matt. v. 44. To harass with importunity; to pursue with persistent solicitations; to annoy.

It doesn't mention anything about putting out a legal arrest order for a criminal. So how do you explain your claim that this matches the persecution dictionary definition? Suva 14:04, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Google on "Napster persecution". You would find something in tune of 600,000 links calling actions of recording industry against Napster and music downloaders "persecution". To me this is proof enough that significant group seen absolutely lawful suits by recording companies as "persecution". Google on "Berezovsky persecution" or "Khodorkovsky persecution". Both lawsuits, although undoubtedly politically motivated, are not completely without merits. That does not stop respectable news outlets from calling both sagas "political persecution" as in "to harrass one for one's political views". Moreover, case of the Yuri Liim clearly shows that Estonian law enforcement system differenciate between calls for violence from groups it sees as pro-Estonian (Liim got slap on a wrist for calls to blow up Bronze Soldier) and groups and/or individuals it perceives anti-Estonian. If this isn't persecution, I don't know what is. RJ CG 14:44, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Jüri Liim took it up to national court before getting a "slap on the wrist". And actually he didn't do any calls of violence. He said that he will blow up the statue. But I guess in canada breaking a statue and armed attempt to throw over the government and killing people based on ethnicity are considered same level crimes. Suva 04:17, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

• Personally, I do not think Mirny deserved to be called a dissident. AFAIK at no time he would reasonably expect some persecution. I would change my mind if either there is a reference to a respectable publication or a notable opinion calling him a dissident (I would prefer an American or Western European outlet, but major Russian or Estonian publications would qualify) or there is an info about his persecution or expected persecution Alex Bakharev 09:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

As of now, he's merely a fugitive. Unless something will significantly change in Russian-European relations, he won't even be arrested as long as he stays within the boundaries of Russian Federation and its satellite states.

I'm not sure he's really notable, but there's an article, Alyosha Mirny, about his case. Digwuren 10:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I would like to see your argument how Mr. Mirny's case is different from Mr. Berezovsky's? Beside an obvious diferences in an ability to influence a course of events, I mean. Both men did issue calls for violence to fight for political cause (in fact, Mr. Berezovsky's fight has to be considered much more selfish, as he will undoubtedly benefit from a regime change in Russia more than Mr. Mirny from a regime change in Estonia). Both are shielded from law enforcement of some country by some other country. Mr. Berezovsky is widely considered Dissident. Why don't you agree with same status for Mr. Mirny? RJ CG 12:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Being an xenophobe doesn't make one a dissident. At the same time I am not really sure about your claims about Berezovskys selfisness and calls for violence. Can you back that up? Suva 13:01, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Berezovsky "selfishness" is obvious. Billionaire who's dealing is still mostly around Russian business with other countries is obviously interested in changing regime from an extremely hostile to his interests to a neutral or, better yet, friendly. I don't see that should be proven here. About his calls for violence, please read wiki article instead of stalking yours truly. It got plenty of data. RJ CG 13:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Trying to use analogies to define something not very clear is unfortunately very tricky business, as thread usually tends to drift to arguing about correctness of opponent's "model" and with that everybody is forgetting the original problem. But if you are really interested (in which I'm starting to doubt, your point-pushing is already a bit too obvious) - IMHO the primary difference between mr Berezovsky and mr Mirny is fact, that mr Berezovsky is Russian and was living in Russia until he was forced to leave, giving him at least moral justice to criticize beforementioned country's government and policies. I'm not sure about mr Mirny's stand, as there's been not much constructive criticism heard from him, only what "to do" - i.e. calls to terrorist acts, against foreign (for him) country. I can accept that your viewpoint differs here, although I have my doubts about your rationale and it's consistency in different situations.
One note - your constant accusations against everybody who happens to disagree with you made me think that maybe you should refresh your memory what stalking really is. Considering that you (among your other edits) continuously edit very small set of articles with very specific style and point, have you thought that this small (Estonian) specific set of articles is anyway watchlisted by certain (Estophile) members and your "campaign" (what you probably like to keep disguised - why else these "stalking" accusations?) is not very well disguised at all. You not important enough to stalk, believe me ;) This desperate looking for confrontation - you're not trying to make yourself look like poor victim, are you? Considering the number of edit wars and confrontations you personally started or participated... -- Ptrt 15:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Ptrt, you have hit the nail here. I call it the "Upset people are stupid method". Make outrageous claims and bring out degrading analogs. Upset everyone so much that they start reacting instead of acting and then complain about WP:CIVIL or WP:NPA Its rather effective too, until you see through it. Then its simply pathetic. As to Mr. Mirnõi, well i will want him to be called a dissident by some RELIABLE source because that sure is an unusual claim needing some serious evidence to back it up. --Alexia Death the Grey 15:25, 16 August 2007 (UTC)