Talk:Cultural depictions of spiders

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Good article Cultural depictions of spiders has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.


This article is within the scope of WikiProject Spiders, a collaborative effort to improve and expand Wikipedia's coverage of spiders. If you would like to participate, visit the project page where you can join the project and/or contribute to discussion.
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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on September 7, 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.
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Contents

[edit] Good article nomination on hold

This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of October 7, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: There's some areas that need improvement; while engaging speech is generally good for reading, the WP approach needs to be more factual though still can be engaging. "Even as children, many of us are exposed...", the reader should never be addressed. The section on Tsuchigimo doesn't mention anything about spiders until the last line.
adressed --Lenticel (talk) 08:57, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
2. Factually accurate?: You need more references on a few points, the Tsuchigimo for example, and probably some in the first section of the Mythology. It otherwise seems right, particularly if you cut down the text as described below in thoroughness/broadness.
more cites were added--Lenticel (talk) 08:57, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
3. Broad in coverage?: This seems to cover most common areas, but there's some areas given more focus than others; namely the Greek story of Arachne, and the part about Spider-man. For reference, I think the paragraph on the spider lore in several cultures in between the Greek Arachne and the Tsuchigimo is the right amount of detail and I would consider revising the other paragraphs to be as brief (particularly if the interlinked pages also describe the mythology/story appropriately) I would consider rearranging the section on spiders in literature, in comics (since Spider-man is sufficiently notable to expand this seperately), and in TV/film as one single overall section with three sub-sections, maybe calling this overall suggestion "In Creative Arts".
Also, consider if there are any popular myths that are used to portray spiders that are inaccurate (see, for example Lemmings jumping en masse into danger), I don't know if there are any so I can't say for sure if such exist.
Although I can't address the weight given to Arachne, I think I have diluted its influence in the text by introducing more from other cultures. The TV/film is now a single heading and there are sections are rearranged in such a manner.--Lenticel (talk) 09:57, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
4. Neutral point of view?: Seems fine.
5. Article stability? Seems fine.
6. Images?: Another image of spider lore from ancient cultures would be nice. I would argue strongly that to not use a Spider-man comic cover in the comic sections is a major major faux pas. A non-free image for a movie or TV show with spiders couldn't hurt, especially if you go horror/b-movie route (might I suggest "The Giant Spider Invasion"). All images appear to have appropriate license and FUR rationale, so good there.
I added images that are free rather than FUR ones. I think it is better if we don't use non-free images at all.--Lenticel (talk) 08:57, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again. If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your work so far. — MASEM 16:51, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments Masem - I've been asked to help out here, but I've got a few other articles on my list first. The whole set up now was just meant to save the article from deletion. I'll see what I can do, but keep in mind, most of what you see here is just rewritten from bullet point sections into prose, so some parts don't have refs. I was hoping someone else would pick up the slack, but obviously not lol. :) Spawn Man 03:17, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Hey I just picked up a couple of cool animal/symbolism books from the library, both of which mention spiders. Will try to give article a lick o' boot polish soon. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:27, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I'll keep the recent changes in mind and I'll give you guys some time to clean it up (about a week); if its still not up to GA standards, I'll fail this GA, but don't take that as a bad sign (there's a GA backlog, we're trying to move things out as quiockly and reasonably as possible); once you do get a chance to clean it up, please feel free to resubmit as a GA. So please don't feel pressure to complete it within the week. --MASEM 04:53, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks - will see what we can do...cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm, I typed in "spiders" + "culture" at the library and nothing came up, so I've exhausted all my immediate sources. Sorry I can't be of more help. Spawn Man 00:54, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Failed "good article" nomination

This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of October 20, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: See points in GA review above
2. Factually accurate?: Needs additional references
3. Broad in coverage?: Not balanced still, see above GA review
4. Neutral point of view?: Ok
5. Article stability? Ok
6. Images?: See above (particularly why no Spider-man cover over Batman)


When these issues are addressed, the article can be renominated. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a Good article reassessment. Thank you for your work so far. — MASEM 16:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] merging giant spider into here

I note someone placed a tag here on this. i thought it was a good idea, no reason why rpg matierial should be hived off from other cultural material. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:33, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I proposed the merge following this discussion. We can create a new section or subsection named In games or In video games. But subsections are not needed for each game. -- Cenarium (talk) 21:42, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Two rather more heavyweight cultural depictions of spiders

Admittedly the fact these references are to spiders (as opposed to, say, rats) is only secondary to the main plots of the works. But they are clearly two of the most culturally important references to spiders in film and literature and illustrate the darker side that is culturally associated with spiders. I can't see that Dostoevsky is any less important than Harry Potter. 87.113.14.219 (talk) 22:27, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi, feel free to make the edit yourself. I mentioned Through a Glass Darkly, but I have not been able to find sources for Fyodor Dostoevsky's novel. Cenarium (talk) 16:07, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
For even more sources, see here, particularly this book. Best, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 05:22, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Renomination for GA

Should this article still fail GA, please put it on hold and post problems here or my talk page.--Lenticel (talk) 10:09, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GAN review

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
    lead, tone issues
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
  • Lead says "Spiders are pervasive throughout folklore and mythology. Spinning and binding is evident in the etymologies of the terms religion, yoga, tantra and wyrd." I see no other info in the article ellaborating this point.

removed uncited text (only tantra seem to have "weave" as the root word) and replaced with cited one.--Lenticel (talk) 06:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

  • The Arachne tale details can be removed, as UNDUE. Summarize tale in 1 para.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 05:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

--Tale was summarized to one paragraph, excessive details were removed.--Lenticel (talk) 06:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Reads like an essay. Tone issues:
    • "Because of its widespread distribution and unusual abilities, as well as the fear and awe it inspires in certain people, the spider has been portrayed many times in all manner of human culture and will continue to be portrayed in this manner."

--removed as this seems to be an essay "ender" that is irrelevant to an encyclopedic article.--Lenticel (talk) 06:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

    • "Indeed, spiders can be found on most land masses and therefore have entered into the world's consciousness."

--Searched the web but can't find source for this, besides it seems to be OR i.e. "Spiders are everywhere, therefore this should explain its presence in most cultures"--Lenticel (talk) 06:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

    • "The spider's notoriety has gone so far that in some instances they have even been compared with vampires,"

--Made the tone more neutral.--Lenticel (talk) 06:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC) --Redtigerxyz (talk) 05:41, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

PASS--Redtigerxyz (talk) 13:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Placed in "Cultural symbols and objects" category.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 13:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dine depiction of spider woman

Hi there. Just saw the article, and wondered if you might be interested in adding more to the Navajo portion. Canyon de Chelly National Monument (pr. Canyon d-shay) is the home of Spider Rock (very nice picture on the very sad Canyon de Chelly article), where Spider Woman was born. Spider Woman taught the Navajo how to weave, according to their creation stories. You can read it here. --Moni3 (talk) 13:25, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe that this source would be more helpful in the Spider Grandmother article.--Lenticel (talk) 13:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)