Talk:Cult suicide

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[edit] "Multiple Issues" confusing

The little box at the top of the "article" page (which box I can't seem to edit) says that the page "has multiple issues." That is confusing since it could mean that the page has been re-issued several times or appears under different names in Wikipedia. Better to say "multiple problems." Anybody who knows how to fix the box feel free.... Carrionluggage (talk) 06:47, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

This is about tag cleanup. As all of the tags are more than a year old, there is no current discussion relating to them, and there is a great deal of editing done since the tags were placed, they will be removed. This is not a judgement of content. If there is cause to re-tag, then that of course may be done, with the necessary posting of a discussion as to why, and what improvements could be made. This is only an effort to clean out old tags, and permit them to be updated with current issues if warranted.

I'll remove the entire box, and anyone who has cause to put new tags can do so, and comment here.Jjdon (talk) 20:12, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] --

I removed this side comment from the article:

discuss prevailing belief systems in such cults

--cprompt 02:46, Jun 2, 2004 (UTC)

I think the essential disctinction should be made between religious groups that have encourage suicide such as Heaven's gate and People's temple and the groups that have not done that such as scientology. Andries 20:00, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of some groups

I don't know why Unification Church is described in a paragraph here, while other groups which have ACTUALLY condoned or carried out suicide only get links. Same with Scientology.

Article should be rewritten to distinguish between:

groups that actively plan for or commit suicide; and,
groups suspected by the general public or by cult opponents

Especially when the group in question (like UC) is on record as OPPOSING suicide. For example, we show the movie What Dreams May Come in our Bible camps to teenagers, to warn them of the consequences: as Cuba Gooding says, "Suicides go to hell." --Uncle Ed (El Dunce) 18:17, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree that movements that have explicitly encourages suicides (like Peoples temple and solar temple) should not be lumped together with groups that may have caused suicide by making false promises (e.g. quackery) and bringing its members in difficult situations such as scientology and my former guru Sathya Sai Baba who sexually abuses good looking male devotees and who also is a quack. (scroll down) [1]. Andries 19:02, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Let's not be hasty, Andries. If a cult is driving people to suicide, that is yet another category. Like Japanese university entrance exams: students who fail to get into Waseda or other big name schools sometimes kill themselves.

The question is, what sort of involvement is associated with increased suicide rates. If suicide is 1 in 100,000 per year in the general public, that is 0.001 percent. Solar Temple had over 50.000 percent, I guess. People's Temple is unclear: some were murdered (shot in the back when they ran away to escape drinking poison, or forced to drink poison at gunpoint).

I have heard of only two reports of suicide in the UC(and both cases are disputed, one guy fell down an elevator shaft, another fell off a balcony). But please note this is off the top of my head. I have NOT researched it. I only know what church teachings are. --Uncle Ed (El Dunce) 14:38, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Martyrdom = Cult Suicide???

After reading this section 3 times, I am still having a hard time understanding how "martyrdom, as found in religions such as Christianity and Islam, is tantamount to suicide". I understand the idea of a suicide bomber, or some sort of ascetic suicide, perhaps, but being burnt at the stake because of your religious beliefs or practices -- 'how' is this "cult suicide"? If anyone could clarify this I would really appreciate it, or I will severely edit this section. I should also mention that the grammar of this paragraph is atrocious. Ddddan 22:15, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Just for the record, it is a belief held by some atheists that it is better to live by giving lip service to a religion than to die for any reason. In effect a martyr allows himself to die. This is in accordance with the definition of suicide. In which through one's actions or inactions one dies. --metta, The Sunborn ☥ 20:22, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Is it suicide when a police officer is killed in the line of duty? How about a captured soldier who dies while being tortured for information on troop movements? -- Agredon 01:40, 22 Feb 2007 (Central)

[edit] Various suggestions

Distinguish better between:

martyrdom, widely regarded as worthy; and,
cult suicide, generally regarded as really stupid

And in the Scientology section, we apparently endorse the view that former scientologists are more suicidal while condemning Scientology for predicting that departing members are apt to be suicidal. Let's pick one of these, or note the contradiction.

Also, if Conway doesn't say how Scientology makes people suicidal, it's more of a detractor's claim than a sociological statement of fact. Has anyone read her book? (I tried twice to get through it, but it was so low in vitamin content I'd rather eat junk food). -- Uncle Ed (talk) 15:49, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] from Vfd

On 10 Mar 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. The result was keep. See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Cult suicide for a record of the discussion. —Korath (Talk) 17:49, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Spinoff Martyrdom?

Maybe Martyrdom should be a separate article? It does tend to be an individual act, whereas cult suicide is more of a group act. StuTheSheep 03:20, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the individual vs. group aspect is important. Thanks for pointing that out. Also, martyrdom typically does NOT involve suicide. The classic case of Saint Stephen being stoned to death (shortly after saying, "You stiff-necked people!") comes to mind. See Acts of the Apostles. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 17:20, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] (Advertisement)

(This section contained an advertisement trying to get people to join a yahoo group, I have removed it. Feel free to look at it in the history of this page if you really want to) --Xyzzyplugh 13:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Groups to replace

I admit I don't have a positive view of the Unification Church as a whole, but even at my most negative I didn't see them as suicidal. I'm tempted to remove them and replace them with something else. If I can find a suitable replacement to fit the bracket they are currently in would there be objections?--T. Anthony 06:13, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Islamic Fundamentalism

Can we add this one, I mean the Suicide bombings?

[edit] Cross-article disagreement:

In the Cult Suicide article, on the subject of the Heaven's Gate Cult, it says:

"Some male members of the cult underwent voluntary castration in preparation for the genderless life they believed awaited them after the suicide."

However, in the main Heaven's Gate Article, it says:

"Many male members of the cult voluntarily underwent castration as an extreme means of maintaining the ascetic lifestyle."

---

So which is it?

And I've also been noticing a lot of direct copying between some of these articles. Is that allowed?

Inspector Baynes 17:32, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sidebars (templates)

The Cults template and the Suicide template are making the formatting of the main body of the article look bad. Everything is piled together visually, but I don't know how to fix it. Joie de Vivre 18:44, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance

This site has been questioned as a reliable source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/dc_solar.htm. On what basis? -Will Beback · † · 19:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jehovah's Witness

Does this belong in an article about "Cult Suicide"? Paddy 21:34, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I took that stuff out. Some were arguing that religions which deny medicine are cult suicide, but on reflection I don't think that's valid. I may have taken too many groups out though.--T. Anthony 02:50, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Totally erroneous in the first place. JW's don't deny themselves medical treatment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.60.32.13 (talk) 20:38, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Original research?

An editor posted an {OR} tag on the artilce with the edit summary:

(OR probably refers to the lack of sources and conclusions drawn without said sources.)

There are 21 inline sources and another dozen listed at the end. That doesn't appear to be a lack of sources. Are there particular sourcing problems that can be identified? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

(just an example) The section 'Martyrdom' contains no sources and a lot of OR. Similarly, many sections/subsections are devoid of sources. Sfacets 00:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

It'd be more helpful if you could tag the parts you are concerned about, rather than the whole article. Since there are so many sources a general tag somplaining about the lack of sources won't get any serious attention (as indeed it hasn't since you put it up many months ago). ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:36, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The term "Cult suicide"

Is the term "Cult suicide" an actual term, or is it simply the juxtaposition of two words 'cult' and 'suicide'? Sfacets 22:17, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Again I ask: is this just a term arising from someone's Original research, or can it be attributed? Sfacets 21:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

That comes under the category of silly questions. Just google it if you really need proof that this is an established term. -- Lonewolf BC 23:18, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately for us all, Google search results are not valid references. Sfacets 23:21, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

And that comes under the category of non sequiturs. The idea was for you to look at the search-results and see how ridiculous your fussing over this was.
-- Lonewolf BC 05:29, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Google searches are a fine source to show that a term is in actual use. But here are some headlines to prove it:

Rights Body Condemns Kanungu Cult Suicide, Katamba G. Mohammed. Africa News Service. Durham: Mar 26, 2000. p. 1
It was murder, say family of boy in cult suicide riddle GORDON RAYNER. Daily Mail. London (UK): Mar 28, 2007. p. 19
JONESTOWN MASSACRE RECALLED NO MEMORIALS IN GUYANA 25 YEARS AFTER MORE THAN 900 CULT SUICIDES Bert Wilkinson The Associated Press. South Florida Sun - Sentinel. Fort Lauderdale, Fla.: Nov 19, 2003. p. 26.A
Coroner denounces cult suicide claim, Terry Kirby Chief Reporter. The Independent. London (UK): Nov 5, 2003. p. 4
Cult suicide, Stephen S Schade. Chicago Tribune. Chicago, Ill.: Apr 28, 2001. p. 23
Cult suicide victims stable in hospital, WANG YING, China Daily staff. China Daily (North American ed.). New York, N.Y.: Feb 3, 2001. p. 1
Details on cult suicide attempts, China Daily (North American ed.). New York, N.Y.: Jan 31, 2001. p. 1
Cult's suicide protest embarrasses China Calum MacLeod in Beijing and James Palmer. The Independent. London (UK): Jan 24, 2001. p. 14
Kanungu Deaths Similar To Other Cult Suicides, Paul Redfern. Africa News Service. Durham: Mar 29, 2000. p. 1
Difficulties hamper cult-suicide probe, The Globe and Mail. Toronto, Ont.: Mar 23, 2000. p. A.11
Death toll 500 in cult suicides Cincinnati Post. Cincinnati, Ohio: Mar 21, 2000. p. 2.A
600 feared burned alive in doomsday cult suicide, Evening Standard. London (UK): Mar 20, 2000. p. 7

And so on. that should be sufficient to show it's a term in general use. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:16, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Again, I'm asking for a valid source which proves that this is a term used in a sociological context. What you gave above are headlines or titles which are often abbreviated/changed and have no academic standing. Sfacets 00:21, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

What does it matter if the term is used in sociology? I don't see any claim that it's a sociological term. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:26, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

It is classed under Category:Anti-cult terms and concepts. There is in fact to indication that it is a real term, other than sensationalist headlines you would use to justify is use. If anything we could use "cult suicide is term used in the media descibing a group referred to as a "cult" leading its membership to commit suicide". Sfacets 00:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Just because it's used by journalists doesn't mean it isn't a real term. Are you saying that it shouldn't be categorized under Category:Anti-cult terms and concepts? Are anti-cult terms only used by sociologists? I don't understand you objection to this commonly-used term. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:55, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Are anti-cult activists journalists? Sfacets 01:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, I suppose they could be. What does it matter? The dispute here is that you appear to be claiming that "Cult suicide" is a term that WP editors have made up. There is ample evidecne that it is a term in general use. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:19, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

There is no indication that it is used generally. newspaper headlines usually will summarize/shorten a long headline. There is no indication of it being used generally (in-text) in an article. So it would appear to be an invented term. Sfacets 01:38, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

That's being tendentious. There are at least 183 citations that use "cult suicide" in their titles, and another couple of hundred that use it in the body of the article. That is plenty fo show it's a term that hasn't been made up by WP editors. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:01, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Examples? Then add them to the article! Sfacets 02:02, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Done. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:42, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I have added appropriate templates in regards to this discussion, and changed the intro. Sfacets 08:03, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

cult suicide is a term used by a variety of writers to announce the instance of a group they regard as being a cult leading its membership to commit suicide.

That's practically gibberish. That's as bad as saying

melbourne is a name used by some people to designate a place they allege is in Australia.

Yes, that would also be accurate, but it's equally ridiculous. "Cult suicide" is the suicide of a cult. Let's keep it simple folks. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:09, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Melbourne is not a pejorative (mostly). Its use is not challenged. "Cult suicide" is a non-neutral way to describe the groups in question. Sfacets 09:25, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Who challenges "cult suicide" as a term, or calls it a pejorative? What is the more neutral term used to describe the phenomenon? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:07, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] remove Tiananmen Square Self-immolation

on the grounds that it was clearly a set-up by the Chinese Communist Party to frame Falun Gong and ramp up the persecution, and thus should not be put in the same category as groups which have actually committed suicidal acts, even as "questionable".--Asdfg12345 11:14, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

According to whom, it's a "clear set-up"? There's different sources alleging that the the self-imolators acted on their own free will. And Falun Gong is regarded as a cult by many in the west, irrelevant of the "persecution" and what the FLG-associated media wants people to believe.--PCPP 07:04, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "citequote" tag and "...are reported to...", in lead

I've given my reasons for deleting these, by edit-summary. Those reasons are quite straightforward, not needing explanation at length on the talk-page. If you, Sfacets, have a rationale for including the tag, or those 3 words, please use the talk-page to explain it. As far as I can see the one is just clutter and the other is either mere verbosity or else verbosity meant to imply doubt (i.e. "weaseling"). If the reliable sources say the cult suicides happened, then the article should simply say that they happened. -- Lonewolf BC 07:41, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

The citequote tag is needed to ascertain that the reference provided really does define the term "cult suicide" the way it is portrayed here. It will also prove that the term exists, since (see discussion) there isn't any evidence that it does. So you see the answers you gave in the edit summary were neither straightforward or adequate, since they missed the point entirely. Sfacets 07:53, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

You're not making sense. Read Template:Citequote; you should see from it that the tag is misplaced. I'm sorry to say that you are just too incoherent for me to respond further.
-- Lonewolf BC 08:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

from Template:Citequote:"Use this tag, ^{[cite this quote]}, for quotations that are used without a citation. Per Wikipedia:Citing sources: "You should always add a citation when quoting published material, and the citation should be placed directly after the quote, which should be enclosed within double quotation marks — "like this" — or single quotation marks if it's a quote-within-a-quote — "and here is such a 'quote' as an example." - what don't you understand? I am requesting citations. Simple. Sfacets 08:29, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

There is no quote involved here. -- Lonewolf BC 08:32, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

This is why I ask you and have asked you time and time again to read Talk:Cult_suicide#The_term_.22Cult_suicide.22. Sfacets 08:38, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I hate to break it to you, but I followed that as it went on. You didn't (and don't) make much sense there, either -- you seem stubbornly disatisfied, but not on any reasonable or coherent basis.
If you're going to explain why you want to keep the tag, please do so. Ditto for the three words. Otherwise this is wasting my time.
-- Lonewolf BC 08:55, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

You repeat yourself, I have already explained the reasons for the tag and the three words. Sfacets 09:27, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

You've never explained who calls "cult suicide" a pejorative term or challenges its use. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:31, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

The reason I gave was that it was a neologism issued from some editor's Original Research - and requested proof of it's existence. Sfacets 03:56, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

You've never explained the other two things comprehensibly, either. -- Lonewolf BC 03:43, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I have - if you can't understand, don't blame me. Sfacets 03:56, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Since there has been an inability to provide the citation(s) requested, I have removed the reference. Sfacets 11:54, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Ample references were provided. Erasing them and putting an new citation demand instead is disingenuous and disruptive. I've reversed your edit. -- Lonewolf BC 18:52, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Ample does not mean that these are valid references - which is why requested the citation(s) to be quoted. Please read previous discussions on this matter. Sfacets 21:50, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Media sources, such as major newspapers, are reliable sources. No one has provided a single source to show that "cult suicide" is a neologism created by Wikipedia editors. Removing proper sources is disruptive and violates NPOV and other policies. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:33, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

...and yet you refuse to provide citations to show that the term is used in-text and not just in the titles. Sfacets 22:43, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I haven't refused. If I provide them will you accept them as reliable sources? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:05, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Too late, this has been going on for days now, with both you and LoneWolf reverting without even bothering to answer my request for in-text citations to prove that the term existed. Feel free to comment on the RFC. Sfacets 23:07, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Too late for what? It's a simple question: will you accept citations from newspaper article to show that this is not a term made up by Wikipedia editors? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:09, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Too late as in I already made the RFC. But yes, as long as they appear in multiple reliable sources... Sfacets 23:12, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for comment:Use of News headlines to prove existence of term

Here are the headlines in question (emphasis added for clarity):

Rights Body Condemns Kanungu Cult Suicide, Katamba G. Mohammed. Africa News Service. Durham: Mar 26, 2000. p. 1
It was murder, say family of boy in cult suicide riddle GORDON RAYNER. Daily Mail. London (UK): Mar 28, 2007. p. 19
JONESTOWN MASSACRE RECALLED NO MEMORIALS IN GUYANA 25 YEARS AFTER MORE THAN 900 CULT SUICIDES Bert Wilkinson The Associated Press. South Florida Sun - Sentinel. Fort Lauderdale, Fla.: Nov 19, 2003. p. 26.A
Coroner denounces cult suicide claim, Terry Kirby Chief Reporter. The Independent. London (UK): Nov 5, 2003. p. 4
Cult suicide, Stephen S Schade. Chicago Tribune. Chicago, Ill.: Apr 28, 2001. p. 23
Cult suicide victims stable in hospital, WANG YING, China Daily staff. China Daily (North American ed.). New York, N.Y.: Feb 3, 2001. p. 1
Details on cult suicide attempts, China Daily (North American ed.). New York, N.Y.: Jan 31, 2001. p. 1
Cult's suicide protest embarrasses China Calum MacLeod in Beijing and James Palmer. The Independent. London (UK): Jan 24, 2001. p. 14
Kanungu Deaths Similar To Other Cult Suicides, Paul Redfern. Africa News Service. Durham: Mar 29, 2000. p. 1
Difficulties hamper cult-suicide probe, The Globe and Mail. Toronto, Ont.: Mar 23, 2000. p. A.11
Death toll 500 in cult suicides Cincinnati Post. Cincinnati, Ohio: Mar 21, 2000. p. 2.A
600 feared burned alive in doomsday cult suicide, Evening Standard. London (UK): Mar 20, 2000. p. 7

I've offered to cite text of articles as well, but this should be sufficient to prove that the term is not a neologism created by Wikipedia editors. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:18, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

This is beyond ridiculous. Not only do the above references amply prove the existence of the term, anybody in the mainstream of the English-speaking world is familiar with it.
-- Lonewolf BC 23:43, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

My concern (as I pointed out) is that the titles of news articles are commonly compressed/changed to fit into a certain space on printed media, or to convey a message. Since no in-text citations could prove that use the term was a consistent phenomenon, here we are. Sfacets 23:54, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for providing the in-text citations. Sfacets 00:21, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Responding to "Was that so hard?", Sfacets' edit-summary for the above remark:
I doubt it much. Regardless, the demand was an unreasonable time-waster. Unless you've been living under a rock, you knew perfectly well that "cult suicide" is a commonplace term. -- Lonewolf BC 01:38, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

It was a reasonable request - Google search results for instance list WP articles first, followed by News headings. I have never heard anyone going around using the term "cult suicide" - Guy1: "Did you hear about that group up on the hill"? Guy2: "yes, a tragedy - a tragic example of cult suicide". The term is a juxtaposition of two buzz words, combined for sensationalist effect. What really wasted time here was the reluctance of editors to provide citations. Sfacets 01:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Pull the other one. -- Lonewolf BC 01:51, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

RfC Response Yes the citations do amply prove the existence of the common and familiar term. Dlabtot 18:11, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suicide Laws?

I'm Currently writing a fictional novel on a type of 'Cult suicide' and i couldn't find alot of information on the laws of of suicide.

For instance, there should be a section stating the laws taken by the government in the case of a suicide. Should one survive a suicide attempt, what charges will be filed?

Also, if anybody finds any information about Communal towns, i would be very gratfull if they would contact me with it. Michael hibbs (talk) 19:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

suicide is bad —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.109.110.20 (talk) 17:16, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Missing something

I don't khnow if it was wrtten weird but i thought you missed one of the biggest ones. One guy had told people that this rockhet behind a giant asteroid was going to takhe them to heaven or aliens (can't rember) and he gave them all matching jumpsuits and said to drink this stuff and they would wakhe up on the ship but really it was a cult, but more of a mass murder? I think it happened in 1994, and he last name was apple-something, can't remember? Can anyone clear this up for me?--68.3.18.11 (talk) 20:59, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Just realized, a Family Guy episode used that same idea, i thinkh it was the 2nd (episode).--68.3.18.11 (talk) 21:02, 13 April 2008 (UTC)