Talk:Cult

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To-do list for Cult:	edit · history · watch · refresh
describing the difference between marginal, peripheral, and core members as per Eileen Barker's article in Bromley's book Politics of religious apostasy describing daily life in cults (probably no generalization is possible) sources of conflict: 1. custody dispute in case of intentional community, and 2. distraught parents whose children are encouraged or demanded to get 100% involved at the expense of friends, career, education, and family "cult" also used for political and other secular organizations with uncritically accepted ideas, high levels of control of members' lives, and a charismatic founder, e.g. Lyndon LaRouche, Wilhelm Reich, Ayn Rand, Werner Erhart experience or observation of parnormal events for which a rational is hard to find, sometimes even by non-members during the cult's meeting. Examples DLM and SSB. Refereces Messer (in Barker's introduction to NRM), Galanter (in Len Oakes' book), John Hislop, Mick Brown Spiritual Tourist, chapter House of God Governments: Russia Law_on_Freedom_of_Conscience_and_Religious_Associations and Switzerland [1] (see talk page). show distinctions between a cult and a culture. Is a cult just a little culture? Is a cultish culture a cult too? Show distinctions and connections between cults and non-cults. 1) Content (eg one-true faith against many false faiths). 2) Methods (eg open vs closed, covert vs overt, facts/fictions, state vs sanction). 3) Context (where is the cult's/non-cults locus of control.)
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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5

Contents 1 Exiting Cultus Section 2 "Cult" and "Occult" 3 Article issues 4 Possibly redundant article Cult (religious practice) 5 Definitions 6 Theological and Sociological terms 7 Unrelated material 7.1 Political partisans and closed-mindedness 8 Theological definition 9 proselitism of cults in 3rd world countries 10 Discrimination 11 Theories about joining cults and NRMs 12 Suspicious Cult Activities on Editorial -Cult-POV or CTPOV? 13 Dictionary definitions 14 Scientology 15 Alcoholics Anonymous 16 Claim of POV text in sociology section 17 Sexual gratification and cult leaders 18 B I T E 19 Raelian sessions invited or required? 20 Sexual gratification and plural marriage 21 Plural marriage by leaders 21.1 Warren Jeffs entry 21.1.1 Why should plural marriage be included? 21.1.2 Is a polygamous group always a cult? 21.1.3 Did Smith illegally abuse minors? 21.1.4 If Smith incited Jeffs' crime, didn't King David also? 21.1.5 Why should plural marriage be included, and other responses 22 AA

[edit] Exiting Cultus Section

The entire section seems to be based on non-empirical conjecture by counselors who make money from counseling people who exit cults. I think that this section should be a abridged to a couple of sentences that say something along the lines of "a lot of people leave cults, they temporarily feel guilty, and a few people may find it difficult" and to emphasize the lack of empirical research in this area. --PB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.126.151.171 (talk) 15:51, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Cult" and "Occult"

For me, these words sound synonymous. But there probably some differences between them. What are they?61.9.126.41 04:16, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

If you read the introduction to the article Occult, you should get an idea of the difference. (RookZERO 01:32, 17 July 2007 (UTC))

That is one of the reasons these words are used so often by religious groups when speaking of other religious groups. However, the words evolve from two different lating words; cult evolved from the latin cultus meaning worship. Occult evolved from the latin occultus meaning hidden or secret.

In propaganda words are used to enfer meaning, either positive or negative. When studying religions it is interesting to note what words are used. IMO, it is one of the ways I use to determine if the literature I am reading is a philosophical discussion, or just an attack meant to achieve an emotional response. Excellent question; it woudl be well worth your time to investigate all of the articles to gain a better understanding. Cheers. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 06:39, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article issues

Taken from the template: This article or section has multiple issues:

• It may contain original research or unverified claims. (tagged since December 2006)
• It does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by citing reliable sources. (tagged since December 2006)
• It may be too long. Some content may need to be summarized or split.

Where is the original research, and what sources ar needed?? Also, where can it be split??

I'll try and fix the relevant issues if anyone discusses them here. If you want to help me, leave a note on my talk page. --SunStar Net ^talk 21:42, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

The article is a huge mess. Many sections are poorly sourced, have OR, undue weight issues, and the cites are not made using the proper cite format, making it difficult to check the sourced used. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 10:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm trying to figure out the whole citation issue here -- I've never seen this format before. But then we have a standard refs section as well. Is it alright if I convert the "notes" to "refs"? Mackan79 17:33, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Related question: Can I trust, if it says {{fn | 32}} that this corresponds with note 32, or does each need to be checked? Mackan79 17:46, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

While these sections have some weaknesses, it doesn't seem quite constructive to delete them without making any effort to retain quite useful information. For instance, there is quite helpful information about the types of organizations that have been called cults and the development of discourse on cult. I think somebody should revert the two recent deletions and try to edit the sections to meet any specific concerns. These sections are not so weak that they should be blanked due to blanked concerns. HG | Talk 14:20, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

There were no reputable sources cited for the section "cult debate" which was unreferenced ever since it was merged in to this article (Oct. 2006). There were only a few links that hardly supported the text. A text in Wikipedia should not make generalizations from a single incident or freely interpret sources. Andries 14:31, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possibly redundant article Cult (religious practice)

Why is the article cult (religious practice) possibly redundant? I can find no explanation, no pending merge, no pending AFD. Apart from procedural reasons, I cannot think of a good reason from a content's point of view. At least explain. Andries 00:21, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, it wouldn't necessarily be redundant. I had just been looking through this article, where the focus seems to be very much on religious groups as well. Certainly that article is useful as a more specific focus on religious groups; I suppose I was more speaking of the current content rather than the idea of the article itself. Just a thought. Mackan79 13:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

The article cult (religious practice) discusses the term cult as applied to the forms of religious devotion rather than organizations or groups deemed cults. The term "cult" referring simply to a type of devotion is older but less popular today than the term "cult" used in this article, to describe disfunctional or at least far-out-of-the-mainstreme religious or pseudoreligious groups. (RookZERO 16:12, 28 July 2007 (UTC))

"less popular today than the term "cult" used in this article" Yet the article isn't titled Cult (populist) ('popular/unpopular' are also ambiguous). Many people want to argue about mainstream-unpopular cults without having enough words to know what other people mean when they write "cult", especially in the non-pejoritive scientific sense. Religious Tolerance.org recommends learning more formal "cult" meanings, and CultFAQ.org recommends asking people what they mean by saying "cult". Milo 18:27, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

The term cult is used to mean several different and has for some time. We have separate article for several of them. (RookZERO 03:27, 31 July 2007 (UTC))

A cult (or cultus) as described in the "Cult (religious practice)" article is completely distinct from the usage of the word cult in the article "Cult". The cultus of a saint is a widespread and main-stream religious devotion among Catholic and Orthodox Christians to a saint. The "Cult (religious practice)" article has a significant amount of information that should be kept distinct from the main "Cult" article. Dgf32 01:24, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

"A little-known example is the Alexander and Rollins, 1984, scientific study concluding that the socially well-received group Alcoholics Anonymous is a cult,[4]" This cites an article but the citation leads to a biased and questionable web source and not to the article cited. Unless the citation is accurate, it should not be included.

[edit] Definitions

Misconceptions notwithstanding, I can't imagine 18 definitions is the right way to start an encyclopedia article (see reversion here [2]). I believe the guide for this is at Wikipedia:Guide_to_layout#Body_sections. I'd think a clear layout of the important definitions would surely get the information across more efficiently. Mackan79 05:51, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Milomedes, thanks for the great revisions. I still wonder, though: would the list of definitions not better fit in footnotes? I think the clarification that there are 8 definitions is helpful, but the actual list seems to add quite a lot of raw data to an already long article. I'll look at other sections for now. Mackan79 14:04, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

You are welcome here, but I take it that you are new to the Cult topics. These are among Wikipedia's most controversial articles (listed in WP:Words to avoid), which explains why the large amount of detail is considered important in a disputateous debate over details that will never end. The article is not well organized, I think partly because few want to risk disturbing the status quo by editing someone else's important details, but also it's just a really hard task. When I rewrote the intro, I later realized I hadn't even mentioned the thorny Cult debate and membership joining and leaving issues.

There are publicly famous and numerous private disputants who work on this article, and keeping some degree of peace among them is important to most of the regular editors. I think keeping that peace begins with an anchor to what several dictionaries say "cult" means.

The English word "cult" has dramatically changed in popular use, and added several junior homonym meanings in the previous hundred years. I noticed last night that even with three dictionaries, there still seems to be a missing meaning. Along with similar shifts in "sect", and opposite usages in European foreign languages, the word is hard to follow even for well-educated readers and editors. Unlike most other Wikipedia articles, the definitions are a feature of the cult story.

Religious Tolerance.org has determined that most people growing up, learning only one definition of "cult", is a major reason for populist misunderstandings that fuel dislike of groups referred to as cults, and learning more "cult" meanings is an important educational goal toward tolerance. This is one reason why the definitions are so prominently displayed.

In addition, because inexperienced readers who don't read footnotes (teenagers most likely), can edit the article, without the prominently featured definitions they start changing or snipping things out based on their one definition, thinking 'well that's not what a cult is'.

Also, with the prominent definitions display, even regular editors read them more frequently. When POV rhetoric appears, it takes less debate to consense what edits are definitionally correct. Milo 18:34, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I am new to these articles, though I have worked on several relating to sociology of religion. It seems people are in some agreement that this article is pretty messy, so hopefully some work here won't be minded. In terms of the definitions, I'm tempted to say your little explanation here is probably much more helpful in getting this point across than a list of 18 (!) definitions, in an already very long article. Possibly we'll get people to read the definitions; at the same time, reading through definitions like that requires some amount of work, trying to decide exactly what they're saying and how they all differ. In the end, I'd think an encyclopedia could do much better to provide a clear explanation of the differences, while sourcing those statements either to the dictionaries or to other reliable sources who explain the shifts, etc. Surely anyone who questioned this could then be pointed to the specific definitions. If we want to make a stronger article out of this, this would seem to me a big improvement. Mackan79 13:36, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Overall, you're describing an aspect of the meta problem at Cult, which on one dimension is to craft a local balance between superficial things like the Manual of Style, and utility factors like elements of resistance to POV warriers. The kind of "strong" article to which you're referring is a metaphor for featured article status. The kind of "strong" I want is more literal: a bulwark against artful quibbling and free-floating word meanings as practiced by the now-removed BabyDweezil.

"reading through definitions like that requires some amount of work" That's exactly right. Readers can and do skip the work of reading the definitions, but when they do that they forfeit the status to quibble. Light readers skip them and don't care, serious learners will absorb them (maybe later), but read them or don't, the prominent definitions place at a disadvantage those too many readers/editors who arrive intending to jam or halt the flow of factual cult information, whether NRM members, anti-cultists, counter-cultists, WP:Deletionists ('WP shouldn't be covering this subjective topic'), and others. Being "pointed to the specific definitions" is an indirection requiring even more work which tendentious debaters know even fewer readers will do, thus allowing even simple deception a greater chance to prevail.

I've had my say on retaining the prominently featured definitions. It's time for others to consense. Milo 00:26, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

uh? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:09, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I think you should give it a chance, Milo. You seem to have pretty low expectations, thinking we have to frame the entire article so best to fend off POV warriors. The manual of style isn't just superficial; it's designed to create an article that will best convey its topic, and that people will want to read. Let's raise our expectations of what we can do here? Mackan79 19:41, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I actually would prefer to see the definitions. Cult is a term that is used so perjoratively in our society that many don't know the vast majority of the way i is used. Having the definitions allows readers to understand the meaning of the term, why it should be used, and better yet, the context that is most appropriate for the term. I am most sensitive to the religious use of the term cult. This article has a definite need and we would be wise to learn from history; it is not an issue of low expectations, but a knowledge born of experience. I know of no better teacher. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 01:11, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, of course, I'm not saying we shouldn't offer clear definitions of the terms. The idea that a list of unexplained definitions is the best way to clear people up on this just doesn't seem very well considered. From what I can tell, the definitions are there to show the difference between U.S. and UK definitions. From just reading them, however, the point isn't at all clear. Are we saying that there are a greater number of definitions in the U.S., or used to be? Looking through the various lists, several of them also aren't what this article is about, while a novice reader would have a very hard time figuring out which are which. For instance "formal religious veneration" does a casual reader, familiar with "cults" from the popular media, know what that is saying? Ultimately, if the idea here is to be most helpful and clearest about differing definitions, I don't think this approach works.

One option might be to better separate this material out. For instance, have people discussed the idea of an article on "Cult (Sociology)"? I don't know if this solves everything, but could also help with how the term is used throughout the article (at least in that article, one wouldn't have to clarify each time which meaning was intended). Any thoughts on that? Mackan79 02:45, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

"article on "Cult (Sociology)"?" I gave that serious consideration, but splitting off the cult science has a serious problem: the more narrowly the cult article is focused on cult populism, the more hurt and angrier some readers/editors get, because minority isolation is part of what's wrong in the real world. Some sociologists are pejoratively known as "cult apologists" to counter-cultists (and anti-cultists?) because they are not cult members, but they explain the cult POV to the mainstream POV. In a battle for souls, the counter-cultists don't want cults explained, so they paint the scientists as fellow travelers.

I suggest keeping the cult sociologists close to the article's populist controveries.

There is a way (saw this somewhere else) to identify what each junior homonym use of the article "cult" term means, by adding a superscript to each like: cult⁵, where each superscript number is keyed to a definition in the definitions listings, and more than one superscript can be used if necessary.

I can go along with explaining the definitions as long as they are laid out quoted first, which prevents POV drift of the explanation. This would be essentially an expansion of the specialized definition sections such as the #Definition of 'cult' according to secular opposition.

"low expectations" I see it as a pragmatic response to the general case of the specifically tendentious BabyDweezil debate above (particularly the Bonewitz-authority 'debate'). I think you would benefit from researching this topic's POV-warrier history, extending to off-site, and RFC/U or Arbcom, IIRC.

Please give regular editors here credit for understanding the special problems of a 'most controversial' article. A substantial number of well-educated editors post here, and each especially knows some aspect of this article. That includes the articulate NRM members who tell/edit how they experience being unfairly treated.

There exist issues rooted in this article, indirectly described by another editor, which could in actual practice take down the project. It would not be prudent to detail it further, but anyone willing to put in as much research as I have, and locate certain disturbing statistics on site, will figure it out. If you do, please keep it to yourself.

"raise our expectations" My raised expectations favor the collective intelligence of the editorial talent pool here over the lowest-common-denominator manual of style, which was not designed to proactively defend against a ... (ah, no point in attracting search attention). Milo 09:16, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'm a little perplexed in how to respond here. I'm definitely wanting to respect the work that's been done here; I think we also need to respect the ability of new editors to come in and improve the page, though. I'll set aside the idea of a new article for a now. You: I can go along with explaining the definitions as long as they are laid out quoted first, which prevents POV drift of the explanation. Ok, do you mean quoted in the long list, with all 18? I'm still trying to figure out exactly why you think that's going to inform people better than a clear and concise explanation of the necessary points. I mean, POV drift, is that not the constant concern with Wikipedia? To say we're going to try to stop that by simply quoting a large number of dictionaries rather than even trying to provide our own explanation doesn't seem like a viable idea. I'm looking for other options. Could we try coming up with a good summary that would make all the necessary points? If these are sourced to dictionaries along with other sources, I think the result would probably be at least as stable as what we have now. Mackan79 23:31, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Sure. I think what's going on here is an article styling controversy in the form versus function tradition. First, you are doing a job that needs to be done, much of it being in the role of the Hindu god Shiva. The work of Shiva is a thing to be endured, not enjoyed. Beware of the karma associated with playing that role.

To me your position is somewhat analogous to that of a "suit" in a talent production corporation, but the talent is unexpectedly an academic and minority religious community.

When I parse and sum all of your statements, what I hear you saying is that you are here to enforce the manual of style on this article. While you are saying polite things, your underlying position seems to be that Cult is nothing special, just another article, and it should be made to conform to style standards just the way all of the other articles you have edited have been made to conform. You may politely claim otherwise, but at the bottom line you seem to have little interest in the special functions of this article which have evolved due to its history. Therefore you constructively value form over function. You also think POV attacks can't be limited, more or less because other articles you've edited haven't been able to do so. Again Cult and its editors are nothing special, so if other articles can't, you can't either.

I, on the other hand, being perhaps philosophical talent, value form only up to point that it does not interfere with function.

I also think the Cult topics are exceptional in many ways. I've explained to you the global multifaction struggle for people's very souls being sampled here, particular POV attack methods experienced, the ways in which definitions are a key to limiting them, and even a bit about the delicate special case project situation here, yet you politely but persistently keep returning to what I hear as, 'Um, whatever, all that egghead philosophy and article history stuff doesn't matter, because other articles don't have 18 definitions featured in them'.

So, while your polite demeanor is appreciated by everyone, I hear you as having constructively joined a subset of the the WP:Deletionist faction here. If you have in fact made a decision that the 18 definitions shall be deleted, how do you plan to enforce your editorial will on the article? Milo 04:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Theological and Sociological terms

In my world religions class in college, the way I learned the sociological definition was that by definition any religion in its begining was called a cult by sociologists, with no negative connotations. For a Theological Cult, catholisism's veneration of the Virgin Mary was of course a major example, but it was also extended to include special veneration of any diety or saint from a group. Artemis of the Ephesians from Acts 19 was of course cited, as well as the popularity of Krishna among followers of various forms of Hinduism. DO you guys think we should make this clearer in the main entry?

There was another definition i was given, my memory is a big vague on it though, that references following of a specific non-divine being. I seem to remember that it implied that for exaple, those who admire the teachings of John Wesley, Martin Luther, John Calvin, etc, could reasonably be called cults - no negative conotation necesarily implied.

Alienburrito 19:50, 26 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito

[edit] Unrelated material

Looking through the article, I'm seeing a fair amount of material that people have drawn in but isn't directly about cults. This seems to be part of why the article is so long and scattered, but more importantly, a significant problem under WP:SYNTH. Here's a section I just removed: I'd suggest people either find sources discussing this in the context of cults, or it would have to go in another article. Mackan79 14:57, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Political partisans and closed-mindedness

Recent research reveals that political partisans ignore facts that contradict their own sense of reality, according to a report on research by Drew Westen, director of clinical psychology at Emory University^[1]

The test subjects on both sides of the political aisle reached totally biased conclusions by ignoring information that could not rationally be discounted, Westen and his colleagues say.

Then, with their minds made up, brain activity ceased in the areas that deal with negative emotions such as disgust. But activity spiked in the circuits involved in reward, a response similar to what addicts experience when they get a fix, Westen explained.

The study points to a total lack of reason in political decision-making.

"None of the circuits involved in conscious reasoning were particularly engaged," Westen said. "Essentially, it appears as if partisans twirl the cognitive kaleidoscope until they get the conclusions they want, and then they get massively reinforced for it, with the elimination of negative emotional states and activation of positive ones."

Notably absent were any increases in activation of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain most associated with reasoning.

Simply put, the emotional considerations overwhelm critical thinking. If anything, the rational part of the mind works to rationalize the emotional conclusion that was reached in advance. Thus, in the end, extremes in partisan politics form one of the bases for a "political cult", where rational thinking and discussion only takes place within narrow us-versus-them parameters, and where emotion-based assumptions and/or unquestioned ideological dogma dominate the political organization, facilitating the other questionable activities cited above and elsewhere.^{[original research?]}

[edit] Theological definition

Upon doing a google search, I saw that the material in the "Theological definition" appears to be taken directly from the New Catholic Encyclopedia.[3] That appears to have been published in 1910, and thus may not be a problem. Still, the material seems not particularly helpful, plus appears to be the topic that our disambiguation statement says we aren't covering in this article. Is it alright if we remove this section? Mackan79 23:50, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] proselitism of cults in 3rd world countries

Probably some cults are especialy active in 3rd world countries. More easy to convince people, who didn't long religios traditions.

[edit] Discrimination

Can someone provide a source for the "discrimination" category? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:38, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

• Religious Intolerance in Europe Today: Hearing Before the Commission on Security and Cooperation ...

edited by Alfonse M. D'Amato p46

• One-Sided Arguments: A Dialectical Analysis of Bias

By Douglas N. Walton p121

• Lynne Hume, ‘A Reappraisal of the term ‘Cult’ and consideration of ‘Danger Markers’ in Charismatic Religious Groups page 36

Sfacets 10:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Since those sources aren't online can you please quote from the passages where they cal cults discrimination? I'm not sure how the term applies. Do people in cults discriminate against those who aren't in them? I suppose they might. Even so, it doesn't seem like a logical category. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 15:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Are people discriminated because they are members of cults? I admit that this may happen in a few cases some countries, but I think this is an exception. Andries 23:06, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I think you might want to talk with members of organizations labeled as cults; I would be certain that you would find they "feel" discriminated against and you will find that that discrimination is found in every nation. The article itself has a section on discrimination. Who gets to call who a cult? That is one of the important things about this article. Some Baptists call the Catholic church a cult. Many Christians churches label The Chruch of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints a cult. That epithet is used for a reason; to belittle, deride, and discrimiate another group. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 23:19, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I was a member of a cult for 9 years. I did not feel discriminated. Andries 23:21, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

"epithet is used for a reason; to belittle, deride," Baptist and other Fundamentalist Counter-Cult 'calling who is a cult' is significantly different than you have suggested. It is a genuine theological dispute with the RCC, based on the fact that RCC considers church tradition as important as Biblical adherence. Work through the logic at Christian countercult movement and you'll see that it makes sense that RCC can be called a cult, as non-epithet and non-pejorative, using that theological definition. Maybe this point should be added to the article. Milo 07:42, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that you are confusing a pejorative label with discrimination. The article is in the category pejoratives,though there there many listed meanings of the word that are not pejorative. Andries 23:26, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Ultimately, it's not what we think that matters. What matters are the sources we can find that call cults "discrimination". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:33, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that the term discrimination means that member of cults are discriminated in business, by the governments, in court etc. I do not think tha this is very common in democratic countries. Andries 23:37, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

To use a pejorative is to discriminate. That the groups in question are targeted more than "mainstream" religions is certainly true - the very fact that they are referred to with the pejorative "cult" or "sect" is evidence of this. Please have a look at Groups_referred_to_as_cults_in_government_reports for example. Sfacets 23:40, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

"To use a pejorative is to discriminate. " According to whom? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, say you have two religious group, one large, the other small. Would you designate the larger one with a pejorative term? The discrimination therefore is in differenciating between larger and smaller groups, and only applying the pejorative to the smaller one. It's logical. Sfacets 00:22, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

"designate the larger one with a pejorative term?" Sure, take Catholics and Jews. Middle class mainstream white Protestants haven't spoken about Jews using pejoratives for many decades. But referring to Catholics using the mildly pejorative term "papists" ("adherents of the Pope") has been fairly common among many Protestants since the Reformation, at least up until Vatican II.

m-w.com — discrimination: "3 a : the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually b : prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment <racial discrimination>"

"differenciating between larger and smaller groups" Using the "b" definition, if one claimed there was such a thing as 'cult discrimination' (like not renting to cults), one is left in the difficult position of trying to explain how "cult discrimination" differs from "religious discrimination". Religious discrimination is not a cult-specific phenomenon, but maybe there is a reference that says groups referred to as cults get more than their share.

In practice, cults are usually reported as annoying neighbors somewhere else, across town or across the world. Most people only have a chance to meet face-to-face with one cult in a lifetime, if that. As a result, categorical discrimination against cults, plural, is hypothetical.

"Please have a look at Groups_referred_to_as_cults_in_government_reports" Ignoring the exceptional instances of controversial government actions, that article is about what governments did about groups that were doing anti-social things, typically exploiting members. That's not discrimination, that's law enforcement. Milo 07:42, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure, but aren't there three refereces above for this? You have indicated that you can not find them on the web, but that does not mean they do not exist. If we assume good faith that the references are legitimate, what is your position? --Storm Rider ^(talk) 00:29, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I've asked the editor who posted them to tell us what they say on the subject. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:04, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you have any references that state that there is no discrimination against members of groups identified as cults? --Storm Rider ^(talk) 15:09, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

No. However the burden of proof is on those who add information, not on those who remove it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:28, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Storm Rider (23:19) wrote: "The article itself has a section on discrimination" That section currently reads:

"A website affiliated with Adi Da Samraj † sees the activities of cult opponents as the exercise of prejudice and discrimination against them, and regards the use of the words "cult" and "cult leader" as similar to political or racial epithets.[51]"

† LOGRTAC listing Adidam (San Francisco Examiner archived at Rickross.com)

Reference 51 is the website http://www.firmstand.org and the relevant web page there is cult_myth.html titled Discrimination against Minority Religions.

I vetted the article reference text, which reads in part as follows:

"In the exercise of prejudice against religious minorities, the "cult" myth is used today as "Jim Crow" was used in discriminating against people of color."

That's it. It's a simple unsupported claim. No discrimination examples, no discrimination testimonials.

Indeed, the word "discrimination" isn't even mentioned again, as the article launches into a series of red herring distractions (h-word, n-word, McCarthyism, fear and loathing, detest avoid fear, "crime" in scare quotes, attacking by mainstream religions, oil or coal industry vs. alternative energy, back to n-word again). IMHO, as a high school English class essay, it would get a passing grade somewhere in the C range, mostly because of its skill at propaganda.

Storm Rider (23:19) wrote: "they "feel" discriminated against" I agree this is likely. The problem is just that, it appears to be a feeling of discrimination rather than a fact of discrimination. Such a feeling could develop along the lines of:

(hypothetical example of thought:) We read that African-Americans are disliked. We read that African-Americans are discriminated against because they are disliked. We read that cults are disliked, and our group has been called a cult. Therefore we must be discriminated against somewhere, even if we haven't noticed it locally, and as a consequence, we feel discriminated against.

Such a free-floating feeling of discrimination would be a valid statement of minority religion experience, but it would need a reliable source. Finding an actual example of discrimination might be easier to find – perhaps a landlord not renting a house to a known cult, because of the reputation of cults generally.

The web site itself appears to be an Adidam religious publisher, of which there is one associated with every denomination, sect, and faction of belief. Except when speaking about themselves (Adidam), Firmstand.org is not a reliable source for Wikipedia. A closer examination of this essay shows why reliable source is a sound policy.

Beyond the lack of support for the title claim of discrimination, the web essay engages in intellectual dishonesty of Orwellian-revisionist proportions by ignoring the secular public and media's legitimate fear due to the thousand-some suicide and murder victims of destructive cults.

This essay wants us to simply dismiss "incredible baggage that goes with words like "cult" and "cult leader" ", again comparing them to the n-word. Oh really? Let's see, African-Americans were called the n-word and lynched. Groups were called cults, but not lynched, while a group called a cult chemically-engineered the ultimate outrage of Aum Shinrikyo's nerve gas attack on random innocent victims in a Tokyo subway. Aum Shinrikyo still exists under a new name. Who among us can honestly say we wouldn't fear a tinge of fear, were we to take that exact same subway ride today?

Pardon, but this web essay offends me somewhat personally. At Talk:List of groups referred to as cults, I've taken more generic responsibility for my siblinghood's spawning of the Peoples Temple cult than this essay took for the many antisocial actions of "cult" and "cult leader" they airily defend, especially considering that Adi Da was sued (settled out of court) by some of his groups members for typical cultic abuses. Milo 09:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Here are a few references to consider:

1. Discrimination in France against members of groups identified as cults, See report on discrimination here.
2. The Foundation against Religious Intolerance, See here: a selection of articles on discrimination against New Religious Movements. I found this to reputable, which does contradict Milo's position above. I believe if you compared it to wikipeida standards for reputabel references it would qualify.
3. Discrimination against Wiccans, See here (This may not be appropriate; I don't know if Wicca is recognized as a cult or just another religion]
4. Numerous articles on the problems incurred by Scientology, See [here
5. Maryland Cult Task Force, See here, an article on various forms of discrimination against NRMs.
6. The brainwashing controversy and its discriminatory practices, See here
7. An experience of a Mormon child and the problems of having her religion respected, See here: this is a blog and should only be used as an example; given that it is not peer-reviewed it can not be used as a reference, but interesting.
8. Marburg Journal of Religion and discrimination against Scientology, See here

These are just a few that I found that support the concept that there is very real discrimination throughout the world in most, if not all, countries against groups identified as cults. The Scientologists have a vast number of articles written about discrimination against their group. I believe they could be used as references for the article to support discrmination.

I sensed a very real disconnect in an understanding between groups identified as cults and those that are dangerous cults. That is the problem with the term! It is used to label the dangerous and the benign and is why Sociologists reject the term in place of New Religious Movement. Unfortunately, religionists still prefer the pejorative term "cult" when discussing groups with beliefs different from their own; it maintains that wonderful taint of disdain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Storm Rider (talk • contribs) 10:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Theories about joining cults and NRMs

I removed this as POV, however Milo re-added it saying "rv - NRM recruitment/joining is central to the cult debate". It may be central, however how cults are related to the list by Jeffrey Hadden is not specified. Sfacets 08:10, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Prof. Hadden universally links "cult" and "New Religious Movement (NRM)" for the entire article in the intro's current reference [7 ]. There are some cases where "cult" and "NRM" are unrelated (e.g., political cult; fan cult), but by original design they were intended to be academic synonyms. Milo 09:01, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Hadden says he uses the term "NRM" to encompass both cults and sects.

• There are clearly proper occasions to use the concept "new religious movement." It is an appropriate overarching concept when discourse means to communicate information that would be true of both cults and sects. [4]

I don't know why Sfacets deleted that link. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:05, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Its a very weazly sort of word however. Awfully apologetic. Not saying don't use it, but just putting it out there. Duck Monster 11:26, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suspicious Cult Activities on Editorial -Cult-POV or CTPOV?

The last sentence on the definition looks like it was inserted in as follows: "but a negative connotation for new religious, extreme political, questionable therapeutic, and pyramidal business groups.[2] For this reason, most, if not all,- non-fan groups that are called cults reject this label."

Examine the logic here please, does it imply cults don't view themselves as cults, by whom? Cult leaders, multi-level marketing? Please comment and review. Be aware Wiki-editors as who may be want to skew public information on cults when doing general searches in the internet.

Please note the article on Cults needs to seriously improve, the overall tone strikes more of Creationwiki.org by written by Conservapedia.com religious hacks. View by constrasting their samples: http://www.conservapedia.com/Cult

--220.239.179.128 (talk) 02:33, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

"does it imply cults don't view themselves as cults" That is correct. With rare exceptions, only the leaders and members of fan-cults acknowledge themselves as cults, and that is how the article correctly reads in English.

"Wiki-editors as who may be want to skew public information on cults" Editors with every POV have worked on this controversial article. Hopefully, they have balanced each other to obtain as neutral an article as is possible. Because the topic is controversial, this article will never be considered satisfactory by all of its readers.

The Conservapedia.com Cult article is just a stub. It cannot be seriously compared to the long and heavily referenced Wikipedia article by tone or most other ways. Milo 06:04, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dictionary definitions

I am removing the dictionary definitions. Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Evilrhino (talk) 21:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Without the immutable dictionary definitions of eight-some homonyms all spelled c-u-l-t, as well as the substantial variations in describing each definition in two dialects of world English, it is not possible for a typically biased reader to understand this controversial subject from a neutral point of view. Learning additional definitions is recommended by both Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance and CultFAQ.org. Milo 07:27, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I see that you have reverted my deletion. I'm not sure I understand how a dictionary definition helps maintain a NPOV. Maybe you could provide some reasoning or a synopsis? I think that the information is redundant both internally, and with the rest of the article. This article is way too long, and I don't think anyone is going to read all of them.Evilrhino (talk) 16:12, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

←According to OCRT (as I accessed it a couple of years ago), most people grow up with only one definition of c-u-l-t learned from their family or the media, and it's too often a bigoted stereotype definition that promotes religious and cultural intolerance. That bigotry leads to Cult topics editorial disputes, where editors who hold a negative populist definition of cults meet actual members of new religious movements (and non-religious groups) referred to as cults in the media. These group members almost universally claim not to be members of a "cult", while other editors think they are, with both sides reflecting a wider cultural clash beyond Wikipedia. Therefore, a central feature of the article is a minority vs. majority cultural dispute over the meaning of c-u-l-t in the English language.

How is such a dispute to be mediated? Primarily, by quoting the authority of mainstream dictionary definitions. They have to be quotes because paraphrases would become skewed by POV editors. Yet, any one dictionary can be quibbled, because supposed "brainwashing" cults are unquestionably expert at manipulating language (as beneficially demonstrated by AA). Therefore, the collective weight of several mainstream dictionary definitions, plus the specialized academic and theological glossary definitions, proves what a c-u-l-t is by eight-some formal meanings. Without the immutably quoted dictionary definitions, there is no reference center from which to anchor a provably neutral point of view.

Since you have indirectly asked about this language dispute feature, it makes some sense to put it in the header of the dictionary definitions, but so far I've not wanted to add to the article length by doing so.

There does seem to be consensus that the article can be improved, but not that the article is necessarily too long for an officially controversial article — especially since the article was somewhat reduced in size last year. Some new editors make changes without understanding either the subject or the disputatious editorial culture that developed the article over a period of years. This can easily reopen old disputes, which no regular editor here wants to see happen.

Apparently some new editors don't even read the entire article, and may decide to shorten it because they get bored. Since there are perhaps five or six stridently held points of view cautiously expressed in the article, the problem is whose text material gets removed, merely so that the occasional passing editor won't get bored by the length? The article-length concerns of the passing editor are likely to remain secondary to, say, text obliquely referencing the disposition of immortal souls within the lineage of families.

The casual reader may well skip over and not read all the definitions. They are all there for the seriously studious reader, or those editors who decide to engage in POV disputing of the article. Those not willing to study all the definitions as the regular editors have, are less likely to engage in meritless POV disputes.

An additional set of dictionary definitions has been added since I last discussed this issue. It might be reasonable to examine the dictionary definitions and remove the least authoritative, or least comprehensive, American dictionary quote, if all the dictionary meanings are covered by the other dictionary quotations. Milo 21:20, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the dictionary defintions are helpful. The spirit of the policy of Wikipedia:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_dictionary is that an article is not a mere dictionary definition. Andries (talk) 18:39, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Scientology

I'm not contesting that this belongs on the cult page, but it does not belong in the opening paragraphs describing what a cult is. Could someone fix this up? Fllmtlchcb (talk) 07:16, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I just deleted it from the See also section because it is obvious POV...no other single orgonization was on the list but somehow Scientology out ranked the "cultness" of Heavens Gate, the Waco Branch Dividians, Jonestown, Coach purce culture, Star Wars Culture, That crazy group in Russia who locked themselves in a cave, Mormons, Jahova Witnesses, and Dungeons and Dragons (TSR version). The point is, it is already listed on the "list of cults" page which is extensive, and unless we start transcribing that entire list we really shouldn't single out a single orgonization.Coffeepusher (talk) 07:52, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Alcoholics Anonymous

Coffeepusher added some text with a citation that may be scientifically incompatible with the article, but in a way that's difficult to sort out. I've removed it to here for discussion:

And Kevin [Wright], in a study of several members, concluded that although the [Lifton] techniques [were] present in the Alexander and Rollins study, the conclusion that AA was a cult was erroneous because AA bore little semblence to religious cults because the techniques appeared beneficial in AA.[6]^ Wright, K[B] (1997) "Shared Ideology in Alcoholics Anonymous: A Grounded Theory Approach". Journal of Health Communication, Volume 2, pp. 83–99

First, a quote from the Wright (1997) PubMed abstract reads, "Little support was found for Alexander and Rollins's (1984) comparison of AA to religious cults." which is not the same as "erroneous", though I don't yet know whether "erroneous" appeared in Wright's 1997 full text.
Second, as paraphrased by Coffeepusher, Wright seems to be saying that Alexander and Rollins must be wrong about AA being a cult even though AA met Lifton's criteria, apparently because Wright assumes cults are inherently non-beneficial? Such an assumption would require a vague negative populist definition of "cult", which I think is not compatible with a scientific definition.
It seems to me that a full text of Wright, 1997 is needed for study before deciding whether to cite it in this article. Milo 07:54, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

That section was in the paragraph that talked about how even though we can come up with charictoristics of a cult, we find it hard to actually define what a cult is. The kea part was that although lifton's techniques where present, does that make somthing a cult? what we had was two scientific studies that came up with the same data and concluded two opposite results as to wither somthing was a cult. it is a better addition than other study, because that study dosn't mention Rollins or cults at all and thus is WP:SYNTH. You can change the word Eronious, that was my paraphrase, and although I believe it was fathfull to the origonal text, I am not married to that word.Coffeepusher (talk) 16:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you have the full text of Wright, 1997? Milo 18:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I usually have access to that databace...except for today it is gliching out a bit. the section spacificly referencing Rollins is small enough that I could post it here, once I get access. I should have that by later tonight or tomorow.Coffeepusher (talk) 18:51, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, here is the sectons dealing with the report itself:

• 1. Summery of prior reserch

"Alexander and Rollins (1984) examined what they considered to be the somewhat negative role of AA ideology in their study of AA as a cult. The authors identified eight of Lifton's (1961) thought reform techniques in the AA group's indoctrination methodology. The eight techniques were ranked in order of their observed frequency of occurrence. The authors argued that members' references to a "higher power" represented Lifton's technique of "mystical manipulation" (Alexander & Rollins, 1984, p. 34). This was the most frequently reported thought reform technique. Second was the reported control over members' contacts outside of the AA group. Third was a technique described as "love bombing," or the apparent unconditional love offered by the AA group members. Finally, the authors argued that AA members reexamined their personal histories and reinterpreted life events in the light of the group's ideology."

• 2. Conclusion

"Finally, Alexander and Rollins's (1984) findings that AA uses techniques similar to those in cults was given only limited support by the data. Although the techniques suggested by those authors do exist, they appear to be constructive, because they enable AA members to make drastic improvements in their lives. Many of the techniques that Alexander and Rollins considered negative were found to be interpreted positively by AA members."

I can get you the full text, but that is pritty much the sections that deal with the 1984 study.Coffeepusher (talk) 21:39, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the Wright 1997 relevant text, that's helpful.

But two key questions aren't answered by this excerpt of Wright:

(1) Did sociologists Alexander and Rollins create the scientific definition of "cult" they used (based on Lifton's list), or did they modify one originally created by Lifton which was accompanied by a discussion of cults?

(2) Did Alexander and Rollins include such terms as "negative" (or positive) and "constructive" (or not) in their definition of "cult"? Or did they identify AA as a "cult" based on the defined list of thought reform techniques, and then separately conclude that AA was a negative influence on its members, by offering evidence per Lifton that all thought reform techniques are a negative influence?

The best way to accurately context Wright's conclusions is to answer these questions by studying the full text of Alexander and Rollins, 1984.

Does your available database have Alexander and Rollins in California Sociologist of 1984? Milo 17:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

no, I have been serching but can't get ahold of it. I will probably do an inner library and see what I can find (sorry for the delay, real life takes presidence over third life)Coffeepusher (talk) 19:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I may have located a copy, but will have to wait some days to know for sure. Milo 07:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I now have a copy of Alexander and Rollins, 1984, but analysis is going to take awhile. Milo 00:56, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Claim of POV text in sociology section

[Cult‎] 20:34, 16 March 2008 Coffeepusher (Sociological definitions of religion: removed pov section...used words like "could be a cult"...no referance to back up statements)

Coffeepusher deleted the bolded section in the following article context:

"As set out by Stark and Bainbridge, the term "cult", is used distinctly among the general definitions, and is closely related to the historically changed definitions of "sect." In this contemporary view, a "sect" is specifically "a deviant religious organization with traditional beliefs and practices," as compared to a "cult" which indicates a "a deviant religious organization with novel beliefs and practices."[22] ¶ Since this definition of "cult" is defined in part in terms of tension with the surrounding society, the same group may both be and not a cult at different places or times. For example, Christianity was by this definition a cult in 1st and 2nd century Rome, while in fifth century Rome it became rather an ecclesia (the state religion). Similarly, very conservative Islam could constitute a cult in the West but also the ecclesia in some conservative Muslim countries. Likewise, because novelty of beliefs and tension are elements in the definition: the Hare Krishnas are not a cult but a sect in India (since their beliefs are largely traditional to Hindu culture), while they are by this definition a cult in the Western world (since their beliefs are largely novel to Christian culture). There is a current dispute as to whether scientology is a cult."

I have updated the stale Prof. Jeffery K. Hadden link [22], and added his text and full citation of Stark and Bainbridge:

"CHURCH: a conventional religious organization."

"SECT: a deviant religious organization with traditional beliefs and practices."

"CULT: a deviant religious organization with novel beliefs and practices."

[Hadden cites] Stark and Bainbridge, 1987:[p]124; (1987:124 full citation: Stark, Rodney, and William Sims Bainbridge, 1987. A Theory of Religion. New York: Peter Land. [Reprinted, 1996 by Rutgers University Press])"

I've read over the deleted text. It appears to be sociologically correct, and therefore is not obviously POV. "Could" is not an arbitrary speculation; it's a clear reference to the sociological context of cultural tension existing or not.
Since I can't find anything wrong with the deleted text, I've restored it to the article pending outcome of this discussion.
What are the details of your objection? Milo 00:56, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

highlighting a single sect with the blanket term "could..." and then giving unreferanced examples that obviously come from WP:OR is POV by definition. I have no problem with this section if it is referanced properly, however right now I don't feel like it belongs. There is also a current dispute on weather the Assembily of God is a cult...also the southern baptists...AA...NA...Rush Limbaugh (no really, it is going on)... so without referances anyone can put a pov into this section under the guise of "could".Coffeepusher (talk) 13:42, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Coffeepusher (13:42): "... giving unreferanced examples that obviously come from WP:OR is POV by definition."

I've read WP:OR, and I don't see that definition. Please provide the quote to which you are referring.

My reading is that WP:OR is silent on the referencing of examples, although it is clear that all text including examples must fit closely to the references. Therefore, what appropriate examples to choose is currently an editorial decision.

Examples are important for the reader to understand abstract concepts. WP:OR makes that point indirectly by using examples no less than six times.

Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism (represented by Hare Krishnas) are prominent examples, and certainly by using all of them no one can claim bias toward one or another.

However, the example of Scientology is not an example of the point under discussion. The other three examples are traditional in one culture but not another. Scientology is traditional in no culture; therefore I propose deleting that sentence.

Coffeepusher (13:42): "with the blanket term "could...""

First, note that "could" and "may" are used interchangeably. Since you removed "could", but not "may", your argument isn't parallel. And if you did remove "may", you would be removing a concept. This shows that the concept and the examples are tightly integrated, as they should be.

Second, I disagree with your assertion that "could" has a blanket effect on the concept. As stated, the church-sect-cult concept is narrowly delimited by culture, tradition, and tension. Sociology is a soft science, so while the concept is more likely than not, "could" acknowledges an inevitable ability to quibble exceptions.

Third, it's true that anyone can insert another example which fits the sociological "could" facts. But that's not a POV (which would be arbitrary). There also don't seem to be many valid examples left, and if so, it's likely to be a non-problem. Milo 03:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I could probably try and tackle each point in turn, but then I would just be being argumentitive(...and probably wrong) because in reading this I realise that I was wrong in my deletion and for whatever reason didn't come to understand the context of the section as a whole and now I undersand the reason for the example and why it should stand...except the scientology referance which I will note in a second...I would like to see referances if avalible, just because I believe everything should be referanced on wikipedia if possable (personal philosophy).

I do think that the Scientology quote should be removed. that was what triggered my blanket "POV rant" (in hindsight). If anyone would care to hear me elaberate I will, but I don't really see the reason for that narritive at this time.Coffeepusher (talk) 04:10, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sexual gratification and cult leaders

I reverted the edit by Milo regarding Joseph Smith. What Joseph Smith taught is plural marriage. The problem with the edit is that there is no evidence that Joseph ever slept with any of the women he was sealed to. The concept of sealing is different from marrying or the concept of polygamy practiced by Brigham Young and later prophets of the LDS church.

Considerable sums of money, over $100,000 in one case, have been expended attempting to prove there was some progeny from at least one of Smith sealings. The edit also did not share the rest of the story in that some of the women sealed to Joseph were older than he was. In addition, men were sealed to Joseph Smith also. It is a concept of eternal family and not sexual relationships that is significant here. Unless someone has a deeper understanding of LDS history, certainly more than you find on anti-Mormon websites, this area is much more convoluted and complex than this simple allegation. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 19:40, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Milo, do you think you might be mixing wholly different things? Your recent edit is stretching to meet your agenda, rather than being NPOV. If this is how we are going to treat things then Muslims who practice polygamy will have to be included. You will also have to include all of the religious groups in Africa that practice polygamy. You are out on a ledge and it is all sand beneath you. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 20:10, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

If Joseph Smith, Jr. used either the terms "marriage" or "wives" in reference to his women, and assuming that the numerical facts are correct, I've fixed it with:

=== Sexual gratification or plural marriage by leaders ===

Leaders of groups referred to as cults have used their positions to obtain sexual gratification from followers, or have engaged in plural marriage.

* Joseph Smith, Jr. (1805-1844), founder of LDS, convinced his followers that polygamy was necessary and began to marry women. He eventually married 24 women, one third of them younger than age 18, and some as young as 14. LDS officially ceased polygamy in 1890, and excommunicates members who practice it. Some non-LDS schism churches who also claim founding by Joseph Smith, Jr. (see Mormon fundamentalism), have continued the practice of polygamy with underage women, and have been called cults in the media.

The point is about Mormon fundamentalists, who apparently claim their plural marriage practices arise from founder Joseph Smith, Jr., and specifically about underage marriages arranged by cult(s) as named in the media. The post-1890 LDS mainstream, as well as global polygamy with culturally of-age women in other countries, is not at issue.

In the USA last week, 400 underage women/girls were seized from FLDS in Texas and placed in foster homes. This follows the headline conviction of Warren Jeffs leader of FLDS (ABC News called it a cult), for unpleasantly named crimes involving underage women, with very serious penalties – apparently directly traceable to the teachings and actions of Joseph Smith, Jr. If that's factual, using the standard dictionary definitions of the words "marriage" or "wives", it belongs in this encyclopedia. Milo 20:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC) Re-edited 21:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I suspected you were reacting from current events rather than an understanding of the topic or history. Joseph Smith was sealed to women. Let me repeat what I said above; THERE IS NO HISTORIAL EVIDENCE THAT HE HAD SEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS WITH ANY WOMAN EXCEPT HIS FIRST WIFE, EMMA. One woman who alleged she was a descendant of Joseph Smith has spent of $100,000 attempting to prove through DNA analysis that her claim was legitimate. However, there has been no support for her claim. Joseph Smith did teach plural marriage, but the teaching was not fully realized until Brigham Young lead the LDS church. I.E. Men began to have marital relationships with more than one wife.

In LDS history a younger women being married was the exception. A problem in early LDS history was that Mormon men had a tendency of being killed by their favorite local Christian mobs; which left a lot of women as widows. Most of those widows became the plural wives of men. These were more often than not caretaker relationships. I have heard estimates as low as 3% to as high as 30% of the membership (men and women) practiced plural marriage up until 1890. Thereafter the practice of plural marriage was discontinued. Sealing is not the same thing as living in a full, marital relationship. They don't always equate and one needs to be careful.

Your topic is sexual gratification, which has nothing to do with polygamy. None of the people you have listed practiced anything similar to polygamy. Each situation was pure devotion to sexual gratification only. A polygamist's primary objective is to produce children. Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses, Solomon, and Daniel were all polygamists. Was there primary objective sexual gratification? Of course not! You are stretching the boundaries of the topic to meet your POV and the yammerings of news people who don't have a clue about polygamy or history. Their sole objective is to sell air time.

More importantly, the current event is happening and it is not finished. When you see that the first buses to arrive on the scene had the name "First Baptist Church" plastered on the front of them, one must realize that something stinks in Denmark. 416 children (boys and girls) were taken from the ranch. Not one case of sexual abuse has been produced yet and the star witness is not to be found. The man accused of the sexual abuse has not been in Texas in years (pretty tough to abuse someone on a ranch in Texas when you have lived in Arizona for the last three years. Two years ago Texas changed the legal age from 14 to 16 to get married; who in the heck was getting married at 14 in Texas prior to arrival of the FLDS. Not one 14 year old has yet been identified in court and the only girls talked about were of legal age for marriage. Let's wait until this story is finished before we start writing it as a factual.

Also, usually when an edit is disputed it is discussed on the discussion page until a compromise has been achieved. No compromise has begun to materialize. Please do not continue to edit this section of the article until a compromise is produced. It causes senseless edit wars and that are unnecessary. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 08:50, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Could someone else please sort through and explain the editing history facts to Storm Rider so we can get back on the new topic without the distractions? Milo 15:18, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I would greatly appreciate it because attempting to interact with Milo would appear...unnfruitful. The main problem is that there has been zero discussion, zero attempt by Milo to explain herself; just a consistent display of ownership and insistence on having it her way. If one can be so kind as to simply explain the logic for the proposed edits. Particularly how one has sexual gratification with no sexual relationship. Also, the concept of numerous sexual relationships obtained through manipulation and deceit versus the concept of plural marriage where the commitment is viewed as eternal and focused on progeny. Please just stick to "facts" as indicated by Milo and distinguish between ignorance of historical facts and media stupidity. This would be very helpful. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 20:53, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I have done extensive studies on Mormonism, the fact that it could not be proven in court that Joseph Smith had sex is irrelevant, since many woman claimed they had his children. That alone is an admission of sexual intercourse. Brigham Young later confirmed the sexuality of Josephs wives since they openly accepted him and had his children. The problem with Joseph Smith is that he repeatedly lied to his congregation about living polygamy, he hid it, and even spoke against it and denounced it while his wives listened in the audience. Joseph Smith is a statistical average in cult leadership, he certainly gained the sexual advantages, including an affair that Emma had caught him in with their 14 year old maid. See In Sacred Loneliness by Todd Compton. In fact, sex is a normal, healthy and normal part of life, but it can indeed be abused such as when it is inconsistent with what the leader is teaching and the members hold to as part of that teaching, a hypocrisy in this case. Preceeding signed by: Bnaur Talk 03:43, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I am glad that you have done extensive research on Mormonism; I am sure that you are an expert. Allegations have never been equated to fact in the history of American law or in other civil society that has ever existed in the history of the world, much to the dismay of those making unfounded allegations. What is significant of about this claim is the one woman who made a statement near her death that her child was from a union with Joseph Smith was proved wrong through DNA research. Whether she had sex with Joseph Smith or not is anyone's guess.

Bushman, the noted historian from Columbia (but also a LDS) has stated that one may assume that Smith must have had sex with some of these women, but it remains conjecture including Compton's research. The difficulty with these allegations is that science, so often used to prove religion false, in this instance, to this date, confirms that there are no other children of Joseph Smith outside of Emma's. There is no evidence that Joseph Smith had sex with anyone other than Emma Hale Smith, his wife and mother of his children. There is ample allegation, innuendo, and other comparable statements. Now, if you are asking me for a personal opinion, I suspect that Smith had sexual relations with some of the women sealed to him, but not all. Sealing, during the life of Smith, was different than plural marriage. Of course, with you expertise I am sure you are aware of this and possibly forgot.

Polygamy, or more appropriately plural marriage, did not become fully practiced, i.e. actual marriage with more than one wife and living in full relationship, did not really function until Brigham Young became the leader of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have read a range from as low as 3% of the members to as high as 30% of the members practiced plural marriage prior to 1890.

My position remains as I have stated above; there is nothing in common with the practice of plural marriage/polygamy as practiced by Mormons, Muslims, Indians, or any other group in the history of the world and what is being called sexual manipulation and gratification by cult leaders. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 04:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Let's do be careful to stay on track, avoid polemic interpretations or moral judgments, and focus on facts for reliable source referencing of the text which was originally entered by 209.128.98.90 on 06:53, 13 April 2008.

The issue is not Smith as the founder of LDS, it's Joseph Smith, Jr. as the claimed founder of FLDS and other Mormon fundamentalists, who unlike LDS, still practice what they say Smith practiced – plural marraige with sexual relations.

There is no need to debate about whether Smith might not been married in the full sense of the word or might have had polygamous sex. Smith's same-faith religious contemporaries say that he was fully plural married (Compton, Summer 1996, p16), "sealing" also meant "marriage" (p31), and included sexual relations (p31), he had ample opportunities for sex (p16-17), and did have actual carnal intercourse (p16).

This is no anti-Mormon screed, rather, it's a set of long-established facts still embarrassing to one schism of Mormonism.

"Because of claims by Reorganized Latter-day Saints that Joseph was not really married polygamously in the full (i.e., sexual) sense of the term, Utah Mormons (including Joseph's wives) affirmed repeatedly that Joseph had physical sexual relations with his plural wives..." (Compton, Summer 1996, p16).

Wife (~#32 of Sep. 20, 1843 per Compton) 'Melissa Lott (Smith Willes) testified that she had been Joseph's wife "in very deed" ' . Despite the unresearched mythical claim in the above post (08:50, 18 April 2008), there is direct and starkly unambiguous courtroom testimony by Joseph Smith, Jr.'s wife Emily Dow Partridge, (wife ~#24 of March 4, 1843 per Compton), who in the Temple Lot case of 1891 testified under oath 'that she "roomed" with Joseph and had "carnal intercourse" with him' (Compton, p.16). That's the "smoking gun" reference, but there's exhaustively more evidence for anyone willing to accept the academically-documented facts.

You can access this journal on line at Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Compton, Todd (Summer 1996), A Trajectory of Plurality; An Overview of Joseph Smith's Thirty-three Plural Wives. See section Sex in Joseph Smith's Marraiges, p.16. Milo 07:39, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] B I T E

I am not sure that BITE has become the recognized model in mental health. Is there a reason that this has now become highlighted versus all the other models that exist today? It seems out of balance to me. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 05:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Raelian sessions invited or required?

Bnaur made an edit which does not match the cited reference. This entry is BLP sensitive, so uninformed reverting is not appropriate. Showing Bnaur's edit, Cult reads:
"Raelism openly teaches a belief in sexual freedom, which is used to recruit new members, who are required invited to participate in Sensual Meditation sessions. {ref} Sex used to recruit Raelians The Edmonton Sun - 2003-10-11."{/ref} (Currently reference [77])
23:56, 3 May 2008 Bnaur (?Sexual gratification or plural marriage by leaders: require to invites) diff

The relevant sentence in The Edmonton Sun, October 11, 2003 reads:
"There are mandatory sensual meditation sessions in which a "guide" instructs Raelian members how to..."

"Mandatory" means "required". What information do you have that conflicts with The Edmonton Sun's report? Milo 04:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sexual gratification and plural marriage

I am moving David Koresh's information here:

"* David Koresh (1959-1993), one leader of the Branch Davidians, announced to his followers that polygamy was allowed for him, and preached that he was entitled to 140 wives, sixty women as his "queens" and eighty as concubines. He fathered children with several women and girls at his Waco Texas compound, including girls as young as 12.^{[citation needed]}"

Though it needs references, which I assume are forthcoming, I am more concerned about painting Koresh with the same brush stroke as the others. The practice of polygamy has been practiced since almost the beginning of Judaism and is practiced today by several cultures. U.S. social mores may denigrate the practice, but that is meaningless on the world stage. The major objective of polygamy has always been to produce offspring and not the d'alliances found in the sexual exploits of the other characters cited in the section. Further, polygamy came with the social contract of providing care and financial and emotional support, which is totally lacking among the others. If you want to cite groups that practice polygamy, that is another matter, but it is not the equivalent of irresponsible sexual exploits of the other individuals. The section was erroneously expanded to meet an editor's agenda, rather than a well-thought out format for the article. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 02:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I would strongly encourage you to avoid speculation on anothers perceved agenda no matter how much evidance you may have, it makes your argument appear to be a personal despute rather than a content despute.

Right now you are claiming that Polygamy is not a sexual exploitive practice (I agree) that was used historically to procreate (I agree) and to form aliances and help support women (I agree)and you argue that these principals where the foundation for the decision of David Koresh to state that he could have 140 wives, while his followers where not allowed to practice polygamy (I strongly disagree). I personaly think that it does belong in the article because the practice by David Koresh was seperate from the origional precepts of the Branch Davidians and somthing reserved for him and him alone. this follows the introduction of this section as an explotive practice because it wasn't used for either material or emotional support (they lived in a comune, thus the practice of a man defending women is null unless the comune breaks apart) and I don't buy it was to produce more children. it needs a citation, but I think it belongs.Coffeepusher (talk) 02:50, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I have reworked the entery to make clear that David Koresh was not engaging in any form of traditional Polygamy. it is cited as well (time magazine and USA today)Coffeepusher (talk) 03:20, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Koresh is not in my area of expertise whereas polygamy is. When one introduces concubines it certainly becomes unusual. What maybe helpful, though not for his article, is to attempt to understand what justification he gave for this practice. There ususally is an element of raising righteous seed, which in turn is based upon some belief of being a chosen people. Of course, Koresh did not appear to set up community mores for all, but rather something centered soley upon him. Nothing in my reading of him talked about formal marriages ceremonies, but just "we get to have sex together". That is not a typical form of polygamy. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 07:45, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I have a better than average knowledge of the Waco Siege, as well as a friend who has closely (and sympathetically) studied Branch Davidians' theology. I've tweaked Coffeepusher's usefully researched post into main and footnote entries, which give a balance of Koresh's views with mainstream views, and approximate the size of the other main entries.

I've also added a line to the section intro to distinguish traditional polygamous cultures from those of groups referred to as cults. Milo 10:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Plural marriage by leaders

Storm Rider made the following change edit:

19:05, 18 May 2008 Storm Rider (correcting section title)

=== Sexual gratification or plural marriage by leaders ===

to

=== Sexual gratification by leaders ===

This section title edit has the unacceptable effect of suppressing a front-page-notable topic in Wikipedia: cultic plural marriage. Accordingly, I have reverted it.

Storm Rider also made the following removal edits:

19:02, 18 May 2008 Storm Rider (Sexual gratification or plural marriage by leaders: there is nothing comprable in these individuals and plural marriage) (diff)

19:05, 18 May 2008 Storm Rider (Sexual gratification or plural marriage by leaders: cleaning up) (diff)

Hereticpod (18:01, 18 May 2008), with no edit summary explanation, changed the Joseph Smith, Jr entry which was:

* [[Joseph Smith, Jr.]] (1805-1844), founder of [[LDS]], was confidentially married to 33 plural wives, with some as young as 14.<ref>Smith's same-faith religious contemporaries said that he was fully plural married (p. 16), "sealing" also meant "marriage" (p. 31), and included sexual relations (p. 31). Joseph Smith, Jr.'s wife Emily Dow Partridge, (wife ~#24 of March 4, 1843 per Compton), in the [[Temple Lot]] case of 1891, testified under oath '' 'that she "roomed" with Joseph and had "carnal intercourse" with him' ''(Compton, Summer 1996, p. 16). [http://content.lib.utah.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/dialogue&CISOPTR=11460&REC=12&CISOSHOW=11268 Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Compton, Todd (Summer 1996), A Trajectory of Plurality; An Overview of Joseph Smith's Thirty-three Plural Wives]. See section ''<u>Sex in Joseph Smith's Marriages</u>.''</ref> LDS officially ceased polygamy in 1890, and excommunicates members who practice it. Some non-LDS schism churches who also claim founding by Joseph Smith, Jr., including [[FLDS]], have continued the practice of polygamy with legally underage women (see [[Mormon fundamentalism]]).

to:

"confidentially rumored to have married to 33 plural wives, with some as young as 14 , however this c[a]nnot be confirmed."

Hereticpod apparently failed to read the footnote source in the reference, since journaled research is not a rumor. Compton's journal research is unequivocally titled: Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Compton, Todd (Summer 1996), A Trajectory of Plurality; An Overview of Joseph Smith's Thirty-three Plural Wives. This is verified information which is the Wikipedia equivalent of "confirmed". Compton also lists Helen Mar Kimball, at age 14, married May, 1843, as wife ~#26 to Joseph Smith, Jr.

SR removed the entry on Joseph Smith, Jr., the claimed founder of FLDS, a group that has been front page news for months for practicing polygamy with legally underage women. ABC evening news called FLDS a cult. Last Friday, 2008-05-16, ABC's 20/20 documented the story of the unwilling underage bride who was forced by convicted FLDS leader Warren Jeffs into a plural marriage with an older member, and then transferred like property into a second marriage with unconsensual sex by a younger man.
It is a verifiable and scholarly fact that FLDS (and other Mormon fundamentalist groups, practice plural marriage because Joseph Smith, Jr. confidentially taught and practiced it himself (see Talk:Cult#Sexual gratification and cult leaders above for reliable sources).

Storm Rider (19:02, 18 May 2008) edit summary: "...nothing comprable in these individuals and plural marriage"
This seems to be an unsupported opinion. In comparison:

• Joseph Smith, Jr. engaged in plural marriage.
• David Koresh engaged in plural marriage.
• Individuals in FLDS engaged in plural marriage.
• All engaged in plural marriages that were not traditional to the culture outside of the group.
• All belonged to groups that have been referred to as cults.

Accordingly, I have restored the Joseph Smith, Jr. / FLDS entry. Milo 02:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC) Re-edited 04:32, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe it would be incorrect to say that Joseph Smith, Jr. was the founder of the FLDS Church. It appears that is was founded almost 100 years after his death by those that selected some of his teachings, made some changes, and then founded their own church. Alanraywiki (talk) 02:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Your point is historical/sociological. The article phrase used is "claimed founder", meaning, as I understand it, FLDS and other Mormon fundamentalists claim Smith as their founder – but please post links to sources that state otherwise. In any case, the key is that FLDS/others today follow the relevant inner circle teachings and practice of Joseph Smith, Jr.

Religious fundamentalism (of all religions) usually means that they, fundamentalists, claim that that the mainstream church/belief has deviated from the fundamental teachings of the original founder, and therefore they, not the mainstream group, are the true original church/belief. If fundamentalists were to claim a (second) founding as sociologists do from the branching date, that undercuts their claim to be the original church, so it would be unexpected. Milo 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Here is an FLDS "about themselves"-type reliable source (FLDS magazine "TRUTH", 1950's) that lists Joseph Smith (Jr.) as first in the line of authority: "Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, John Woolley, Lorin Woolley, Leslie Broadbent, Joseph Musser, and Charles Zitting."[5] While the citing source is a personal blog specializing in "information about the basic teachings and history of the FLDS Church", it can be convenience-linked to show the cited reliable source for the list. Milo 04:32, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

It is interesting what you call opinion. What you (whoever who insists on this edit) have done is synthesis. There is nothing remotely in common between Koresh's concept of polygamy and Smith's teaching of plural marriage. Second, you seem to be confusing the term culture. It was the culture of early Mormonism to practice plural marriage. It's purpose was not for sexual gratification which is the topic of the section. Third, the FLDS is a sect of the LDS church and Joseph Smith is not the founder of their church. Fifth, please explain your definition of cult. The LDS church has existed since 1830 (well beyond the 50 year time frame of the defintion of cults) and Smith died in the 1840's again, not within the cult time frame. I am removing the information for violation of synthesis. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 03:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

The more I read these comments the more I think no one knows what they are talking about. The prophet most of these guys follow is Brigham Young, which really discussed and defended plural marriage in the Latter Day Saint movement.

Furthermore, there is nothing in common between plural marriage or polygamy and a pack of fornicating individuals. That is pure synthesis and cultural arrogance to the extreme. Polygamy has been practiced in civialized society for as long as history has existed. Please leave your personal puritanical views at the door; welcome to an encyclopedia that is for a world audience. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 03:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Storm Rider (03:32): "nothing remotely in common between Koresh's concept of polygamy and Smith's teaching of plural marriage."

The in-common fact is clear. Koresh and Smith both engaged in "plural marriages that were not traditional to the culture outside of the group." Nothing more in common is needed for the article entry.

Storm Rider (03:32): "culture of early Mormonism to practice plural marriage"

Early Mormonism plural marriages were "not traditional to the culture outside of the group."

Storm Rider (03:32): "definition of cult" ...."50 year time frame"

Check the article - other than old cults of veneration (cultus), it's 1920 onward per Melton. (50 years is a LOGRTAC list criterion that doesn't affect Cult.)

Storm Rider (03:32): "Joseph Smith is not the founder of their church."

See my above post responding to Alanraywiki.

Storm Rider (03:32): "The prophet most of these guys follow is Brigham Young."

Please post your sources for this claim in regard to FLDS.

Storm Rider (03:32): "synthesis"

You can't simply make a unsupported synthesis claim and make an article statement disappear. You have to list the facts that you claim are synthesized, read and analyze the sources referenced, provide quotes, and make a series of logical statements about them to show that the references don't support the synthesized article facts. A synthesis claim takes lot of academic-style research work to prove, so if you can't do that work you will have to accept the article statements as being properly referenced.

Storm Rider (03:32): "sexual gratification which is the topic of the section."

This issue has already been settled. The topic also covers plural marriage. The text was originally entered by 209.128.98.90 on 06:53, 13 April 2008. 209.128.98.90 did not choose a section title which covered his two plural marriage entries. You complained about the (excessively narrow) section topic on 19:33, 17 April 2008 and I corrected the section title at Milo 19:48, 17 April 2008. Now you are reverting the title back to the too-narrow title that you complained about and was fixed. This is tendentious editing not permitted at Wikpedia. Please stop.

What you are doing in effect is claiming that because 209.128.98.90 didn't provide a set of entries with a section title that perfectly matched them, that some of those entries have to be removed rather than the title being adjusted to the entries. That is constructively (by actions) wikilawyering (attempting to trump principle with detail).

Both sexual gratification and plural marriage are not only notable to this article, but front-page-notable, week after week in the current news. Attempting to suppress relevant article entries and section titles with front page news notability is unacceptable. Please move on. Milo 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

What a wonderfully creative of looking at things. The section topic was sexual gratification. Every entry except Koresh and Smith were accounts of the exploits of men who did nothing but fornicate. There is nothing in common with fornication and plural marriage. To enlarge the title is not acceptable and never has been. It allows a highly POV position to force readers to assume that fornication and plural marriage are the same things. Your solution was irresponsible and POV; it amounts to synthesis.

Upon further review of Koresh's article it appears it may be possible to put him in this category; He reserved the practice to himself and had concubines. Smith's concept of plural marriage was taught as a principle for all to follow. It was a principle that he resisted following for most of his life as leader of the church. Most of the "wives" he had were only sealed to him and there is no evidence that he had sexual relations with them. None have been proved to ever have had sexual relations, but there is certainly historical evidence that leads us to believe he may have had sexual relations with at least a few of them. It is more innuendo than open fact, which is what was found under Brigham Young. It is open and children were the result of the marriages.

I can see a section entitled "Leaders who taught polygamy/plural marriage", but the current title is not acceptable. Plural marriage was never taught or characterized as something for sex except by other religious polemic writers. Plural marriage was fully realized under Brigham Young and it was a marriage in every sense of the word. It was not the one night stand and sexual dalliances of the other individuals in the current section. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 16:36, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll try to substantially summarize your editing positions and their logical fallacies:

1. Storm Rider (16:36): "The section topic was sexual gratification."

You ignore that 209.128.98.90's section entries were 1/3 2/5ths plural marriage related. (Note: 2/5ths counts Koresh as having engaged in plural marriage, which Storm Rider 07:01, 20 May 2008 disputes)

2. Storm Rider (16:36): "To enlarge the title is not acceptable and never has been."

You refuse to allow editing of 209.128.98.90's section title to more completely describe the section contents.

3. Storm Rider (16:36): "There is nothing in common with fornication and plural marriage."

You gloss over that sexual gratification and plural marriage have sex in common.

4. Storm Rider (16:36): "...force readers to assume that fornication and plural marriage are the same things."

You assume that Wikipedia readers are too stupid or confused to understand the meaning of "or" in a section title, or to distinguish sexual gratification from plural marriage.

5. Storm Rider (16:36): "it amounts to synthesis"

Your claim amounts to a claim that WP:Synthesis says something that it does not; there is no synthesis here because there is no stated opinion or conclusion at all.

6.Storm Rider (16:36): "Plural marriage was never taught or characterized as something for sex...".

You suggest a strawman because the section and title do not say that plural marriage is taught or characterized as something for sexual gratification.

7. Storm Rider (16:36): "Smith's concept of plural marriage was taught as a principle for all to follow."

You deny that Smith kept his plural marriage teaching and practice secret from all but his inner circle.

8. Storm Rider (16:36): "...there is no evidence that he had sexual relations with them."

You deny as "no evidence" or "innuendo" the sworn court testimony of Emily Dow Partridge, Smith's wife ~#24 – that she had "carnal intercourse" with Smith – rather than her testimony being a keystone fact of Smith's having had sexual relations with multiple wives, who during their lifetimes repeatedly affirmed to his embarrassed and denying RLDS son that they did "in very deed" have sex with Joseph Smith, Jr. (See quote of Compton, Summer 1996, p16, in Milo 07:39, 4 May 2008).

9. Storm Rider (16:36): "It was not the one night stand and sexual dalliances of the other individuals in the current section."

You want a special section kid glove treatment for your POV – and this claim is not true enough to justify it, even if taken at face value.

Ignoring the dictionary meaning of the word "or" (or mischaracterizing its use as "synthesis") is disturbing enough, but you are also starting to recycle positions such as the Smith sexual relations denial that have already been dismissed by verified reliable sources. That is tendentious debating. BabyDweezil and Sfacets were banned inclusively for their tendentious activities in this very article. Your tendentious debating and editing also exposes a position so weak that you are clutching at straws to support it, and now have run out of straws to clutch.

Your editing dispute is based on your inference of, or fear of, things not stated or implied in the article. These inferences are only imagined, and I think other editors will be disturbed that humoring them calls for preferential treatment of your POV. Since you have been able to muster only a tissue of rational arguments, and since there is no necessary limit to article faults that you can imagine by inference, ultimately you can't be satisfied. Milo 05:26, 20 May 2008 (UTC) Re-edited 04:32, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

What a wonderfully closed-minded presentation, if not an outright fabrication on several points. Please stick to facts and give up on your POV; the objective is to produce a better article and not meet the private agendas of editors. Let's start with a few facts and move from there. I will not follow your recitation format because it takes too much space and is rather infantile, but I will try to respond to each of your points such as they are:

1. User:209.128.98.90 initial edit was not even close to 1/3 related to polygamy (new math does not even make 1/5 = to 1/3). As the diff clearly shows the first edit from this Anon included: Jim Jones, Claude Vorihon, Charles Manson, David Koresh, and Joseph Smith. As you and I have already made abundantly clear; Koresh went well beyond polygamy and into concubinage. Joseph Smith is the only one that does not fit the description of the section. All of the others preyed upon women as things, used drugs to gain sexual favors, and their only objective was sexual gratification. There is nothing in Joseph Smith's history that compares to this type of behavior. You did not only misstate the facts, but you twisted them to meet your ends. If you cannot be honest, I suggest to take a break from Wikipedia or at least reread each of the five pillars.
2. You were the editor that blithely changed the title on a whim without any attempt to answer the issue at hand. We do not enlarge a section title only to meet personal objectives. There must be something in common between the individuals to group them together and there is nothing in common between them. Fornication was never plural marriage; it is the antithesis of it. As I stated above, another section is appropriate, but not this one single section for all of these individuals and their actions.
3. Sex in common? My god man, do you not understand the difference between going from woman to woman for sexual favors and marriage? Of course within a marriage one has a sexual relationship, but that quality of relationship has nothing in common with mounting some woman at your whim. This is the very definition of synthesis!
4. Do not play stupid with words; you will lose. It is this very stretch in the section title that has caused this silliness. You know very well that the result of your including Joseph Smith is a blatant attempt to color him with the actions of morally bankrupt individuals. If you do not understand this, then it is evidence clear as day that your abilities are sorely lacking and it is time to take a break. You are editing to meet your personal agenda.
5. You can't see the bloody conclusion that you have drawn by including such a dissimilar group with Joseph Smith? What have you wrapped your eyes in? You and this Anon have attempted to lead readers to assume that the actions of all five are the equivalent and they are not.
6. I have clearly told you that Brigham Young was the LDS leader that brought plural marriage to the forefront of practice. How is that denying or even anything else about Joseph Smith? Stick to facts and quit this silliness.
7. Joseph Smith III did deny his father's actions during his life time, but near the end of his life admitted that his father did practice plural marriage. I have never denied that fact; not once. What I have denied is that several women have admitted to having sexual relations with Joseph Smith after his death. None of them have been substantiated with facts and those who have said they have had progeny have not been able to prove their case through DNA analysis. Having fathered many children with Emma it seems odd that he was suddenly sterile with these women.
8. Bushman has stated that it is almost certain that he had sexual relations with some of his wives. That is the most that can be said. However, having sexual relations with one's wife is hardly the same as having sexual relations with "n'import qui". Or maybe I am mistaken; what was the culture in the U.S. 170 years ago? Are you saying that marital relations are the same as fornication? Please enlighten us with this reference.

When reading the article I have a difficult time understanding the purpose of the section. It is at the end of the article and has nothing to do with the sections around it. Are we trying to improve the article or just add on anything that comes to mind? What is the purpose of the article? The end of the article is a hodge podge of ideas and concepts that bleed everywhere. I suspect that much of it could either be merged into earlier sections or deleted altogether. Regardless, each of your points was either a misstatement of facts or purposely twisting them to meet your objectives. I will assume they are simply a misstatement, but I tire of silliness. I again strongly suggest you take a break because your evaluative abilities are presently off. If Joseph Smith needs to be listed I would suggest a new section about cult leaders that taught plural marriage or polygyny. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 07:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

(Note to future admins, RFC/U posters, and Arbcom participants. Storm Rider's above post has a diff link of http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cult&diff=213651425&oldid=213641416 Storm Rider 07:01, 20 May 2008)

Here is an evidence list of two libels included in four WP:NPA personal attacks, in your above post of Storm Rider 07:01, 20 May 2008:

• A. Storm Rider (07:01): "...if not an outright fabrication..."

"if not an outright fabrication" is a WP:Libel against a scholar (if believed it would cause loss of anonymous scholarly reputation and loss of non-anonymous academic employment), a speculation that is a WP:NPA personal attack on character (since "fabrication" is cheating that always goes to character), and a speculation that violates WP:AGF.

• B. Storm Rider (07:01): "Do not play stupid with words;..."

It being impossible to prove that a rigorous scholar plays at stupid, this statement is a WP:NPA insult-type personal attack, and a violation of WP:AGF.

• C. Storm Rider (07:01): "...is rather infantile..."

It's impossible to prove that a rigorous scholar has done anything "infantile", so this statement is a WP:NPA insult-type personal attack.

• D. Storm Rider (07:01): "...facts, you twisted them to meet your ends. If you cannot be honest..."

"If you cannot be honest..." is a WP:Libel against a scholar (if believed it would cause loss of anonymous scholarly reputation and loss of non-anonymous academic employment). The antecedent reference to "facts" is a set of disputes mixed with a math fraction, some or all of which are characterized as twisted to the point of dishonesty. Considering with benefit of doubt only the math fraction, this statement is a speculative leap to conclusion that a misstated count of one plus a disputed count of one – with the outcome being the difference among 2/6ths, 2/5ths, or 1/5th – is of necessity a dishonest misstatement. This is an obvious violation of WP:AGF, but because of its careless disregard for prudent investigating prior to making a libelous charge against a scholar, it is also a WP:NPA personal attack on character.

Precisely to make sure that the baseline facts were correctly known, I posted a diff of 209.128.98.90 on 06:53, 13 April 2008 in Milo 07:15, 19 May 2008. 209.128.98.90 did indeed post only five entries. A sixth entry (L. Ron) was added and removed later. You noticed an error, the correcting of which is a normal academic and Wikipedia process, and I have corrected my miscount posted fraction from 1/3 (=2/6ths) to 2/5ths. I have also posted a note following that correction that you dispute 2/5ths because you dispute that Koresh engaged in plural marriage.

In any case, your uttering of two libels included in four personal attacks ends this part of the article content debate.

No Wikipedia editor needs to risk their scholarly reputation by further debating with a violator like yourself. If you have anything else to say about Cult content, you'll have to get another editor to restate it for you, and I will debate with them.

Your WP:GAME – of removing items and insisting that they stay out during debate, and then creating an indefinite stall with tendentious debating, such as you did above by repeatedly restating POV claims, already settled by reliable sources as firm as sworn court testimony – that game is checkmated for now. Milo 04:32, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Are you representing yourself as a "scholar"? Do you really think that a "scholar", however loosely you employ the term, is superior to any other editor and is therefore meritorious of some higher degree of respect or deference from all other editors? Pray tell, how might other editors become aware of your elevated station? I would suggest that a scholar is not a title assumed, but rather one that is earned and evidenced by their contributions in the context of Wikipedia. Frankly, this is just too rich; it is worth a chuckle and I thank you for it.

My advice is, "If the shoe fits, wear it!". You misrepresented facts and twisted statements to support your POV. As I stated above, "I will assume they are simply a misstatement"; however, if you continue on in this silliness I will begin to think you have no interest in improving the article and are only seeking to be contentious. I again suggest you may need to take a break from Wikipedia; you are highly POV and have forgotten what the purpose of Wikipedia is; it is not your private soapbox. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 07:08, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Warren Jeffs entry

To other editors: Despite the irrelevant POV noise generated during this debate, it does seem to me as though the Joseph Smith, Jr. entry needs to be recast as a primary Warren Jeffs entry. Nearly everyone agrees that Jeffs is or was a cult leader in the post-1920 populist sense.
But Jeffs and FLDS didn't get their plural marriage lifestyle from nowhere, and it would be POV to ignore that Joseph Smith, Jr. is Jeffs' source in both teaching and practice for non-traditional-to-outside-culture plural marriages to women at ages as young as 14 (re Helen Mar Kimball, age 14, married May, 1843, wife ~#26 to Joseph Smith, Jr., per Compton).
With Jeffs apparently having 40-some plural wives with sex (apparently DNA tests revealed that he has children), the new Jeffs entry should include the existing reference citations to Joseph Smith, Jr. as the practicing teacher to Warren Jeffs and FLDS, of plural sealed marriage with sex, and add a Compton citation to include Smith's wife aged 14 (Helen Mar Kimball).
According to ABC 20/20, Jeffs has been tagged with two public testimonies (including an outstanding lawsuit or two), which claim he engaged in homosexual molestation, and reportedly he has admitted to heterosexual behavior outside of plural marriage. Depending on details not yet known, these cases may mean that Jeffs has engaged in both sexual gratification and plural marriage, suggesting that #Sexual gratification or plural marriage by leaders should remain a unified section. Milo 04:32, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

In this context several leaders could be added. There are several fundamentalists sects, each with their own leader. Also, a teaching perverted, if it has been, is a new teaching. I do think that Jeffs and most others practice a form of plural marriage. They seem to focus on just young girls, but most of Joseph Smith's wives where older; though certainly not exclusively. It is best to shy away from innuendo, particularly thatt provided in the media, and wait for evidence to be produced to support all the claims against some of these sect leaders. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 07:08, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Regarding this thread and the thread above: Storm Rider suggests handling the plural marriage issue as a separate section from the sexual gratification section. Would that be a workable compromise? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 16:40, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

No, not workable, because Storm Rider ultimately cannot be satisfied. SR has already indicated that Koresh would not be allowed on a list with Smith (Storm Rider (07:01): "including Joseph Smith is a blatant attempt to color him with the actions of morally bankrupt individuals"), so a separation of sexual gratification from plural marriage listings is just an attempt to put Smith in a POV moral class by himself.

No secular scholar would call Rajneesh/Osho morally bankrupt (his inner circle betrayed him – a problem familiar from the original Jesus cult). It's also illogical to judge morality among the cult leaders who went insane. And then Smith himself wasn't so morally pure, a point with which he might agree.

Secular scholars might highlight the Freudian subconscious need for Smith to justify the discovered affair with his maid, as the logical origin of his plural marriage revelation via bicameralism. Compton reviews early sources that believe Smith himself concluded that plural marriage was a false revelation, and then he or his first wife burned its writing. Thus had he lived, Smith might have ended the teaching of plural marriage, and quietly ended his practice of it as a self-judged immorality.

There are several logical reasons to keep the sexual gratification or plural marriage listings together, such as, to avoid endless debates about how to classify Koresh and Jeffs; and so far, no logical reasons to separate them. Milo 20:04, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Will, you stepped into this and I hope you have the courage to see it through. The above diatribe is so full of holes I will not respond to it. Cannot be satisfied? I was the one that suggested it int he first place. Milo was the one that stated Koresh was more than just a polygamist. As far as I am concerned he could easily fit in both sections. I suggest you keep personal comments out of the conversation unless the position can be supported with reputable references. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 23:01, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Storm Rider (23:01): "Milo was the one that stated Koresh was more than just a polygamist." What does that mean? Let's see the diff quote of me stating that.

Previously I let it slide when you wrote, (Storm Rider 07:01): "As you and I have already made abundantly clear; Koresh went well beyond polygamy and into concubinage." No, I didn't make any such thing clear (abundantly or otherwise), so you can't provide a diff quote of it. Are you misrepresenting facts and twisting statements to support your POV[6], or did you just make an attribution error by confusing me with 209.128.98.90?

Storm Rider (23:01): "I suggest you keep personal comments out of the conversation..."

See WP:Pot-kettle. Recant the two libels, and I'll give you slack on the two kiddy-insult personal attacks. Milo 02:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Just to put my 2 cents in, the above logic about including Joseph Smith dosn't appear to work for me. by that logic, we need to include David from the bible (the one who Joseph smith referanced as a figure of poligamy) as well as abraham, Moses, etc. (actually I am not shure about the moses thing, but we get the point). additionaly while marying a 14 year old is appaling by todays standards (unless you live in south carolina, or the district of columbia, Georga, Alabama, louisianna) when Joseph Smith did it, it was seen as normal (or at least not illegal). I am curious about the logic on why plural marrage needs to be included at all? if it allows poligamy, does it automaticaly become a cult, and if so what is the secondary source backing up that statement? in the case of warren Jeffs and David Korresh (as well as that guy in new mexico who's name excapes me but definatly needs to be included on the list) they where obviously abusing minors (according to the standards of the times), but Joseph smith wasn't (nither was King David, or Socraties for that matter).Coffeepusher (talk) 04:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

There are several questions, and one requires a long analysis, so I've moved them to four new subsections below: • Why should plural marriage be included? • Is a polygamous group always a cult? • Did Smith illegally abuse minors? • If Smith incited Jeffs' crime, didn't King David also? • Milo 12:43, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Is there a time limit to the individuals being included? It seems odd to include an individual from the early 1800s when everyone else is from the last 50 years. What reason is there to ignore all other polygynists in the intervening years or every other individual for having sex with multiple partners both young and old? Are we looking for the sensational or what?

I still don't understand the reason for the section generally. How does it improve the article? The topic is "Cult" and not specifically the behavior of cults. Is the objective for this to evolve into a list of the peculair behaviors of those identified by cults? Does it matter who is identifying whom as cult members?

The current section is just thrown in at the end of the article with very little tying it to the article as a whole. The purpose of this article is to explain the wide differences in what groups are labeled as cults and why. We cover from the Evangelical position to the academic, sociological position. This section seems incongruent with the topic than anything else. Can someone please explain if this is the beginning of an article of lists or is this just so important that it needs to be included? --Storm Rider ^(talk) 19:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why should plural marriage be included?

Coffeepusher (04:32, 22 May 2008): "why plural marriage needs to be included at all?"

From a project reporting viewpoint, plural marriage is always encyclopedic notable, because people want to read about this timeless subject (for example see the bibliography of Robert Rimmer). When there is cultural or legal trouble over plural marriage in the U.S., it's typically associated with groups referred to as cults, and is currently front page notable.

The article states that sexual abuse is the most frequently reported complaint against cults. That makes questionable sexual behavior a notably important risk of cults rather than a tabloid exception. If it's important, it should be a priority to report it.

Marriage (plural or single) is a surrogate concept for sexual gratification in the Victorian tradition. (The Victorian newlywed joke goes: "My dear, I have a most unpleasant duty to perform...") In Victorian times, one did sexual things, but did not talk about them, which is probably why Joseph Smith III was so much in denial about what his father's wives and contemporaries told him about his father's sex life.

Fundamentalist Christian preachers who today perpetuate the Victorian ethic, carry wallets filled with pictures of their family. They show and discuss these family pictures with other men as a sublimation for discussions of sex not permitted to their profession.

Plural marriage in 1840 included a plurally expanded function of undiscussed sexual gratification. Plural marriage can serve a similar function in modern Judeo-Christian cults. Milo 12:43, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is a polygamous group always a cult?

Coffeepusher (04:32, 22 May 2008): "allows poligamy, does it automaticaly become a cult...?"

In Church-sect typology (see article), a cult has nontraditional practices and high tension with the surrounding community. If a group practiced nontraditional polygamy, but got along with its neighbors (low tension), it would not be a cult. Not a cult, may describe Koresh's Seven Seals group prior to investigations of them, but a cult in retrospect as named by The Waco Tribune-Herald Series, ( "The Sinful Messiah" - March 3, 1993, and NYT 1994-01-15).

Koresh is a perfect example of ambiguity between sexual gratification and/or plural marriage. Sinful Messiah says Koresh 'had at least 15 so-called "wives."'. The source questions whether they were wives, but Koresh's remaining followers apparently believed they were actual wives rather than sexual gratifiers. By putting Koresh in a section titled #Sexual gratification or plural marriage by leaders, a potentially controversial editorial decision about this ambiguity is WP:Avoided. The same avoidance applies to Smith and Jeffs. Milo 12:43, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Did Smith illegally abuse minors?

Coffeepusher (04:32, 22 May 2008): "obviously abusing minors (according to the standards of the times), but Joseph smith wasn't"

The evidence suggests otherwise. Whether Smith was illegally abusing minor(s) depends on whether he had sex with any of his under-18 teenage wives, which would have been the crime of fornication without a marriage license, or bigamy with one. Lucy Walker Smith, wife ~#22, married May 1, 1843 at age 17, seems to fit this category. Lucy told Angus Cannon that Smith's wives, "were so nervous and lived in such constant fear that they could not conceive" (Compton p.17). Since Lucy was one of the wives who could not conceive, she was having sex with Smith.

Smith was charged with fornication and adultery by "Grand Jurors of Hancock County, at the May term 1844", though no specific partners were named in the newspaper report(Nauvoo Expositor). Smith's trial was set for October, but he was killed by a mob before it was held. Milo 12:43, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

First of all, I think you will find the average age of marriages in the United States to be less than 18 years of age in the early and mid 1800s. Interestingly, it was not until 2004 that Texas changed the legal age of marriage from 14 to the current age. Any girl who married prior to 2004 at the age of 14 and older was perfectly within her rights to do so. This does not absolve girls or boys or men who break the law in Texas today, but it does demonstrate that accountability and the position of a minor is certainly a flexible concept in society.

One of the difficulties of this entire article is the fact that "cult" is not defined uniformily across society. Within a number of Evangelcial groups today, Roman Catholicism is defined as a cult due to her aberant doctrines and beliefs. I find putting the label on one of the oldest Christian churches almost laughable and it is one of the complex issues associted with the term cult. In fact, I would suspect that almost any denomination/church/religion could be made appropriately labeled a cult based on the broad set of definitions in this article.--Storm Rider ^(talk) 23:39, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] If Smith incited Jeffs' crime, didn't King David also?

Coffeepusher (04:32, 22 May 2008): "including Joseph Smith dosn't appear to work for me. by that logic, we need to include David from the bible (the one who Joseph smith referanced as a figure of poligamy)"

• Smith founded a non-traditional church where members, to avoid damnation, were to obey his prophetic revelations from God without reservation.

• Smith incited his members to break state sex and marriage laws, by revealing that God had decreed that all civil marriages were void, and plural marriage was a required practice.

• Based on the testimonial evidence, Smith set an example by breaking state laws:

(1) prohibiting fornication with women having no civil marriage license (court testimony of Emily Dow Partidge, Smith wife ~#19), and

(2) prohibiting adultery with women having a marriage license with another man (sworn affidavit of the daughter of Sylvia Sessions (Lyon), Smith wife ~#7).

• Smith was grand jury charged with fornication and adultery, and the testimonial evidence points to his guilt of both.

• Smith strongly pressured Helen Mar Kimball to marry him, and he only gave her a short time to agree. She did consent to guarantee her family's salvation, though she was initially "livid" at the entire idea of violating Victorian legal and social monogamous marriage customs.

• Thus Smith incited, and practiced, sex and marriage law-breaking, taught future generations that they would suffer eternal damnation if they did not engage in either sex or marriage law-breaking (theoretically one could avoid breaking both), and set an example of high-pressure tactics to obtain marriage consent from a 14 year old woman.

• King David's plural marriages were traditional and legal in his time. Smith's justification for practicing illegal plural marriage in the 19th century United States, by pointing to King David thousands of years ago in Israel, is legally a mere excuse. (Smith and God might have similarly revealed that Old Testament Exodus 21:7-10, justified selling U.S. white daughters into slavery.)

• Warren Jeffs was raised to believe that Smith was first prophet in the FLDS line of authority. ("Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, John Woolley, Lorin Woolley, Leslie Broadbent, Joseph Musser, and Charles Zitting."[7]) Smith was to be obeyed, the deviant 1890 LDS revelations against plural marriage notwithstanding.

• Jeffs obeyed the plural marriage teaching and followed Smith's example of marriage practice with women as young as 14. While 14 was a legal consent age in 1840, by the 21st century it was not.

• Warren Jeffs (and possibly his predecessors) interpreted Smith's marriage to one or two 14-year-olds to mean that modern age of consent laws didn't apply to FLDS. However, Rulon Jeffs (and possibly his predecessors) previously avoided social and legal trouble by simply waiting until young FLDS women volunteered that they were ready to marry.

• Warren Jeffs took Smith's example of pressure tactics with Helen a few steps further, by forcing a 14 year-old to marry another man completely against her will. In doing so, Jeffs committed a crime of accessory to rape for which he was convicted.

Now suppose Smith and David were still alive along with Jeffs, and the 21st century victim who was 14 years old later sues them all for damages. Who is culpable for the forced-marriage victim's pain and suffering, under the civil standard of more likely than not?

Obviously, if Jeffs is sane, he is most culpable since he actually did it, and committed a crime while doing it. In deciding more distant culpabilities of Smith and David, a judge would determine how much influence they had on Jeffs, and whether they broke laws, or acted in some other unreasonable way that exerted undue influence toward inciting Jeffs to commit a crime or tort.

In his own time, David did nothing nontraditional, or wrong (except in the matter of Uriah, which neither Smith or Jeffs copied). Therefore, David can't be held responsible for incitment to future lawbreaking by Smith or Jeffs.

By comparison to David, Smith did several illegal things personally, incited others to act illegally in his own time, and also incited future lawbreaking with the threat of eternal damnation for not breaking certain laws. He also set a poor but not quite illegal example by using high pressure tactics to obtain consent to marriage from a gullible young teenager.

While one can't say for certain that a jury would hold Smith partly responsible for inciting Jeffs actions, Smith's teaching Jeffs to obey or face damnation, Smith's teaching illegal plural marriage, and then Jeffs stepping over the line from Smith's high-pressure young teen marriage to Jeffs' forced young teen marriage, strikes me as a case where I would vote to hold Smith as being partly responsible, more likely than not.

Accordingly, I reason that Smith's partial incitement of Jeffs' crime should be included in the Warren Jeffs entry at #Sexual gratification or plural marriage by leaders Milo 12:43, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

This logic gets very fuzzy very quickly and attempts to paint guild by innuendo. In US law system and person is not guilty until convicted. In the list above you have listed being charged is the equivalent of guilt; this is not acceptable and is deceitful.

You have hearsay and misstated a great deal of historical fact about Helen Mar Kimball. It was Heber Kimball, Helen father, that introduced Helen to the concept of plural marriage and Heber wanted to have a member of his family sealed to the prophet Joseph Smith. The pressure was in the family and not exerted by Joseph Smith. Though she felt the doctrine initially strange, she consented to her father's request. Further, Helen was a defender of the practice of plural marriage later in life.

Smith had more older women sealed to him than younger. In fact, women were sealed to Smith after his death and men were sealed to him as his sons. This concept of plural marriage is much more than sexual gratification as you have attempted to portray it. It has more to say about a lack of knowledge of its practice during the life of Joseph Smith than anything else.

I have seen no evidence that polygamy was the norm during the time of Daniel, Moses, Abraham, etc. Are you speaking within the Hebrew society or the society at large?

I don't know of a religion that has been around longer than 50 years that does not have a splinter group. You are attempting to equate the truthfulness of a revelation to obedience to a man. There is no evidence that obedience to Joseph Smith was a prerequisite of LDS theology. In fact, what Smith said was in direct conflict to this proposition, "I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves." That is not the definition of a dictatorial society.

Warren Jeffs took Joseph Smith example??? Do you have any references that the actions of Jeffs is directly correlated to Smith's? More importantly, as I have stated above it was Heber Kimball that put the pressure on Helen and not Joseph. Just read the bloody article on Helen Mar Kimball. This is a preposterous statement and has no basis in reality. It is pure synthesis and original research made from whole cloth.

The discussion on contributive culpability is silliness in the extreme and is unworthy of discussion.

In closing, if this policy of polygyny was a requirement for salvation then the Mormon people had a pitiful way of obedience. During the life of Smith less than 1% of the membership practiced plural marriage. During the life of Brigham Young less than 30% of the membership engaged in plural marriage. If this was taught as a requirement or if it was understood to be such, one would think that they would have obeyed more completely, particularly in a society where leaders were supposed to be talking to God. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 00:07, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

The Helen Mar Kimball article is a good example of why Wikipedia is not permitted as a citable reference source at the university level. Milo 09:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why should plural marriage be included, and other responses

this entire discussion focuses on this one question. Let me tell you how I read your responce, so that I can make shure we are on the same page.

1. people are interested in reports about plural marrage
2. When a contriversy over plural marrage occurs it usually involves a cult
3. marrage=sex, talking about marrage or children is bragging about sex without saying sex
4. common complaints about cults involve sex
5. so therefore if a group engages in sexual practices that are considered outside the norm by society they obviously may engage in sexualy abusive practices therefore we can include them in this article as a preemptive strike.

my primary problem with this entire train of thought is that we allowed a section called "abusive sexual practices" but the word "plural marrage" kept beeing included, and the only entery that falls exclusively under "plural marrage" is Joseph smith. all the others as they where writen would remain under the title "abusive sexual practices". This article has become less of a explination of the sociological practices of cults, and has become a soapbox for people to bite at spacific groups (look at how many times "scientology" has been deleted from the "see also" section). if we include Joseph smith, it will be a very verrry weighted entery that would push a spacific POV, even if it wasn't the intention of the incuder to push that POV. It will appear to be a back door way of including the mormons into this article (especially since it was only included after the section was entitled "plural marrage" as a way of including exclusively Joseph smith). although the responce to the rest of my statement is very good, I think that "plural marrage" should be deleted as well as joseph smith.Coffeepusher (talk) 17:46, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Coffeepusher (17:46): "we allowed a section called "abusive sexual practices""

Um, no, the section was originally titled "#Sexual Gratification by Cult Leaders" by 209.128.98.90 on 06:53, 13 April 2008. A section titled "#Abusive sexual practices" would be difficult to uncontroversially disambiguate, because large cultures believe that all sexual gratification outside of marriage is abusive, and other large cultures believe just the opposite.

Coffeepusher (17:46): "as a preemptive strike."

Preemptive strike, no. Historic examples, yes.

Coffeepusher (17:46): "This article has become less of a explination of the sociological practices of cults, and has become a soapbox for people to bite at spacific groups"

The article title is "Cult", not "Sociological practices of cults", though that subject is importantly included. This article also includes #Documented crimes, which is both history and a starting point for the criminology of cults. It is the latter, not the former in which average global citizens are most interested. The current section is similar to #Documented crimes, with an indirect approach to a companion coverage of torts, which are most frequently reported as sexual abuse within cults.

It is the decision of governments and historians that crimes, torts, mistakes, and social turmoil need to be recorded and repeatedly re-judged as a warning to future citizens against repeating the past. History accordingly includes a soapbox for people to publicize the faults (or benefits) of specific groups – to bring pressure for reform, to prevent their spread, or to prevent others like them from arising. Obviously, established religions also use this soapbox for competitive proselytization, but educated analysis can distinguish partisan religious competition from bona fide warnings of social challenges. The specific mandate to reform cults through watching and correction is found in the Parliamentary Commission on Cults in France (a.k.a., the French Report - see this unofficial translation of the French Report).

Coffeepusher (17:46): "marrage=sex, talking about marrage or children is bragging about sex without saying sex"

That applies to repressed cultures and individuals in expressing subconscious Freudian drives, or without bragging as a means of implementing cult-leader hidden agendas for sex, but doesn't apply to everyone all the time.

What both of these involve is either an overt agenda or subconscious denial means to confound judgments (such as this discussion) through ambiguity. Either creates conflict with the encyclopedic function of disambiguation judgment.

WP:Avoid is a conceptual way to sidestep that conflict while still making a report. By organizing the ambiguous examples under an "or" header (#Sexual gratification or plural marriage by leaders), the report is made, but the decision as to whether a particular example is sex or marriage or both is made by the reader.

Coffeepusher (17:46): ""plural marrage" kept be[]ing included" .... "it was only included after the section was entitled "plural marrage" as a way of including exclusively Joseph smith."

I don't understand how you got that idea. As "polygamy" it was there from the beginning for both Smith and Koresh. 209.128.98.90 on 06:53, 13 April 2008 originally included two "polygamy" entries, David Koresh and Joseph Smith, of the original five in "#Sexual Gratification by Cult Leaders".

209.128.98.90 probably knew what I've just related about polygamy/plural marriage being a well-known Victorian-ethic cover for expanded sexual gratification, so s/he didn't write a disambiguated title – and no need to since Wikipedia operates on WP:Eventualism, so that I provided it.

Smith engaged in both polygynous and polyandrous marriages, so I changed the article terminology from "polygamy" to "plural marriage". I also added the term "or plural marriage" to the section title to satisfy a coverage dispute (to topic-cover polygamy/plural marriage that was always present), and to avoid future disputes in ambiguous cases where factions can't agree whether it's plural marriage or merely sexual gratification or both.

209.128.98.90 on 06:29, 17 April 2008 added L. Ron Hubbard and Rajneesh for a total of seven entries by 209.128.98.90.

After some back and forth, L Ron lacked a source on sexual gratification. I entered his bigamous plural marriages, and then you pointed out that they took place before he was a group leader. Therefore his entry was deleted pending new sources, if any.

Coffeepusher (17:46): "the only entery that falls exclusively under "plural marrage" is Joseph smith"

That statement's problem is that it requires presumption that Smith's form of religious plural marriage is the only valid form, meaning that Koresh's religious form is not valid. Neither form is civilly valid. In the U.S. where they both had citizenship, the only legally-noticed form of plural marriage is illegal bigamy – the simultaneous holding of two or more marriage licenses without divorce. Under that standard, both Smith and Koresh are fornicating and/or adulterous sexual gratifiers. Using the dispute avoidance title #Sexual gratification or plural marriage by leaders, the reader can decide whose plural marriage form is valid, or both, or neither, without a dispute.

Coffeepusher (17:46): "if we include Joseph smith"

I'm not sure if you mean as a top-level entry or as background for a Warren Jeffs entry. I agree that Smith should not be a top-level entry.

Coffeepusher (17:46): "weighted entery that would push a spacific POV, even if it wasn't the intention of the incuder to push that POV"

I think you may be saying that some factual reporting would comfort anti-Mormons, just as publicizing the Spanish Inquisition comforts anti-Catholics, and that publicizing the agenda of the Israeli lobby comforts anti-Semites. It's just one of the problems of professional-grade reporting, that bigots aren't uniformly wrong, and that good reporters once had to expect accusations of fellow-traveling to report the genuine achievements of the Soviet Union.

Coffeepusher (17:46): "It will appear to be a back door way of including the mormons into this article"

If by "Mormons" you mean Fundamentalist Church of the Latter Day Saints, that's a done deal as FLDS has become a major and historic U.S. cult case, and is already in the article elsewhere. If by "Mormons" you mean Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints, they bear no responsibility for what FLDS did. LDS has separated themselves from at least two of Joseph Smith's teachings (the other being on persons of African descent).

It seems unencyclopedic to describe Smith as "first authority" of FLDS and not mention his founding of LDS, but if that's a compromise that has to be made to report Jeffs' close obedience to Smith's teachings and practice in the Warren Jeffs entry, I'll go along with it. Milo 09:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Of all the groups identified as cults sexuality is not the overriding feature or the characteristic that binds them all. If sexuality is tie that binds, why are we jumping from the 1960's back to 1840? Surely there must a be a broad list of people to include given the number of groups that have been identified as cults.

In this article, I still see no reason for the entire section. The criticism section, which should be a section that is critical of the information of the article as normally done on wikipedia, has turned into a "let's attack those called members of cults". The artcile has been addressing cults from a macro level and then all of sudden it goes to the micro level and then immediately goes back to the macro level; it just does not fit nor sense. How is this appropriate? That is not criticism...criticism would be a critique of the definitions and the fact that there is no agreement, an review of the theories discussed and their weaknesses, how the use of the term cult is used to demean (which is discussed in the article, but should be handled in depth in a criticism section), etc. All of this criticism is more appropriately handled in the pages of the respective individuals. At least there you will find experts in each field capable of discussing the history from a factual position.--Storm Rider ^(talk) 00:19, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

sorry about the difference between sexual gratification and sexual abuce...but we all understood what section I was talking about. Koresh was origionaly writen by you (I believe, but could be wrong)as exclusively plural marrage, that is true. it was deleted as that entery, and rewriten to show that he didn't practice poligamy...so my statement that Plural Marrage is included in order to accomidate Joseph Smith is correct. and yes, it is a back door way of pushing an anti mormon pov(church of latter day saints) because it mentions its founder...and leaves it at that. The reasons you have given to inlcude Joseph Smith would be accomplished by stating that "Warren Jeffs is the leader for Fundamentalist Church of the Latter Day Saints which is a breakaway group of The Church Of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (LDS). They claim to practice the true teachings of Joseph Smith, and seperated over reforms that took place within the LDS. and "plural marrage" should be deleted from the title.Coffeepusher (talk) 13:29, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Coffeepusher (13:29): "Koresh was origionaly writen by you (I believe, but could be wrong)as exclusively plural marrage, that is true. it was deleted as that entery, and rewriten to show that he didn't practice poligamy...so my statement that Plural Marrage is included in order to accomidate Joseph Smith is correct."

I'm disappointed that you were for some reason unable to examine the evidence link that I provided that shows I did not write the original Koresh entry, nor follow my explanation to show that did I not rewrite Koresh to show that he didn't practice polygamy, since plural marriage includes both polygamy and polyandry.

Being unable to get past issues of editorial things that didn't happen, it is impossible to work any more on the actual issues of holding Joseph Smith responsible for instructing Warren Jeffs, while avoiding a perception that LDS was responsible since they had parted from those same Smith teachings. Milo 19:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I checked the link, didn't pay attention to the author, and when I was writing my reponce I decided it wasn't really important to the case because if I was wrong you would correct me and who wrote it was actually irrelivent to the argument. policy debate style right? are you are unable to continue to work on this problem? I offered a compromise to this issue which you havn't told me your opinion...except to state that you want to hold joseph smith responcible for instructing warren jeffs.Coffeepusher (talk) 22:49, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Coffeepusher (22:49): "if I was wrong you would correct me"

Ok, if you've taken my evidenced points about what I did/didn't write, and that I didn't have the include/exclude Smith/Koresh agenda as you had perceived, we can work on this a little more.

Maybe it will help if I point you to my actual posted cult-topic agenda originally of 2007-01-31 here.

Coffeepusher (22:49): "I offered a compromise to this issue"

You mean your draft statement in bold? I see nothing I disagree with in concepts. I think I would word it to reduce the emphasis on the LDS name by just putting "LDS" instead, which also reduces the footprint of the entry.

Coffeepusher (22:49): "because it mentions its founder...and leaves it at that"

I got the idea from previous debates that it was better to not mention LDS here without a reference to it as a cult. You're saying it's better to mention LDS if Smith is mentioned. I can go either way on this one, meaning if Smith is mentioned, it's ok with me to either mention LDS or not mention LDS. Later I also realized that Joseph Smith, Jr. is linked, so if a reader clicks, they will find the LDS connection.

Coffeepusher (13:29): "plural marrage" should be deleted from the title"

Looks to me like Koresh's and Jeffs' entries both go away without plural marriage in the title.

Dunno, maybe this is where we'll have to give up because the Victorian ethic which uses (plural) marital duty to cover up provable (plural) sexual gratification, is perhaps just too cleverly ambiguous. Milo 06:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

as long as we wikilink the LDS, I see no problems with your correction. I think that the Koresh entery has enough personal sexual gradification in it to remain without the plural marrage (seeing as he didn't practice plural marrage per say, rather mass fornication without cerimony) if jeffs entery goes, so be it. my main consern is not to keep the entery, rather improve the article.Coffeepusher (talk) 01:31, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] AA

This material was removed:

• ..though he was also a member of their board. Though usually popular with the public, AA has some cult-apostate-style critics of their methodology and history (see Cult#External links).^[2]

With the edit summary, "rmv link to personal web page - unreliable source. This is not worthy of an encyclopedic article"[8] However the sources are the Washington Post and "NBC4.com", neither of which appear to be personal web pages. Was that edit a mistake? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:44, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I just removed similar copy to other editor. The copy: ..though he was also a member of their board seems to be suggesting that Vaillant was biased due to his affiliation with Alcoholics Anonymous, that argument will need support from a reliable source. I also removed the copy: The AA brand has community... how is this relevant? The person who wrote this section seems to be making some point, but it isn't clear. 82.35.59.169 (talk) 00:23, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

You deleted two mainstream news references, but you didn't claim they were wrong. I assume that as an IP anon, you didn't know that removing correct references from Wikipedia is seriously frowned on. You are welcome to discuss your issues here, but in the meantime I have restored the references.

82.35.59.169 (00:23): "seems to be suggesting that Vaillant was biased"

Vaillant has a conflict of interest, so this is a routine scientific research disclosure. Please read the Conflict of interest article.

82.35.59.169 (00:23): "The AA brand has community... how is this relevant?"

AA is evidenced as a cult, cults have critics with variable credibilities, and the references are evidence that AA critics have a factual basis for some local criticism – as a NPOV counterview to the evidence of AA being beneficial.

Btw, a usage note about your 00:17, 28 May 2008 Cult edit summary "...Editor seems to be inferring some point...". Writing editors imply, reading editors infer. (See COED "imply"). Milo 06:35, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

First, apologies for not signing in, I was being lazy.

I'm not a newbie to Wiki, my understanding is that the removal of correct references from Wikipedia is in no way seriously frowned upon. I removed the text as it is completely irrelevant - a bunch of crazies abusing one AA meeting does not provide a factual basis for cult tendencies (remember there are over 100,000 AA meetings in the world), the assertion is certainly not NPOV, and smacks of gossip.

I understand what conflict of interest means. The use of the conjunction 'though' in the sentence though he was also a member of their board implies that his research was influenced by his position on AA's board, unless you can support that statement with reliable referencing, it is also gossip and doesn't belong in Wikipedia.

I've also removed the cult-apostate-style critics part of the text and the links, if you read the Orange-Papers, it is clear that Agent Orange was skeptical from his first exposure to AA and didn't apostatize at all. The Green Papers is just a critique of Orange-Papers written by a non-alcoholic, non-AA individual, and consequently completely unrelated to this article.

Thanks for correcting my English, my dictionary states that to infer is to 'informally suggest or imply something', guess I was being informal!

Mr Miles (talk) 23:28, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

←Had you discussed your edits first (or at least done a smooth 'wiki-professional' bold, revert, discuss cycle for all the edits), you could have avoided adding a little more controversy to this controversial article. I can see from the turbulent AA article history that the editors there might doubt the propriety of such aggressive and questionable editing (including 2nd reversions), at the AA article like you have done here – especially not having the newbie excuse of being an IP anon.

Mr Miles (23:28):"...removed the text as it is completely irrelevant - a bunch of crazies abusing one AA meeting does not provide a factual basis for cult tendencies..." You removed correct references based on your absolute conclusion, dismissive of a nuanced set of cult-critic issues that you seem unable to restate with understanding.
The dismissed references exposed a pervasive big-city problem for which the AA slang is "13th steppers", about whom there are widespread warnings to newbie female members. Yet you seem in denial of what a sampling of the web forums accept as multi-city AA facts (New York, Chicago, LA, etc.), and which the Washington, D.C. references reliably sourced. It's just a fact that people act irresponsibly in big cities in a way that is rarer in 99,900 smaller places. Unfortunately, PR image trouble in a few big cities tarnishes the whole brand and begets critics. Cults have critics, and that both fact-checked and apostate AA critics exist is the cult-issue point being made. (Fact-checked critics help prove that angry apostate(s) aren't telling false stories.)

Mr Miles (23:28): "Agent Orange was skeptical from his first exposure to AA and didn't apostatize at all."
That's not what Agent Orange says in four clear and progressive stages toward cult apostasy: initial acceptance and belief, persistence through doubts, a watershed insight to loss of belief, and the final angry rejection.
(Pardon, you may want to skip over the following unpleasant cult-apostasy quotes from Orange's web site Introduction, but I have to show the other editors that you removed the Orange links for logically unjustified reasons, and ask for their consensus and help to restore them.)

Agent Orange says: "I started out with a very positive view of Alcoholics Anonymous. Like most people, I had only heard good things about A.A., and thought that it was just a wonderful self-help group where alcoholics got together to give each other moral support and advice in quitting drinking." .... "I continued going to A.A. and N.A. meetings, and continued to overlook the goofy stuff." .... "When people were saying things that were obviously crazy, I just thought, "Well, whatever. If believing that stuff helps them to keep from drinking, then okay, any port in a storm." ...."Then, a friend remarked that some people had accused A.A. of being a cult. That got me to thinking. Then I stumbled across Charles Bufe's book, Alcoholics Anonymous, Cult or Cure?, in the public library, and that was it. The dam burst, and a giant wall of water swept across the landscape." .... "I think the thing that really gets to me the most, the thing that angers me the most, is how almost everybody connected with the drug and alcohol treatment industry just assumes that the whole 12-Step program works great, and is the answer to everything, and really does help lots of people. The so-called "counselors" are nothing but disguised cult recruiters who shove their 12-Step religion on everybody they can, and they simply assume that if you are recovering from drug or alcohol problems, then you will of course become a happily-converted member of their 12-Step religion that they won't admit is a religion."

In other words, Agent Orange experienced a classic apostasy.

Mr Miles (23:28): "I understand what conflict of interest means."
You arbitrarily removed rather than editing a disclosure while claiming to understand COI.
From the sentence, "Vaillant, 2005, concluded that AA is beneficial, though he was also a member of their board.", (as IP) you removed [9] the clause in strikeout. The problem here is that you have (re) created a scientifically-unethical COI non-disclosure currently attributable to Wikipedia (this problem had occurred previously). As an ethical scientist, Vaillant would support a COI disclosure.

Mr Miles (23:28): "though he was also a member of their board implies that his research was influenced by his position on AA's board"
Again, you have misused "implies" (formal usage matters in Wikipedia debates). You didn't have enough evidence to state that, and in this case you were wrong. You actually inferred "was influenced", but what was actually implied was 'COI' (with a potential for bias, including unconscious bias).

Ok, it's reasonable to assume that others could also infer incorrectly, as you did. What main text replacement clause do you suggest to make the necessary COI disclosure? Milo 11:37, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Milo, I'm not going to respond to your ongoing sarcasm (Milo: "Pardon, you may want to skip over the following unpleasant cult-apostasy quotes from Orange's web site..." - what an immature comment!). However, if you believe that a Wikipedia article will be improved by the inclusion of a personal website set up by one individual with a grudge, then good luck to you. Mr Miles (talk) 00:11, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

How is politeness and consideration for your feelings equivalent to sarcasm by a juvenile?

You seem to like AA to the point where you would not like reading harsh cult-apostasy criticism. Since it was quoted as proof for other editors, I suggested the option to not read it, (and simply accept the analysis that it was indeed the rhetoric of cult apostasy).

This issue is relatively easy to satisfy for yourself. Print out this dialogue and take it to a counselor at the university where you are studying. Counselors will tell you that I expressed no sarcasm, and acted in a mature fashion. I also suggest that you read or re-read Wikipedia:Assume good faith.

Mr Miles (00:11): "...if you believe that a Wikipedia article will be improved by the inclusion of a personal website set up by one individual with a grudge..."

It looks to me as though you are trying to extend the purpose of the AA article to the Cult article. The two articles have different purposes, including that Cult is a much larger subject area.

At Cult, evidence of Agent Orange's cult-apostasy grudge, itself is the point, and a thousand-page web site makes Orange probably the best evidentiary example of that point. Since this article is about cults, there would be no reason to link to Agent Orange if he did not have a cult-apostasy grudge. Agent Green also approved of Orange's AA research collection, so it's not like Orange's site is without factual value.

The link to Agent Green is to NPOV-counterbalance the doubtful parts of Orange's conclusions, including those that are cult-specific. Both Orange and Green links were properly POV-annotated per Wikipedia:External Links.

Please contribute to repairing the disclosure problem you recreated. What main text replacement clause do you suggest to make the necessary COI disclosure for Vaillant? Milo 09:11, 30 May 2008 (UTC)