Talk:Cuban sandwich

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Contents 1 Mojo 2 rewrite 3 hatchet edits 4 banner discussion 5 all together now: It didn't come from Miami... 6 putting it in the proper category

[edit] Mojo

An authentic Cuban Sandwich should be made with "mojo" not mustard. Mojo is an olive oil and garlic sauce that is made fresh daily. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Redfish62 (talk • contribs) 01:59, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

What evidence do you have to support this? "mojo" is a citrus/garlic marinade that is used on the pork roast that goes into the sandwich. However, yellow mustard is a standard condiment on the sandwich.DCM 16:07, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] rewrite

Hope the extensive cleaning up meets everyone's approval. I left in all the facts that were already in the article, but made it more clear that there are regional differences in what makes a "true" Cuban. Zeng8r 02:23, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] hatchet edits

Some editors are far too quick to eliminate a whole paragraph or section when they don't like the way something is worded. Please rewrite the specific parts you think need fixing so that the surrounding (accurate and cited) information remains in the article. Zeng8r 11:26, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

As a Tampa resident, your edits are noticeably biased and POV. Starting from the top: "traditionally, the pork is marinated in mojo sauce", there are countless Cuban sandwich shops and restaurants that do not use mojo sauce, just because some Tampa sandwich shops do it, doesn't make it "traditional" or even commonplace. Your characterization of a plancha being very similar to a panini grill is completely inaccurate. Both are heated devices used as sandwich presses, but the similarities end there. What makes a plancha or Cuban sandwich press distinct is that its panels are flat, not grooved, panini grills do not effectively and evenly heat a sandwich cubano. "All interested parties agree with the above list of ingredients" that's blatantly POV. "In Miami, your sandwich would be complete" says who? Who are these interested parties? "In other places, however, more items are needed to make the sandwich a "true" Cuban" says who? These are all opinions. "Another variation replaces Cuban bread with panini bread. This is more common in the northern United States" There's nothing to indicate that its commonplace, let alone in the Northern U.S., that use panini bread in place of Cuban bread. You'll never find a source to support this because its not true, and even if a handful of people did it, it wouldn't be notable enough to mention. Just because a handful of people believe that Bud Light tests better with a splash of tabasco sauce and lime juice doesn't mean its worth mentioning on the Bud entry. Being from Tampa doesn't make you an expert by proxy on the Cuban sandwich, back up your additions with real sources and avoid blatantly point of view comments. 65.0.105.181 07:23, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Right now, the only issue is that Zeng8r is not writing in an encyclopedic tone. The content added was alright, just not exactly appropriate for an encyclopedia article on a sandwich. Maybe if this were for a history piece on Ybor City or the sandwich in Tampa, then the tone would be appropriate. I've tried to fix these problems by going back to a prior version, and utilizing the text and references added by Zeng8r.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 07:47, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

A few comments for the unregistered user who likes to use 2nd person pronouns:

1) Without a point of view, one cannot see. It's also impossible to write without one. What you strive for in neutral articles is a balanced POV; these people think this, these others think that. Coincidentally (or not), that's exactly how the article is written.

2)The article is actually well sourced with information about what kind of Cuban sandwiches are made where. Did you click on the references before going off at the keyboard? On a related note, I'm kinda surprised that someone who claims to be from Tampa would add all those "needs citation" markers to very commonly known information in the Cuban bread article. Everyone should have a good grasp of local history, imo.

3)Some of the facts and comments you objected to (such as the whole panini thing) have been part of this article for a long time. Having some respect for the knowledge of fellow wikipedians, I left them in when the article was reorganized. Just because I've never heard of something certainly doesn't mean that it's not true.

4) I can't believe you would become so incensed about an article on a sandwich.

As for the tone, there was absolutely nothing wrong with it, imo, but we can agree to disagree. I can't agree, however, on the gutting of the history section. There's a very interesting back story as to why this simple food has 2 (or three) claims to ownership, and to why it is so common in a few places but hard to find anywhere else. Without the history, the article is just a recipe, and much useful information is lost.

So, taking into account all the comments made by everyone, I'll spend a few minutes restoring and adjusting. And, in honor of this conversation, I'll get myself a (Tampa-style) Cuban for lunch. Zeng8r 11:55, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] banner discussion

Some statements in this article contradict the references. They tell of the Tampa/Ybor City origin of this dish which is not mentioned in the article at all. 71.101.18.250 00:59, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] all together now: It didn't come from Miami...

Anonymous person: While the reference you added mentions that the Cuban sandwich is popular in Miami (which no one disputes), it directly contradicts your repeated insertion of Miami as a possible point of origin. In fact, while I removed your edited text (again), I left the reference right where you put it. Here's a quote from the How did the Cuban Sandwich make its way to Florida? section:

From the opening of the first cigar factory in 1886 until the 1930's, Ybor City was a flourishing Latin community and was the "Cigar Capital of the World." As a result of severe depressions in Cuba, thousands of Cuban immigrants, both black and white, came to the Tampa, Florida area. In fact, Ybor City would later be called the "Havana" of America by the Florida Branch of the Federal Writers Project Archives in 1941. The sandwiches were popular with the Cuban immigrants who worked in cigar factories, selling for 15 cents each. Somewhere in time, Italian Genoa salami was added to the Cuban sandwiches of the Tampa area. In the late 1800s, the major ethnic groups of Ybor City were Cubans and Italians.

All the other references tell the same story, such as this one from the Miami Herald:

Sometimes what you need is a hot Cuban. Un sandwiche cubano. A Miami staple. Or is it? The Cuban sandwich is not, in fact, a Cuban Miami invention. It hails from Tampa -- specifically Ybor City, the old cigar-factory town within Tampa.

And this one from the Tampa Tribune:

OK, for a quick history lesson, it was back at the beginning of the 20th century that cigar workers in Ybor and West Tampa would bring in mixto sandwiches, like the ones they had had back in their native Cuba. These simple sandwiches would undergo changes as immigrants from different countries came to Ybor. That's the harmonic convergence part. It took all of those cultures to refine the sandwich to the perfect Cuban. The Spanish put in the fine ham; the Sicilians added the pungent salami. From Cuba came the pork marinated in that rich sour-orange mojo. Layer that with Swiss cheese, pickles and mustard and put it all between slices of freshly baked Cuban bread and life is good again. ... Just don't believe everything you see on the Internet, and, by all means, do not let anyone tell you the Cuban came from Miami. It is ours.

And the line in the Cuban sandwich article which you insist on repeatedly changing:

As with Cuban bread, the origin of the Cuban sandwich (sometimes called a "mixto sandwich", or "Cuban Pressed Sandwich") is somewhat murky. The sandwich became a common lunch food for workers in both the cigar factories and sugar mills of Cuba and the cigar factories of Ybor City by around 1900.

All are in agreement, none mention a Miami origin. How could they? Cuban sandwiches were already being munched in Cuba and in Tampa when Miami was still only an orange grove, if that.

Now will you please stop this foolishness?... Zeng8r 22:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

+Guess not. Reverting to an incorrect version (again) without discussing the indisputable evidence above is not good faith editing, imo. Zeng8r 01:12, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi! I see there was a request for a third opinion, but I only see statements from one side on this. From a brief reading of the linked sources, as far as I can tell Zeng8r is correct in his view that no reliable sources have been provided for the claim that the sandwich originates in Miami. Could the proponent or proponents of the other view please make a case and request a third opinion again? Thanks William Pietri 03:47, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

My anonymous friend who refuses to use this talk page:

Here's a quote from the source you added (and I left in the article, btw):

No one is certain exactly where and when the Cuban sandwich was invented. We do know that Cuban sandwiches (called "a sandwich mixto") were common on cafeteria and restaurant menus in Cuba by the 1930s, and there is some evidence of them as early as the turn of the century.

It doesn't "dispute" anything; it simply says that the exact location is uncertain... which is exactly what the quote from the main article already cut and pasted above already says.

Your new source also says that there is evidence of a turn-of-the-century origin. The other sources already cited provide that evidence, once again showing that the sandwich was invented while Miami was still a tiny village with no discernable Cuban population. (Have you read the History of Miami, Florida article? Maybe you should; it's won an award...) Zeng8r 02:11, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] putting it in the proper category

I've noticed that a few editors have been reverting this article's categories, going back and forth between "History of Tampa" and the parent "Tampa, Florida" category. It's also been going on in the closely-related Cuban bread entry.

Personally, I think the parent category works best since both items are not just part of the past; they're still very common food staples in Tampa. (Coincidentally, I'm finishing my breakfast of toasted Cuban bread as I type this!)

Maybe there's a good wiki-reason to put this in the "history of" category - whatever, I don't think it's a big deal either way. But anyone who's concerned should discuss it here rather than just reverting back and forth. Just my 2 cents... Zeng8r (talk) 13:57, 7 March 2008 (UTC)