Talk:Csángó

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Estimates put the total number of Csángó people at around 70,000." - What estimates?

Most of the Romanian Roman Catholics of Bacău are Csango people that were assimilated through the ages. Now, you may consider it debatable whether Csango that no longer speak their Hungarian dialect are still Csango. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 16:59, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

This is indeed a good question. But bear in mind that most Csángós interpret their identity primarily in religious terms. In this sense, (virtually) all Catholics in Bacău would be Csángó (and most of them Romanian as well, both at the same time: identities need not be exclusive). But of course, there are surely Catholics of Csángó origin who are so assimilated that they feel they are simply Romanian. Questions concerning identities are always tricky, so I guess we cannot answer this question by producing a single magic number. Maybe we should give several numbers, as economists do with regard to Money_supply :) --Tamas 17:59, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I met a Csango some months ago. And she was cute! Hmm... this could be a novel pickup line: "I want to talk to you because I'm researching for a Wikipedia article" :-)

I didn't sense any strong accent when she was speaking, so she probably grew up in a community speaking much Romanian. Anyway, I really doubt she'll get back to her village and continue speaking her dialect. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 20:12, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Of course, this is quite typical for rapidly assimilating rural communities. Once people leave their village, they are quite unlikely to go back and stick to the old ways of their (grand)parents, including clothing, dialect etc. That's how traditional rural dialects are dying out all over Europe.

Actually, me too met a Romanian girl about a year ago from Méhkerék (Micherec), Hungary. And she too was cute! :) (I mean, really.) And she spoke Hungarian without any accent. Actually it only turned out that she was Romanian (or of Romanian origin) when she told me where she came from, and I happened to know that that particular village has had a Romanian population historically. So assimilation is really quick and probably irreversible in (linguistically) isolated small communities. Which is of course a pity from a cultural/ethnographical point of view.--Tamas 14:54, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Numbers, again 2 Catholics of Moldavia 3 "related groups" info removed from infobox 3.1 Is this an informative article or a propaganda place? 4 Reversion 5 Number 6 Disambiguation about the Roman Catholics in Moldova 7 Puzzling numbers

[edit] Numbers, again

Hello, I am puzzled by some apparent inconsistencies in this article. So, first of all, Csango live "mostly in Bacau county", where they are 5,794 (by counting all Hungarian-speaking folks, not only the ones declaring themselves Csango). Then, you have the info about 60-70.000. So, where are the remaining Csango? It's a problem of consistency.

Second, I also feel that the "it is thought that" (by who?) of the 1521 recommendation cannot be simply translated into "estimates put the figures at". What's puzzling is that the 1521 recommendation is actually talking about people speaking csango (and not, as bogdan seemed to think, all people having csango ancestors).

May I suggest adding some explanation for puzzled readers? :) Dpotop 12:44, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

The trouble is that identity as such is almost an elusive concept, and all the more so for the Csángó. It is not easy to tell what makes one a Csángó. Is it religion, language, ethnic identification? Can you be a Csángó (in terms of religion, mother tongue) and feel that you are Romanian by ethnicity at the same time? (I think you can, but that's my private opinion, and most of my fellow Hungarians would have me stoned for it:) ) So the most we can do is to give data in terms of ethnic identification, religion and language use, and that's the end of it. There are some things that cannot be pinned down by scientific precision, and identity is one of them.--Tamas 13:41, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear Dpotop, is the Council of Europe not a good enough source for you? What kind of source would you actually accept?--Tamas 16:16, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Very good source, but the document itself does not give its sources, and it also presents the info as disputed. Also, the expression "it is thought that". Pretty weird for an official document, I write better prose every day. Two possibilities, from my point of view: (1) it's not something of great importance and they expedited it in 5 minutes, or (2) they had no source for the numbers, but someone wanted to put them there. :) Dpotop 16:56, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

BTW, if you think my addition is not ok, just cut and paste the text from the report.Dpotop 17:01, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I did dig a bit in the recommendation of the council of Europe. It seems that it is part of a larger working document, which the Romanian delegation rejected, and you also have the oppinion of the Romanian delegation (presented by someone called Prisacaru), and the list of the folks that adopted the document: [[1]] Dpotop 17:08, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I won't change it, it is sort of OK with me. To be precise, what the link in the article refers to is the recommendation itself which was adopted by the Council of Europe. What you refer to here are the working documents. The fact that the Romanian delegation disputed the recommendation and/or some of the working documents is quite understandable: no government likes to be criticized by international organisations.--Tamas 17:23, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Catholics of Moldavia

Are all the Catholics of Moldavia of Csango/Hungarian origins? I know that in the middle ages there were some non-Hungarian Catholics, like the bishopric of the Cumans and also some abbeys, but I don't don't whether they left any traces. bogdan 16:29, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:14, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is this an informative article or a propaganda place?

Do you think that the parts "Scientific Conferences about the Csango issue", "Assimilation - A False Problem", "Popolation" are informative? I think that they are only propaganda...

[edit] Reversion

I do not believe that such paranoid extreme right-wing drivel as presented in the quotes before the reversion has any other purpose than to confuse anyone who looks at that block of nonsense. Try to stay objective. I myself believe that the version I reverted the article to has its own tendencies towards Hungarian nationalism, yet I don't have the time or inclination to start digging up great "truths" about the Csangos. Nevertheless, this is an acceptable wiki type version that can be refined by those who have the constraint NOT to insert the appropriate chapters of "Chauvinist Xenofobia: A Guide to National Purity".

I'll be back to see whether this ignites into a flame war, but I'm sad to say I will not participate (I had my share of those on irc long ago and it's not that interesting for me anymore).

My personal opinion is that whoever put that block of quotes in (I'm not so good at this wiki stuff, so I'm not sure who it was) never intended for anyone to read it, but only wanted to stifle any other point of view than his own. I don't think that's fair.

Nu fiti nesimtiti. Nu asa se conving oamenii. Ai o opinie, foarte bine, sa dai cu parerea, dar o enciclopedie trebuie sa contina ambele puncte de vedere, si trebuie sa fie un text DENOTATIV in loc de una tendentioasa, aproape literara, deci CONOTATIVA, care favorizeaza un punct de vedere peste celalalt. Ganditi-va la asta. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Petyo84 (talk • contribs) 16:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Number

To state as Csango population all Roman-catholics from 1992 in Moldova looks like OR. --Alex:Dan (talk) 14:15, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Controversial as it is (only hungarian POV), that is a source... Thank you. --Alex:Dan (talk) 15:37, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation about the Roman Catholics in Moldova

At the end of the 14 century, under the rule of Alexandru cel Bun, the Poles established a Roman Catholic Bishopric in Bacau. It was a political move of the Moldavians dukes, in order to strenghten the alliance with the catholic states of Poland and Hungary. Therefore the origin of the roman - catholic population of Moldova stems from the local Romanian polulation who converted to roman - catholicism.

During the next centuries, catholic Szekler economic migrants, fearing the huge feudal taxation or political persecutions in the Kingdom of Hungary, settled in the area and where welcomed by the local catholic population.

Actually, the catholic population in Moldova is abb. 200.000 of which less than 2000 are the Hungarian-speaking descendents of the Szekler refugees (Csangos).

Taking profit from the fact that most of the people don't have information about the Bacau Bishopric and the early catholic proselitism among the local people, the Hungarian nationalists are claiming that ALL the catholics in Moldavia are the descendents of the Szekler refugees. That is the stake of the on-going debate and the explanation of the inconsistency of the demographic data in the Hungarian sources. user:Transsylvanian

Are u sure? in the 14th century the Kingdom of Poland was not in Moldavia's vicinity ... there was no Moldavia either. :)) don't forget the personal union with Hungary under Angevin kings + the Duchy of Halych was anexed to Hungary

The Poles started to interfere in the Csango's religious problems right after the Battle of Mohacs, and in the period of reformation in Transylvania.

Speaking about the Kingdom of Poland and the Papacy before any reflection on the Kingdom of Hungary ... damned funny ...

it is also comic speaking about Romanian speaking csangos stems from the local Romanian polulation who converted to roman - catholicism. But why do they call themselfs just Romanians? they adopted the Szekely Csangos self denomination for what reason? --fz22 (talk) 11:49, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

1- Moldavia was established in 1353, by Dragoş, the Vlach Knyaz of Maramureş, so Moldavia DID existed in the 14th century. Later, Bogdan de Cuhea another Vlach voivode from Maramureş who had fallen out with the Hungarian king, crossed the Carpathians in 1359, took control of Moldavia, and succeeded in removing Moldavia from Hungarian control.The frontier of Poland reached Moldavia during the reign of Casimir III the Great (Polish: Kazimierz Wielki; April 30, 1310 – November 5, 1370), King of Poland (1333-70). Alexandru cel Bun, prince of Moldova (1400-1432) married the Polish princess Rymgajla (daughter of Kęstutis and sister of Vytautas the Great of Lithuania) and Rymgajla established the Bishopry in Bacau.

2- The Bishopry of Bacau was ALWAYS administred from Poland, since the very beginning, not since Mohacs (1526). Hungarian interference was not welcomed in Moldavia, because of the tentatives of Hungary to conqurer the country.

3- As I already explained, the roman - catholic population of Moldavia are and where always Romanian. The Hungarian - speaking Csangos arrived much RECENTLY and thery are a SMALL PORTION of the Romano - Catholics in Moldavia. Of course they call themself Csangos:)). To not be confused with the 4,317 persons which declared themselves Hungarians at the census of 2002, in Bacau County; those ones are generally located in the large cities and arrived there during the communist regime.

4- Hungarian extremist and / or semidocts are having the tendency to MAKE THE "CONFUSION" between the entire roman-catholic community (250.000) and the Csango group (according to the census of 2002, 796 declared themselves Csángó). This is the perpetual problem of extremists, claiming large numbers getting deceived if they do not found large numbers in reality and therefore...criyng for discrimination!

I was a direct participant at the 2002 census and I do not make statements without a solid knowledge of the situation.

Best regards, user: Transsylvanian —Preceding unsigned comment added by Transsylvanian (talk • contribs) 13:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Puzzling numbers

This is generally a nice article, nevertheless, there are some puzzling figures: so there are 240000 catholics in Moldavia and 43% live in settlements where hungarian is still spoken. OK so if two guys speak hungarian in New York does this make New York a 'settlement where hungarian is still spoken ?' If you look a bit more closely, then you see that 43% of 250000 is around 100000 people, just a bit more than the 70000 csango-speaking catholics of the Council of Europe, which by the census are some 6000. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.233.22.251 (talk) 21:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)