Talk:Crust punk

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This page was listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion in May, 2004. The result of that discussion was to keep the article. For an archive of the discussion, see Talk:Crust punk/Delete.

Contents

[edit] Fred Durst?

I don't want to edit the main page because I'm no expert on crust punk, but I have a feeling all the text about Fred Durst is wildly incorrect. Someone should clean it up...

Some goon added Menudo, Prince, New Kids on The Block and a slew of others to the examples of bands list!!! Sorta funny but not really. I removed em.----

Why was dropdead removed from the list of bands? I understand that some people may consider dropdead something more like "political thrash," but you could also argue that aus-rotten is anarcho-punk, not crust punk, but it was left alone. millerc 22:38, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yikes, some vandal messed with the page again, I'm not an authority on crust punk so I'm not sure which ones to remove/put back in but some of these are rediculous...--71.198.164.138 06:09, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Wait, so is Fred Durst really crust punk??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.120.162.80 (talk) 15:24, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History

Some fuck messed up the histroy! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.42.8.146 (talk) 16:25, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Crust?

There are a handful of bands listed whose categorization as --crust-- are questionable. Propagandhi are patently not a crust band. While they have anarcho lyrics, their sound is pure pop-punk, and their asthetic is light years away from anything that could be called crusty. I'm removing them.

Macho 10:52, 26 Apr 2005 (CST)

     ---yeah they're smarter than most crust bands.

The above statement is laughable. --Switch 17:21, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Why on earth would anyone take a genre like Crusty and rename it 'Crust punk'? It's one of the stupidest tautologies imaginable. Crust punk as opposed to what? Crust lounge? Crust jazz? Crust MOR?

BlueThird (talk) 04:18, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not stupid; it's just what people call it. The fact that there are no other genres called crust does not stop people calling it crust punk. There are many other genres like this e.g. Goa trance which can also be called goa and there are no other genres called goa. So why do some people add trance? They just do. One reason to do so is that it gives extra information for anyone who is not familiar with the topic. Munci (talk) 14:57, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear. Your logic has failed you, Munci. That it's 'just what people call it' doesn't mean that it can't also be functionally illiterate, or just plain stupid. And your analogy is off, but I'll come back to that. Crusty developed out of the anarcho-squatting/travelling scene in the UK that were spawned, in large part, by the politics and music of bands like Crass and Discharge. Though some might argue that the name came from the title of the Hellbastard demo, a far more commonly held view would be that it actually refers to the deliberately confrontational fashion sense of crusties: crusty hair, crusty clothes, crusty dogs on a string. The lifestyle and genre could only ever have developed from punk; that is implicit in the name and has been right from the very beginning. Nobody in the UK, where the term quickly became a household word, would ever have associated the movement with any other style or musical ideology. To change the name from crusty to crust punk therefore amounts to tautology. It's a phrase that sounds like it was made up by an American music journalist who couldn't be bothered adequately explaining the original crusty movement to his or her readers.

Now, back to your analogy. First we had trance. Then it went to Goa and developed slightly to become Goa trance. Though the word Goa has become recognised as a shorthand for a style of trance, it doesn't have any inherent connection to the music, since it refers primarily to the Indian state where the music developed. But as I've pointed out, crusty was always punk, and could only have been punk. To call something crust punk is like calling something trancey dance. It's utterly laughable.

Finally, to say that it 'gives extra information for anyone who is not familiar with the topic' is one way of putting it; to say that it panders to the stupidity and ignorance of those who don't understand the genre or its attitudes would be another. Since when has the desire to feed information to the general public been a defining characteristic of any worthwhile youth subculture?

BlueThird (talk) 05:12, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cite juggling, riding bikes

Someone just added juggling and riding bikes to the list of topics of crust songs. I fully agree that those are activities that many crust punks partake in, but I cannot think of any songs that talk about them. Can you cite some here in the talk page, please?

Macho Philipovich 16:00, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

--- U-lock justice by r.a.m.b.o., about riding bikes. --- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.102.115.7 (talk) 19:07, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

Why are the cultural origins of crust punk listed as 1980s North America? From my perspective, this was a very British scene: Amebix, Deviated Instinct, Extreme Noise Terror (by way of Zounds, and the Crass collective). Late 1970s UK sounds far more plausible to me. Cyberinsekt 22:54, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Levellers?

I deleted the crap about the Levellers, NO WAY can the Levellers ever be seen in any possible way as any kind of crust band, maybe left-wing folk rock but definitely NOT crust.I agree that Crass and Discharge are wrongly described as crust but they should be mentioned as very important influences for the entire crust scene.

I'm not sure you can describe the "British use of crusty" as incorrect and the "crust punk" usage as somehope correct, they're different scenes with similar names. Probably best to replace that section with something like "Crusty is sometimes used as a synonym for grebo" and leave it at that.

[edit] Possible vandalization

I removed a section that stated that this is pro-homosexual rights. I don't mean to say that Crust punk isn't this, but I believe that this was put in as a joke or something. --Jazz Remington 05:47, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

It isn't a defining aspect, but neither is vegetarianism/veganism, and that's mentioned. I played bass in a funkcore/crust band, and only one member was a vegetarian. I bet you can't name a single crust band who don't support gay rights... I think it should be included. --Switch 17:19, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm not a crust (but I do like the little bit I've heard), but I'm an anarchist and have some crust friends and I agree, gay rights/liberation would be in line with the rest of the political ideas mentioned. It shouldn't be considered vandalism and is probably fine to have in the article. The Ungovernable Force 08:02, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

It looks like a lot of the page was deleted.

Crust Punk People separate From Crust Punk Music How about making the info about crusty people a separate page from crusty music rather than merging the two. I'm afraid the info on crusty people will be lost. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.202.27 (talk)

SwitChar:That sounds cool. Is there any recordings about anywhere? Munci (talk) 17:38, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Page repaired

Ok, I think I repaired the page pretty well, I expanded all the sections except for the british one, broke one section in two, added new sections, took out some of the weasel words, cleared up some vague parts and added some sources for it all. However my keyboard did a weird thing on the fashion bit which I don't know how to fix and my changes have some speeling errors which need to be fixed. I also added a bit about ska crust Crustbastard Sep. 6 2007

[edit] Genre

There needs to be something about the different influences and subdivisions within crust punk. As controversial as this might seem, bands such as Leftover Crack (Choking Victim), Mouth Sewn Shut, No Cash, and others that mix ska with crust should be given their due. Additionally, there needs to be more about why crust punk is so different from even the more hardcore sounding and/or DIY community/philosophy strands of punk like street punk, hardcore punk, etc. WHAT MAKES CRUST PUNK CRUST? Its hard to explain crust punk to non-punk aggressive music fans (like hardcore kids), non-crust punks dismiss crust punks as crazy dirt kids, and people that don't listen to punk obviously notice the radically different and gloom drenched aesthetics and sound of crust but can't figure out how its punk beyond the patches and studs. Alright, so maybe that's a bit of a daunting task. Y.Pestis

I wouldn't really say no cash are crust at all, it's too teenage angst, the lyric content has very little politics compared to crust, then again, new offshoots of punk are developing as we speak, animal rights, squatting and drinking cider are good pointers to help work out whther bands are crusty, mouth sewn shut are definitley, as are LoC and c/v, mouth sewn shut are members of toxic narcotic and sound a shitload like them, so they should be on there.

You really should attach your name for proper introductory purposes. Regardless, I consider No Cash an offshot of crust because it came out of the music style and their politics are of squatting, drinking, hatred of life, etc. Additionally, most of the American crusties don't drink cider, so far I've noticed that's a UK and maybe European thing, but the other qualifications seem clichė but right on the money!Y.Pestis 11:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Band list

More importantly, though, I'm going to clean up the list immediately. Crass? Discharge? There is no way you can call them crust. Definitive crust: Amebix. Definitive modern crust: Wolfpack/Wolfbrigade. --Switch 17:19, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Amebix is an obvious crust band, but when you think of crust you have think of current day crust bands that are still around and active (like World Burns To Death), as well as the handful of pre-crust bands that obviously played an important role in shaping what crust punk became. I put CRASS back on the list because CRASS was the first punk band to really infuse punk music/culture with a philosophy and politics of anarchism, something crucial to the politicallly left orientation of crust. In my opinion, CRASS along with a handful of pre-crust anarcho punk bands should be included in the list so people looking up crust on Wikipedia might get some direction. --Noather

Okay, I went through and deleted most of the bands that were obviously not crust. There are a couple I've not heard of, so fans will need to check again. I've left a few bands I'm unsure of that might be more anarcho than crust, but if the Dead Kennedys are anarcho-punk, these bands should be alright here. --Switch 17:28, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I dunno how you can call Contravene crust either among many others. Seems like someone just listed a punch of anarchist punk bands. It was my understanding that what's called "crust" is generally much like grindcore: rediculously hard to understand screeching or deep singing, while being overtly political, like Destroy for example.

  • The list needs to be cleaned up because most band links leads to other random pages. In Flames 14:31, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I just got rid of the list and instead linked to List of musicians of crust punk which I just created. I went through and fixed all the links so that they don't go to random pages. I'm not sure if all those bands should be there though, since I don't listen to crust as much as I would like, so I don't know too many bands. The Ungovernable Force 06:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

All of the references to Black Metal need to be removed. It has nothing to do with crust punk. Not anything apart from maybe a little bit aesthitically, it's a little bit similar, but crust is purely politically driven, black metal is all fantasy and vampires as far as I can tell.Ugly you

--Black metal is not all fantasy and vampires in all cases, it has more to do with "satan worship"

--None of the references to Black Metal should be removed because it has a lot to do with crust. Its an example how aesthetically, politically, and culturally crust punk is obviously punk but as far as the sound and the image it has a lot more to do with Black Metal. Listen to Scandi crust and then listen to Black Metal and you'll see a huge similarity. No, this isn't a Black Metal article but if a crust punk band is influenced by Black Metal or a famous Black Metal Musician (i.e. Fenriz) cites crust punk as an influence, it should be included. Exclusion is just puritannical "punker than thou" bullshit.Y.Pestis 11:04, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

yeah, but only musically, and it's pretty easy to immediately tell which is which, they have some similar guitar riffs but that's about it, I can't think of another similarity, and I take back the aesthetic thing now, wearing black, yeah, and maybe a tiny bit of artwork but you wouldn't mistake a crusty for a goth. Exclusion is probably a bad idea, but it should be made clear how small of an influence it is, it's older as far as I can tell for a start. It's like the difference between quorn and real meat, once you get a decent chance to compare the difference is huge.Ugly you

Somewhere the article should mention the influence the two genres have had on eachother. Both crust and Black Metal are blatantly atheistic/satanic in nature, at least asthetically, though Black seems to focus much more on "god hate" than crust does. Also, musically, they are akin. Crust sounds something like a dirty stripped down version of black metal and the vocals often tend to be similiar. Also, there is a noticable crust influence among a lot of black metal bands. Many black metal bands emphasize a stark DIY asthetic, complete disavowal of mainstream success, and a raw and unproduced sound. Granted, these are generally the very radical fringes of the movement, but it is notable nonetheless. 12.156.166.47 20:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I think black metal and crust have something of a common musical root in the influence from bands like Venom and Discharge; the latter in particular. Lyrically and thematically they're very different, but if you listen to early black metal like the first Burzum or Gorgoroth albums, you can hear the punk influence in the texture of guitar riffs and the "ambient" drummingJowe27 02:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CRUSTCORE

What about the mention of the "heavier"/ modern crust punk known as CRUSTCORE? I think some mention should be made. --67.182.43.100 08:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)Christopher Cole

I would like to add that crust (especially modern crust) as per the band TRAP THEM has been reviewed by a Revolver magazine journalist as the darkest, most aggressive evolution of hardcore (as in hardcore punk, but he probably didn't mean the same as todays hardcore like Hatebreed, but more along the lines of the fastest and most aggressive American anarchist punk with dark lyrics).66.122.165.197 19:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)Christopher Cole

Never heard of it, but feel free to make a few changes. --Switch 03:02, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Is there a difference? I don't listen to much crust, but I always thought crust and crustcore were the same. The Ungovernable Force 05:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I mean no disrespect but just like in philosophy, there are a hundred different labels for crust punk and I think "crust" pretty much does the trick.Y.Pestis 11:06, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Trap Them isn't crust. --70.19.207.64 00:11, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This page needs a MASSIVE revamp

This page is a mess and needs a major revamp. It is chock full of unsubstantiated claims and bizzare G.G. Allin references. As far as I can see the man had virtually nothing to do with crust other than a vaguely similar lifestyle (homeless,punk,poor hygiene). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by D-Raven (talk • contribs) 00:17, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] That stupid picture

That picture of "crust punks" needs to be deleted. It smacks of looking at people like in a zoo. I didn't want to delete it because I thought that rash but it's stupid and needs to be gotten rid of.Y.Pestis 21:16, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] OMFG! Antischism was speedy deleted!

To the barricades, to the barricades! Get out the molotovs! OK, maybe I'm overreacting, but Antischism was speedied under CSD7. Am I the only one who thinks that is crazy? Please nicely ask User:Llama man to reconsider. I've already started a thread on their talk. Ungovernable ForcePoll: Which religious text should I read? 08:46, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A definition of Crust by the media

I would like to add that crust (especially modern crust) as per the band TRAP THEM has been reviewed by a Revolver magazine journalist as the darkest, most aggressive evolution of hardcore (as in hardcore punk, but he probably didn't mean the same as todays hardcore like Hatebreed, but more along the lines of the fastest and most aggressive American anarchist punk with dark lyrics).66.122.165.197 19:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)Christopher Cole

Grindcore is a lot more aggressive, although not necessarily the darkest. Crust might be one of the darkest. Ungovernable ForcePoll: Which religious text should I read? 02:43, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it's hard to discuss the sound of crust other than that it's "heavy" and has a much greater metal influence (i.e. origins in Amebix, etc.) There's quite a difference in the sound between a band like Behind Enemy Lines and Extreme Noise Terror.--Y.Pestis 13:56, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Trap Them isn't even crust. --70.19.207.64 00:10, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anarcho-Punk + Speed Metal = Crust Punk (?)

It says at the beginning that Crust is the mix of Anarcho-Punk and Thrash Metal, but when Amebix was doing it, it was pre-Thrash Metal, which means that its mixed with Speed Metal, not Thrash Metal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.122.165.197 (talk) 18:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

You're thinking of more Stenchcore type bands. --70.19.207.64 00:12, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] .....

This article is worthless.

No jobs...no property...no hygiene...I suggest this article be renamed "filthy social parasites." -69.47.186.226 09:45, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be no part of the article about crustie hygene, or lack thereof. All the crusties I know can be located by their scent 30 miles away. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.248.9.78 (talk) 15:43, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

That is nothing but a stupid stereotype. I've known crusties, and they shower on a regular basis. Being a crust doesn't automatically make someone dirty and gross. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.173.149.57 (talk) 01:01, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Crusties are some of the smelliest and dirty people I have known in my life (apart from myself, of course...though I am no crustie, in addition to being unworthy of a Wikipedia article, unfortunately). I played guitar in a straightedge political punk band for 8 years, and watching some of the drunk crusties in the other bands on the bill vomit on themselves while performing on any given night was far from exciting. My "dirty underwear" and "foul odor" comments were most appropriate...and just because something hits a little too close to home does not make it vandalism. If I said that George Bush infrequently changes his underwear, that would be vandalism. A clean-cut, war criminal, straight-shooter there. I realize my comments were very generalized statements lacking references; however, most of the article lacks references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.248.164.214 (talk) 15:38, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

If you want to add funny shit like that, you will have to source it to have it stay. Murderbike (talk) 18:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe his nose is his source? Comedic dung is "where it's at." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.246.9.100 (talk) 02:38, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

"Smell 'em from 30 miles away." You HAVE to come to Encyclopedia Dramatica and create your own article on crusties. Wiki is not be the place for bashing crusties, but ED sure is! Groar! (talk) 19:31, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

DOOOOO IT! ENCYCLOPEDIA DRAMATICA NEEDS YOUR HELP!!!!!!!!! 192.133.12.108 (talk) 17:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)