Talk:Crush 40

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Contents

[edit] comment

Man, this article is screwed! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Titan50 (talk • contribs) 17:13, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Unless an expert can fix the various problems then yes, you might say that the article is "screwed". 71.222.65.178 (talk) 01:57, 8 December 2007 (UTC) Help in any way you can.

It isn't screwed anymore, it's fixed! Redphoenix526 (talk) 22:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Band Picture

How about having a picture of the band instead? Wouldn't that be more on the topic? Their first CD cover can go somewhere else there. Lord Falcon 05:37, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

je ne cest pas et je sui fran�ais mai ici impossible de lavoir alors je me sui resigner a le telecharger sur azeurus

I agree with Lord Falcon. Band Picture! If anyone has one, trash the cover of their first album and show us some Crush. Come on! Who cares about a piece of paper with a car on it, I want a pic of Crush 40. Or at least update it with a more recent album cover.

[1]

____

How about adding the picture of Johnny and Jun from the back of the album cover, "Crush 40". I'm suggesting this since Johnny and Jun are technically the only members of the band.

Correct me if I'm wrong here. Thanks!

Wick (talk) 01:18, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


I found a pic! It's up now. Redphoenix526 (talk) 02:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Good job, dude. --Wick (talk) 18:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nu bleed rock

What the heck is nu bleed rock? forget NU bleed rock, what is old bleed rock? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.161.137.174 (talk) 00:40, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

My question exactly. Whoever wrote this article isn't paying much attention to it's upkeep, and isn't answering questions, OR updating it, and I don't think even cited the new album. Good God, we all fell for {{or}}! Radman622 21:16, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

And by the way, if you don't know what something is..... look it up for God's sake! Were on fricking Wikipedia right now. Thats what this entire God damn site is for. Telling you what you don't know yet. So go right now to Nu bleed rock and you'll get some information about a sub genre of metal. (Who puts Classic rock and metal on the same album. Yet more proof that this alledged album doesn't really exist.) User:Radman622 18:22, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

That claim was made on their old myspace profile (which no longer exists). As I remember it, it was along the lines of "Crush 40 are currently working on our new album. It will be a mixture of nu bleed and classic rock". So it is the band's claim, although that was our only source. And no, I don't for a moment believe the album will feature classic rock, and I've never heard of nu bleed, although IMHO any album featuring both classic rock and metal would be awesome. Actually, isn't some metal considered to be classic rock? There's been no news on the new Crush 40 album in a long time, so it may have been a project they abandoned. RobbieG (talk) 19:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I wish the album was actually coming out, but generally, an album is released a couple of weeks to a couple of months after it's announced. The album was announced in June, and it's December, no album, no citation, no likelyness for one any time soon. Boo hoo, I think I'm gonna cry! User:Radman622 20:08, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Links

I've just fixed the link to the Crush 40 myspace page -Mintsoft

[edit] Discography, Genre, etc

where's all the info that most bands have? I'd fill this in, but I'm clueless about it MaKamitt 22:58, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Aparently nobody knows anything about Crush 40, and the author is just adding uncited false hopes on upcoming albums. I know very little too. And BTW, how can Jun live in San Franscisco if he's Japanese, and the music is like, recorded in Japan and all that? I'd be willing to bet that information is wrong, and based off of the fact that SA2B was developed in San Fransisco, and that the music for that game was recorded there. User:Radman622 18:25, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

He has a Japanese name and speaks Japanese, because he was raised in Japan. He moved to Panama when he was 12, moved back to Japan after finishing High School, and currently lives in San Francisco. Why is that so strange? Johnny Gioeli lives in America too, but they sometimes record in Japan because that's where Sega's recording studio is, and the other band members are Japanese. Several of their songs were recorded or partially recorded in America - for example, the vocal track for "Revvin' Up". It's not that weird! RobbieG 16:23, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Huh?

What on earth is a team cow!?Also, I agree with that guy who said that the CD is unavailable in most places, i've tried both amazon(.co.uk) and eBay and neither have it.--Centurion Ry

[edit] Falty Speculation

Jun said himself that he has not composed or created any song for the new Sonic game, so I deleted the speculation.

[edit] Why is this page dominated by sonic?

Crush 40 do make other songs you know, they aren't owned by SEGA. Why isn't there a list here of all of thier songs like on the pages about other bands?

they may not be owned by sega, but havnt all of there songs have appeared in sega games? 212.140.250.54 16:17, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

This page is dominated by Sonic because nobody can think of anything else that they really know about Crush 40. They're an obscure band, who does nothing outside of Sonic, and who has given out no information, and written like twelve songs, and who rock, but waste their potential doing nothing but putting out three or four new Sonic songs every two or three years. It's a shame really. User:Radman622 18:27, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

They did some songs for other games earlier in their careers, they released one album and they have an unfinished myspace page in the works. Apart from that, they pretty much do nothing but Sonic, so it kind of makes sense for Sonic to figure prominently. Incidentally, they haven't done much lately, even in Sonic games - they only performed covers in Sonic the Hedgehog, and weren't involved in Sonic and the Secret Rings. RobbieG 15:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

That's true, but Jun composed some stuff for Rivals 2. They are obviously still going to be involved with Sonic Team, but the very reason I wanted to believe that statement about the new album was true is because they aren't doing as much now, and I can just picture four band members just laying around for whole years doing nothing in music. They would want to do something else since Sega's kinda been stupid lately. They might have wanted to carve out a name for themselves aside from Sonic. Thus far, they have failed to do so, and that is extremely dissapointing. User:Radman622 04:01, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The page is dominated by Sonic due their contribution to the music in the Sonic games. However, Crush 40 have made an album of their own that is not in the Sonic games, so I am surprised it's not been spoken of. Wick (talk) 01:52, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] genre

i think we should add heavy metal to the genre because metal is one of the genres on their myspace and there heavyer songs like what im made of and i am all of me sound like metal. and i don't realy think they are punk rock 88.97.6.98 15:19, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Punk Rock? How about no. BreakerLOLZ 03:56, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I've never even heard a line in a Crush 40 song that even remotely sounded like Punk Rock. However, I don't think they are metal. They're like.... borderline metal. Hard Rock, Alternative, you know, the works. User:Radman622 18:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the genre should be whatever they added it as on myspace. That would be the official source. Wick (talk) 01:49, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Myspace pages are not Wiki Policy. Sorry. Find some citable info. However, for the time being, I suggest keeping the article as Hard Rock/Heavy Metal. There is not poit in listing a genre if the band has only done one song that falls under that genre(i.e. [[Inudstrial Metal, only one song falls under this, but it does not describe the bands genre in general), but all of their songs have fallen under some category of Hard Rock/Heavy Metal. BreakerLOLZ (talk) 04:43, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Crush 40 In Concert

Hey, I'm just wondering, since Crush 40 did a remix of His World in 2007, and All Hail Shadow for Sonic06 in 06, and they're supposedly releasing a (clears throat and sniggers) CLASSIC ROCK album sometime in 2007, are they currently doing concerts? If so, where? Japan? The US? If so, where there? What state? If so, is is expensive? I NEED TO KNOW IF I CAN SEE CRUSH 40 LIVE!

Yeah I'd like to see crush 40 live too. I cant find any information on the band let alone tour dates. I dont even know if crush 40 tours in the US —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.92.2.1 (talk) 01:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't even know where Crush 40 lives. I don't know if they live in Japan or in the US. Gosh, aparently nobody but them know anything about them. User:Radman622 18:29, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

You're not going to get to see Crush 40 live for now. Johnny Gioeli is currently touring with Axel Rudi Pell, Jun Senoue is still doing his JxJ project in Japan (as well as his job at SEGA), and the other members have commitments to other bands that they're currently filling. If you really want Crush 40 to tour, I guess you can make an online petition and send it to Jun Senoue, but that's about the best you can do for now. Redphoenix526 (talk) 17:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] hard to find

Crush 40 albums are incredibly hard to find in the US since they arent very well known outside of the sonic games. But since i first found out about the band in 2002 their music seems to have become more popular. I still cant find them on the shelves in most music stores, but their music is much easier to find online. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.92.2.1 (talk) 01:21, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

It's hard to even find them on eBay or amazon. Or at least it was when I last checked... Radman622 18:20, 14 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Radman622 (talk • contribs)

Yes it is hard to find the albums. The only two albums so far that have been released are the following:
Sons of Angels album - Thrill of the Feel
Crush 40 album - Crush 40
Just in case you were wondering who the Sons of Angels are...it's the older name for Crush 40.

Wick (talk) 01:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

  • Are they really that hard to find? I found them in less than two minutes with a search on Amazon.com. Maybe you guys should look a little closer, because I found both albums and all of the soundtracks that fast. User:Redphoenix526

Amazon has lists of products is HAS carried, even if it doesn't have them. It's not hard to find them on Amazon, it's hard to GET them. That's why I... ahem... "aquired" my Crush 40 music. Let's just say I didn't buy the CD... User:Radman622 07:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, uh, (cough, cough), so did I. Redphoenix526 (talk) 13:21, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This Newly Not Crap Article and What Was It's Serious Problems.

Do not remove these tags until the problems are solved. The problems need to be solved, not ignored. If the missing citations problem is not resolved by January 08, I will personally remove the material which has not been cited, and is in doubt. Either cite it or it's gone. That "their new album is coming out soon" info has been sitting there since June, and still no album release, and it's not cited. Take care of it, or it's gone. Also, someone needs to start paying more attention to this talk page. I garantee nobody will read this for two months, and I'll have already removed the uncited info, but then it'll be a lesson to all of you. Radman622 21:29, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Wow, somebody is on a angry power trip!  Doktor  Wilhelm  23:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Down at the influences section, Rap or whatever is shown as OR or CN, and it was up in genres. Questionable information should not be in the official band charts. Also, I just removed the trivia section, as everything in it either wasn't notable (Anyone who cares already knows Sonics theme in SSBB is Live and Learn) or OR (They have commonly been assosiated with this person or that person even though there's no citation and bla bla bla) So I deleted the whole thing, as trivia sections are not allowed on Wikipedia anyways. Alright people, it's November. Whoever put th e "New album coming out soon" info up in June had better get their sorry asses in gear and put up a citation, cause you've only got two months left before it's removed. (I'm being quite generous here, partially becuase this is such an obscure article, and partially because I wish it were true, and am mad that I've been kept needlessly hoping without info or proof for five months.) FIX IT OR IT'S GONE! And yes I am on an angry power trip, I've had some bad experiences on Wikipedia, and it's my observation that more things get done when I'm blunt, bold, merciless, and skeptical. User:Radman622 18:20, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Dang. Now that I reread this section, you really were on an angry power trip! Redphoenix526 (talk) 20:44, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Made a Few Changes

I've added some new information, including dicography and some history edits...plus some minor spelling corrections! If I forgot anything then I do apologise.

I would also like to say that I can add album covers for the albums if needs be - just thinking how or whereabouts I should add it. Might have to recreate those boxes I guess. Oh well.

Wick (talk) 03:56, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Added a reference to where Jun mentions the myspace page going wrong.

Wick (talk) 04:15, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Former Deletion Argument

This article has multiple problems, has failed to provide citations for many statements, has been badly in need of clean up and repair for over a year, and has failed to establish why it is notable. In addition to being the source of a hoax, this article has very few people editing it, and is not going anywhere fast. I propose it's deletion for these reasons. Please remember that this is NOT a vote, and it's deletion or inclusion will not be determined by how many posts for or against the article are made, but rather by the strength of the arguments which accompany those posts. When posting, please go down to a new line, type the star key (shift eight), then in bold put either "comment", "keep, "delete", "strong keep", "strong delete", etc. Followign this outline of your opinion, argue why you think so. If no arguments, or insufficient arguments to warrant it's inclusion in Wikipedia have been made by February, it shall be promptly deleted. Also, when posting here, ALWAYS sign your posts. User:Radman622 21:51, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

  • Strong Keep Crush 40 is a real legitimate band that has a following here in America. If I could have shown you their old Myspace page before it was hacked, you would've seen about 5000 friends to them on myspace alone. While their albums have never actually been released in America (because the self-titled Crush 40 album was released by Frontiers Records in Europe and the rest of their tracks are on Japanese soundtracks), they do have a following. In addition to this, their works in popular video games, especially in the Sonic the Hedgehog series of video games, are noteworthy parts of their respective games. I should try to find a site that reviews a couple of these games that has something to say about the music in order to prove this, but if you look around, you'll find it. It is their popularity and expanded work in video games, as well as their 2 individual albums and game tracks, that makes them notable. Now, I realize that the article has problems, and I'm trying to fix them. I'm really trying to fix the citations problem and the cleanup issues and I've already expanded the article's history section. I'm just having trouble finding citations for more recent stuff since they haven't released an album by themselves since 2003 (though there's all the soundtracks) and what I can find is usually on some site where several pages are in one link in the browser or some other screwy thing like that (if someone can please help me find citations for their later works, HELP!) It may be worthy of note that many of the citations I put up myself apply to one or more paragraphs, but since I'm not experienced at Wikipedia editing, I'm not sure if that's a proper format. Just take a look at the citations numbered 1, 2, and 3, and you'll see that 1 and 2 are a full paragraph of reference, and #3 is from all three paragraphs in that subsection. Other citations that weren't added by me, I can't tell you anything about those or uncited material in sections I haven't gotten to yet (I've really only worked on the history section). I've also tried to take down some of the original research, especially in the albums and genres section. I know a site that I can reference for the genres section to be more validated, but I can't cite it because of the several pages in one link problem. As for the whole "hoax" you claim with them releasing a new album, it really was up on their old myspace page, but since that site was hacked, it has not been placed up anywhere else and nobody really knows much about it for now, so for now there's nothing. If anybody out there wants to help me fix this page, please speak up! I'm not an experienced Wikipedia editor, but I've been trying to save the article with some rewriting, adding of citations, and so on. I see no reason to kill the article when it is notable (though it needs more rewriting to establish it) and can be repaired. I just don't have the experience to do it all by myself, though I'm trying to. User:Redphoenix526 01:22, 12 January 2008

TO Radman622: I put the above statement up on the afd discussion page, too. Crush 40 is notable, just it's not well established in the article's writing (though I'm trying to rectify the situation). I keep coming back and trying to cite more and more as I get stuff (and much of the article's text is cited right out of Jun Senoue's fan site from the same page.) I think there's hope for the article if I can get some help establishing notability. As I said, I'm not too experienced in Wikipedia editing, so I could use some help in establishing notability. The hoax part, well, no one's sure, but it's off the page now, and I'll keep it off. I'm also trying to tear down the original research and insert cited material, but it's not that easy seeing as the albums never had an actual American release (though people buy imported CD's from Amazon, search the albums and soundtracks there and you'll see they sell them.) I really think this article is notable enough to be on Wikipedia, and I could really use help, not a deadline, to improve it.

TO Redphoenix526: Obviously you are not so inexperienced, you have almost repaired the article to the point where I can remove the afd tag (When I put it up I forgot about all the improvements you had made, and so it's not really deserved anyways). However, that's the disturbing thing. You seem to think it's worth keeping (as do I, if we could repair it) but sadly, we're one of the few people who think so. I originally put up all those "problem" tags in order to draw experienced, possibly bored editors to fix the article. However, this has not happened, and most of the problems are resolved. I agree to work with you on this article, but I'm not satisfied that there are enough editors to keep the article alive at this point. Just you and me won't cut it. We need at least one more person commited to keeping this article (who will put there money where their mouth is, I've seen far too many Wikipedians who pledge to deliver and sit by doing nothing) and preferably two more before I remove the afd tag. However, in recognition of your determined work to save the article, I am bumping up the deadline to the end of March rather than the begining of February (15 days is hardly a fair amount of time to ask you to find editors for an article this obscure). I will help you, but I don't have password protected internet access, so I'm afraid you'll be the lone ranger on sources... which is precisely why we need more backup. I know a friend of mine who will help, but they shouldn't count as they are an inexperienced Wikipedian, and Crush 40 fan (Sorry Lorquin, but it's true). So, let's save an article! User:Radman622 07:14, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the extension, I'll try to find someone. I'm trying to work on the picture for the article, too. I figure the Crush 40 album picture can go somewhere in the middle of the article and I can find a picture of the members for the main picture. I've found one with both Johnny Gioeli and Jun Senoue, and given that they're the real committed ones behind Crush 40, I think it will work. Now, if I could only find the damn thing again...User:Redphoenix526

Unfortunately, you will never find a picture of ALL of them together. You know why? Because I heard that they don't even record their songs together. You can hear it if you have iTunes. Go to the Music Store and look up "Sonic the hedgehog". Scroll down to "SonicPOD". Listen to "Kyle-k Crush 40 rant". So, good luck on finding a whole band pic. If you haven't noticed, I asked the amin to quickly remove the afd tag, as it was somewhat mistakenly placed. So, rather than a deadline for deletion, I'm changing the deadline to, if at this point we cannot accomplish our goals, I will put up the "nominated for deletion" tag, which is much less harsh. 76.105.204.255 (talk) 06:56, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

For future reference the IP address 76.105.204.255 and I are one and the same user. User:Radman622 07:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I take it you forgot to log in, huh? Oh well, thanks for the note. But as I said, there's some pics with just Johnny and Jun, and I think that will do if I can find it. Supposably there's one on the back of the Crush 40 album... I'll take a look into it Redphoenix526 (talk) 16:55, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

VICTORY! The deletion tags have been removed for now. Redphoenix526 (talk) 21:21, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I saw! I can't believe it! I'm so happy! --Wick (talk) 18:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Are we...

Allowed to add a music sample of one of Crush 40's songs to the site? Cause I have a copy of almost all of their songs. I just don't know if it's possible or legal. Any of you guys know? User:Radman622 07:23, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

To Radman622: I found this on the Wikipedia Non-free content site (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Nonfree_content):

Music clips may be used to identify a musical style, group, or iconic piece of music when accompanied by appropriate sourced commentary and attributed to the copyright holder. Samples should generally not be longer than 30 seconds or 10% of the length of the original song, whichever is shorter (see Wikipedia:Music samples). User:Redphoenix526

I personally think that if we do use a music clip, it should be His World, as it is their newest, on of their better, and an excellent example clip. What do you think? User:Radman622 07:21, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Let's see. Crush 40's version of His World is 5:17, so we can use the full 30 second clip according to the rules (since that "comes first"). Sounds good to me, but see if in that 30 seconds you can get both part of the symphonic parts (with the rap verse) and the rock part. That way more can be shown off in less time. Redphoenix526 (talk) 13:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

There is a bit of a problem though... I have two music editing tools (I actually have three if you want to get technical) which I use. Sound Recorder (Programs:Accessories:Entertainment:Sound Recorder) which allows you to record, remix, and add effects to songs. I also have iTunes. However, I do NOT have Audacity, and the music must be in ogg format. Do you have audacity? (The application). If so, you can get His World off the iTunes Music store for free on The Sonic Show. User:Radman622 18:05, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I've got Audacity. It's free, you know, and not illegally. (http://audacity.sourceforge.net/download/) But I can make the sample if necessary. I may have to look up how to upload it, but I think I can take care of it. I've already got His World, let's just say I didn't buy the CD. Redphoenix526 (talk) 21:20, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reevaluation

If we can get the deletion tags removed and can clean up the article enough, I'd like to have the article reevaluated. It seems that it should be at least a level better than Stub-class. User:Redphoenix526

All right, we're on a roll! (Provided the administrator won't delete the article in which case, we're screwed. However, after the work you and me have put into it, I highly doubt that. I think that by my own judgement, we're almost to the point where we can remove the Notability tag. On the topic of reevaluation, maybe we can get a task force or wiki project (music, gaming, sega, who knows) to endorse the article? Who knows? However, I don't know how to formally request an evaluation. I do know how to do this though. (See top of this disscussion). User:Radman622 07:20, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

In case you hadn't noticed, I stuck my big nose where it belonged and requested a peer review, AND a status evaluation, so be can get Start or B class rating (anything is better than stub). The peer review will help us improve the article EVEN further. Unfortunately though, with an obscure band where most of the information is in the hands of the members... there's only so much you can do (maybe I should appeal to become a VG/Sonic community adminstrator... nah! I think I'll leave that to the Wikipedia pros) User:Radman622 20:28, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

lol you'd be a great administrator, and I can say that because I've read this whole talk page. I took a look at what is expected at each status rank, and the article is at least a B-class in my opinion. It may be GA worthy, but I seriously doubt it (probably because there's only so much we can cite and write about it.) Still looks good, and it makes me feel better about starting my next project, Jun Senoue's stub. And while I'm at it, I'm not sure if there's an image with anything to do with Crush 40 that wouldn't be violating copyrights. Of course, we could always use the fair use policy, but I haven't figured that out yet. Redphoenix526 (talk) 22:01, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Radman622 has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Cheers, and happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Thanks. But seriously, my general knowledge doesn't extend very far beyond music and games because... well... I've got a eighth grade education... cause I'm in eighth grade. Aren't administrators usually adults who know more stuff? Anyways, I'm not proud enough to nominate myself, and I'm not even sure if I want to be nominated. Anyways, the picture can wait for now. We have won the battle, so it is only a matter of time before we win the war. And by the way, GA... no. Sorry. B class... maybe. Probably. But if Shadow the hedgehog doesn't count for a GA, then Crush 40 doesn't either. This is not a "good" article, but a "not bad" article. Besides, going from almost deleted strait to good article just because of the work of two faithful editors? Not likely. User:Radman622 22:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, point taken. I already said I doubt it's GA class (and that takes a special application), but we've put a hell of a lot of work into this, and that was my point in that statement. Trust me, don't nominate yourself, that's egotism to the maximum. But hey, this article's a success story because of us and we can at least take pride in that. Redphoenix526 (talk) 22:26, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Since when did the Rock music WikiProject take part in this article? This is good news, as we'll have the article rated on both scales. Redphoenix526 (talk) 22:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, a project doesn't have to say it backs an article, any member can put up any article as part of any project. (Of course the article CAN and will be removed from the projects listings if it doesn't fit the description, so I chose a good one). See what kind of stuff you can learn about Wikipedia by poking your nose where it belongs? User:Radman622 22:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Trust me, it fits in the Rock Music WikiProject as well. I wonder how long the assessments will take. Do you know, Radman622? Redphoenix526 (talk) 22:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure. This is actually the first time I've done this sort of thing (i.e. nominating, requesting, reviewing, etc). Maybe a couple of days... maybe a month. Of course, if you ever have a question, you can type help with Dual brackets around it. You hopefully know how to make a "tag" by now right? Just type two of these {, and then some text, and then two of these }. If it is a legitimite template, such as smile, help, cleanup, or a userbox, etc, it will be shown in NON code on the actual page. Tags/templates often put the articles they are in in specific categories, which draw the attention of bored people who want to help out. So, watch this. Note: for your actual question to be answered, it might take a couple of days. {{help}} How long does an article assessment usually take?

It's usually done ASAP, but it depends on when someone gets around to doing it. Stwalkerster [ talk ] 22:34, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Redphoenix526's Recognition

Redphoenix, in recognition of your recent, and numerous contributions to the Crush 40 article, I would like to award you the imaginary Crush 40 Barnstar! Oh joy! lol! In addition, you shall recieve a prize of a years supply of pencil shavings! Happy day! User:Radman622 22:28, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, thank you, Radman622, I'm a little surprised, especially considering what's just below this page. But now that that's fixed, well, we'll see how things go. Redphoenix526 (talk) 01:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WP:VG Assessment

Hi, I'm here from WP:VG/A. As this seems to be the first assessment the editor(s) above have requested, I'll just explain what I do here. As is usual with an assessment from the video game project, I'll give you some points I noticed while assessing this article, as an explanation for it's rating. We don't have a checklist (like WP:Good article has) or anything, so we rate articles according to how close to perfect they are. That's why most of the points below are negative.

  • The lead section may need a rewrite. See WP:Lead section. "Band" is plural, for one, so it would be "Crush 40 are". Some terms in the lead section are peacock terms. For example, "best known for x" may be better phrased as "the bulk of their discography consists of x". It's more objective. The last sentence is just someone's opinion, it seems. Make sure the lead section summarises the article, too. Currently, there's nothing in there on their style or the albums/soundtracks/records they released.
  • Copyright violation. The first six paragraphs of History are copy-pasted from [2]. The rest is a copyright violation of [3]. This is illegal, and could possibly get this article deleted. Worse is, that it's not really awesome either. I would have lots of comments on the style and tone, as well as the referencing, of this section, if it were to stay. This obviously needs to be rewritten.
  • There's not much else. The tables are informative, but lists and tables generally do not count towards "encyclopaedic content".
  • As a tip, to rebuild the history section, you need independent sources. Perhaps use some of the reviews of Sonic games? There must be something about the music in there, and many of those count as reliable per WP:RS.

I will keep the "stub" rating here, because without the history section.. there's not much left. For further comments, please respond on this page. If I do not respond within a few days, try my talk page. User:Krator (t c) 23:59, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Can you do me a favor and explain how it's a copyright violation if we're citing the source? Seriously, this isn't being sarcastic and nasty, it's a legitimate question. It'll be rewritten anyway but can you explain it? Redphoenix526 (talk) 00:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Now matter what, content is NOT to be copied from one website, and pasted onto Wikipedia. I know you didn't do it intentionally, but I'll have to basicly rewrite the entire History section. The issue WILL be resolved, but next time, write an original history section BASED off of information you find, not USING information you find. Does that make sense? Wikipedia can be thought of like a research paper. Cite your sources, and don't plagerize. 76.105.204.255 (talk) 00:45, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I've already got it taken care of, probably to the point where we can remove that label you put up, Radman. Now I didn't do all of the listed paragraphs, but I'll admit to a few of them. I'm sorry, I guess I didn't realize that I wasn't making my citations clear enough, as it certainly wasn't my intent to plagiarize. I'm going to go ahead and take down the tags about that, but if you don't think it's right yet, go ahead and put them back up. If you catch anything else, then feel free to get it, or tell me, and I'll get it. Redphoenix526 (talk) 00:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I paraphrased/rewrote most of the sentances in the history section and replaced nearly every other word with a synonymous one, deleting entire unchangable or irrelivent secions. That's okay Redphoenix, that's the way you LEARN. It wasn't your sources that were wrong, but that you copied the information off the website rather than making statements based upon the information on the website. But hey, that's what assessments and peer reviews are for, right? Yes, we PROBABLY have it taken care of now, but I'm going to wait awhile and make some more improvements before I relist it for reevaluation. User:Radman622 01:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I went back and did some rewriting, too (maybe some you missed?). Yeah, note to self not to make assumptions without reading more into the rules and how things work. But I'll agree on waiting for reassessment. We got some really good tips from the reviewer, and I think we actually have a direction to move in now. Well, that means we've both learned something with this article, myself about plagiarism on Wikipedia and you about listing an article for deletion too soon. Eh, all fixed now. I'll keep working on this, but I think I'm going to start on the Jun Senoue page and see if I can improve that article. Redphoenix526 (talk) 01:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Note the important distinction between "copying information" (with citing sources) and "verbatim copying text". Information is not copyrighted (patent law applies there, and Wikipedia can still write about patented things), but text is. User:Krator (t c) 05:55, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, my apologies then. I actually didn't put up most of that text, but I put up the citations for that text. Redphoenix526 (talk) 18:44, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese Links

After looking through a lot of the links to Japanese Wikipedia pages, I noticed they all linked to the page about Takeshi (using Google Translator). So not only did I fix those links, I translated them into English so they can be read (this is English Wikipedia, am I right?). I'd like to know from anyone if this, in your opinion, improves the quality of the article. Redphoenix526 (talk) 02:45, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Another Assessment

I'm pretty sure no one's reading this right now, but I've put the article up again for reassessment. There's been a lot of improvements, and I want to see if we can get it higher than Stub-class. Redphoenix526 (talk) 05:29, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

FYI, I'll do an assessment in a few days. User:Krator (t c) 14:39, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Krator. I think there's been some significant improvement in the past couple of weeks since you last reviewed the work of myself and Radman622. Redphoenix526 (talk) 13:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WP:VG Assessment 2

Read the introduction of the last assessment if there is a need for introduction.

  • The article sometimes reads like a biography of its frontman, "Jun Senoue", especially the section called "Beginnings at SEGA..". This is partly due to the style, and partly because his website appears to be the most important source for the article. I'll deal with sourcing below, but the biographical style deserves some attention too. The main thing that's wrong with it, is the focus on Senoue, instead of the band, e.g. the very first sentence of the section.
  • This article does something that's almost as bad as the copyright violation before, but hey, learning is good! This is the combination of three important bad things: 1) Inline external links are bad. 2) Machine translations are bad and 3) Using Wikipedia as a source is bad. This article includes many links to google translations of the Japanese Wikipedia. None of these can stay, not even in another format. I can defend the following with crystal clear and solid argumentation if you want be to, but to stay concise, I'll keep it short. Wikipedia is a bad source for Wikipedia itself and should never be cited in an article. It's basically saying "because we say so", and does not give the reader any indication of reliability. Google translations are bad, if you cite Japanese, use the original Japanese link. Finally, external links should only appear in "References" or "External links" sections.
  • You can link specific sections of articles without using external links. Use the format [[Article name#Section|The section of article name]], e.g. [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games#Departments|The Departments of WikiProject Video games]]
  • For the claims made in the "genres" section, you need sources, such as reviews for the games. This is because we are not allowed to do Original research on Wikipedia, as we're a tertiary source, meaning we base our articles upon other sources. Common sense also comes in here: no one knows whether the opinion of a random Wikipedia editor on musical style of a certain band is authoritative or even true. You need, say, IGN's reviewer for that, as he's qualified. To find those sources, check the articles on the games themselves.

I am rating this Start-class because of the above problems. User:Krator (t c) 18:11, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, thanks Krator. At least now I have a direction to move the article in. Redphoenix526 (talk) 18:29, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, but I honestly don't know how I could help with this. I'm not much of a good citations finder, and I don't even know how to format or remove them on Wikipedia. I'll try to keep helping tho. As u may hav noticed, I've been gone for a while, collaberating on various other projects. I would be happy to become a member of your new Sega thingy. User:Radman622 22:18, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Hey, glad to see you're back. I'll work on the citations, don't worry about that. I took care of most of the problems above already, and if I actually put some time into it, I could find some sources, too. Maybe when I've got some free time. Redphoenix526 (talk) 00:46, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, since I'm now part of your Sega thingy, I could use a direction to move in from one of the council members i.e., you. Already this year and part of last year me and a couple other Wikipedians gave the majority of the char articles serious facelifts, and for the better too. I don't know a whole lot about a whole lot of the GAMES themselves tho, so I could use some advise on where to rant (just kidding). Once more, I would like to congratulate the both of us for saving and considerably improving this aricle. 76.105.204.255 (talk) 21:48, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, which ones do you want me to look at? I'll take a look into them. Speaking of the characters, get ready to say goodbye to most of them: TTN reopened the discussion on a merger, and he's winning majorly. He wants every character with the exception of Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Shadow, and Metal Sonic fused into one list and reduced. This includes minor character lists, too. And he's winning right now at the Video Games discussion on it.Redphoenix526 (talk) 00:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Please God, let Robotnik be spared his merging wrath. Well, some of my current "motivations" are to get Sonic's character article as a "featured" article, and get Shadow's to "good" article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Radman622 (talk • contribs) 16:38, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, we're off the hook for now. TTN has been prohibited from deleting, merging, or redirecting for six months ;-), so that's great. By the way, Radman, Sonic is probably about to get delisted from being a "good" article because of its problems. Red Phoenix (Talk) 00:51, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] MySpace

Their official MySpace is back up Redphoenix, and that could be a huge help to you on your quest for sources. 76.105.204.255 (talk) 00:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I know their official MySpace is back up, I happen to be a friend of the band there ;-). But MySpace is a blacklisted link, so I don't see how it could help. Redphoenix526 (talk) 16:46, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
It mentions their supposedly to be released album in 2008. Yea, they've been saying that since Summer 2007. I was just saying that you could re-add the part about the upcoming album with their MySpace as a source I suppose, but we might want to simply wait until the CD comes out and add it to the diskography. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.105.204.255 (talk) 19:47, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I can't add MySpace as a source. It's a BLACKLISTED LINK, which means it can NEVER be used as a source. This is what I was trying to tell you. It was a good thought, but it's not going to work. And where is it on that page where it mentions the album? I can't find it. Redphoenix526 (Talk) 02:58, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Message and questions to Krator

I left this here because I know you prefer comments on article talk pages. Anyway, I've got a question for you. I've been trying to keep improving this article per your suggestions in the two assessments the article has had, as well as keeping up with my job being pretty much the only person who runs WP:SEGA/A (no, I didn't assess this article for that department). I've been trying to search for sources for the "Musical Style" section (formerly Genres) upon your recommendation, and I've drawn a blank, it seems. I was wondering, would putting up a brief sample of the music named in the section provide the necessary evidence? I know how to do it properly, as I'm the one who put up the sample of "Live and Learn" to make an example of the earlier style of Crush 40, and I know the guidelines for providing samples on Wikipedia. I'm thinking one for each of the ones listed, making two additional samples (or three, I was thinking of mentioning "What I'm Made Of..." for its unique traits in the section), but I don't know if that's an absurd amount for this article or not. Anyway, after all of this is done, or if I have to find sources and I end up turning them up, I'd like to have the article assessed a third time by WP:VG/A. Thanks for your time and your help in developing my editing skills. Redphoenix526 (talk) 17:36, 2 March 2008 (UTC) Addition: Another reason that I'm a little skeptical about adding more music samples is because of the amount of fair use items that would be linked to the page. Now I'm not one who thinks fair use items should be limited in articles IF they legitimately qualify as fair use, but I know many other editors try to limit the fair use content. Redphoenix526 (Talk) 01:43, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that your supposed to have very many music samples on a single page. I think that rule is to keep people from making a song into a "listen to it for free in thiry second segments", or something dumb like that that violates copyright anyways. I think two or maybe three would be the maximum acceptable musical samples and NO a musical sample is NOT a source to a statement on genre. A musical sample being used to prove a statement on genre is dependent on interpretation by the listener, and because of that, this brings in listener POV, and music tastes, and interpretation of something is speculation. You must have TEXT or photographic sources. You could add another sample though. I suppose the sample would be more useful as a source to the "Crush 40's style has changed over the years" statement than the genre statements. 76.105.204.255 (talk) 19:52, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
That's part of it. I wanted to bring in some samples to show how the change has occurred (I've already got 27 seconds of Live and Learn up as an example of their early works). I'd like to see what Krator has to say about this, though, for another opinion. Redphoenix526 (Talk) 03:01, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Some quick things, I only have a couple of minutes right now:

  • The references could use date, author, and publisher data, see {{cite web}}.
  • To conserve space, the two tables in Discography could be displayed side by side.
  • "Continued work with Sega" and "Musical style" have a lot of short paragraphs. Try condensing them.
  • Bolding the names of people who don't have their own article is usually not done.

User:Krator (t c) 11:39, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Would italicizing those names be better? Or should I just leave red links or no formatting whatsoever? Thanks for taking a quick look, I'll get fixing the problems right away. I hope to have this article listed at WP:GAN by the end of March. Redphoenix526 (Talk) 18:37, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
No formatting whatsoever (no red links too) is the way to go. I think you should go for GAN by now, as I've reviewed this article too often to provide any good feedback honestly. The reviewer will probably bring up a concern about independent sources. If so, hit him/her on the head with a quote from WP:SELFPUB: "Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources in articles about themselves". User:Krator (t c) 21:58, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Hey, thanks for the tip and the help. Red Phoenix (Talk) 00:24, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I've upgraded the article to B for the video game project, per the request for assessment, but I'm not sure what improvements to suggest since Krator has already discussed this with contributors here. Good luck with the GA. Someoneanother 12:57, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, we'll need it. Red Phoenix (Talk) 16:31, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Oh, crap...

I just took a look at the sources that I used for the four track listings for the soundtracks in the article from Game Music Revolution (www.gmronline.com, sources 7, 8, 9, and 10) and on closer inspection I found an "edit" button on each of those sources, which means the sources are unreliable. It's a shame, since I was just using them for citing the track listings and that Wave Master Entertainment was the record label. Now, for one of them I found a different track listing that I can use (source 12, the Sonic Stadium site, though it doesn't cite Wave Master), but for the other albums, the only other track listings I can find are from sites that are selling the albums, and I'm pretty sure I can't use those. What can I do in this situation and what could I use in this case? I need help with this now, because this article is listed at WP:GAN and this has to be solved before the article is reviewed. I don't want to remove the article from the WP:GAN listing if at all possible. Red Phoenix (Talk) 18:20, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

There's no reason you cannot cite a site that is selling a product about what the product contains. If they say that it contains Foo, Bar, and Baz, that's OK, there isn't much of a COI. However, if they say that Foo allows the owner to do magic and get hot girls, it probably isn't reliable in that case. ffm 21:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I thought that violated WP:ADVERTISING to do that. But I'll take your word for it. Red Phoenix (Talk) 00:18, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Apologies to the GA Reviewer

Hello. To whomever you may be when you choose to review this article for GA consideration: recently, I stumbled upon a massive error in the article and had to make some major editing to fix it. I still want it considered for GA status as it is, and I ask that you not quick-fail the article because I have been messing around with it. It is officially ready now and shouldn't require any more major edits. Thank you. Red Phoenix (Talk) 00:42, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] LOCE

I should probably remove that League of Copyeditors request, no one's going to copyedit it and I've really done most of it myself, just going back and proofreading again. Red Phoenix flame of life...protector of all... 22:56, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

Overall, this is a decent article, it just needs a little bit of work to get it to GA status. Below are my suggestions:

  • I'm a little worried about the reliance on first-party sources, namely Jun Senoue's own website. Do you think any of the facts that were cited to his website could swapped with in-lines from other sources?
  • I can try, but sources about Crush 40 are very limited mostly because they have no actual mainstream releases. Also, anything else that I found was not a reliable source. Red Phoenix flame of life...protector of all... 00:00, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh, hey, about this, I know it doesn't help, but actually the person who's done most of the reviewing of this article for the Video Games project told me to hit you on the head with a quote from WP:SELFPUB about this issue. Scroll up to the "Message and questions to Krator" section and read the lower half. Red Phoenix flame of life...protector of all... 03:48, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Good point. I would however, point out the, according to SELFPUB, it's ok to use self-published source as long as "the article is not based primarily on such sources." You're not in the danger zone yet, but 18 citations is close. It's ok to have 1st party sources, but preferable to have 3rd party sources, So my recommendation is to try and swap out other sources whenever a particular fact can be attributed to a different source. Just a suggestion, not a requirement of the review, but better safe then sorry, right?
True. I'm always trying to find stuff, but I just can't. I'm going to keep looking as hard as I can, though.Red Phoenix flame of life...protector of all... 00:50, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Overall, the prose needs a bit of a copyedit. I've pointed out the bigger issues below, but I think it would benefit the article a great deal to have a new set of eyes tweak the language around. This isn't a GA requirement, just a suggestion.
Fair enough. Hopefully that happens eventually.
  • The lead does not summarize all of the article's major points. At the minimum, the lead should mention each section.
  • I think Radman622 wrote the lead before he seemingly disappeared, and I haven't copyedited the lead in a while. I've given the lead a cleanup, but writing lead sections is the weakest part of my Wikipedia editing skill, so I could use some more pointers from this. Thanks. Red Phoenix flame of life...protector of all... 00:44, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Here's what I do to make a lead section: first, make sure there's at least one sentence the mentions something from every section/subsection. Second, make sure every fact in the lead is mentioned somewhere else. And that's it. So, using that formula, the lead still needs at least one sentence about their musica style, a list summing up their discography (just list both main albums), and a sentence from "Several changes and Crush 40" and "Continued work with Sega". And then make sure you mention "NASCAR Rubbin' Racing" somewhere in the article itself, since it's only in the lead right now. And that's it.
NASCAR Rubbin' Racing is NASCAR Arcade, so I think I might just either reword that or change it. Thanks for the tip, I'll get working on it. Red Phoenix flame of life...protector of all... 00:50, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Y Done "The band has released two albums as of now, and is one of the more notable bands employed by Sega to play music for the Sonic the Hedgehog series." is a little awkward for a few reasons. "as of now" is a little weird. Also, it's slightly POV-ish to state that the band is notable or more notable than other bands.
  • The "as of now" was because a few months ago we had a problem with an uncited statement saying Crush 40 would release a new album in 2008. It was cited through their old MySpace, which since collapsed, and the info disappeared with it. There's no reason it should be there now, though. I won't mark this off unless you think I've fixed it, so when you look over the article, you can mark this off if you approve. Red Phoenix flame of life...protector of all... 00:00, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Looks good.
  • Y Done "From this point on" has a similar problem.
Looks good.
  • Y Done "Crush 40's beginnings start with guitarist Jun Senoue" odd tense ("start").
  • Rephrased that statement, should have fixed that line.
  • Y Done Since this is an encyclopedia, avoid calling people by their first names. First time they're mentioned state their full name, then in later mentions just their last name (or in this case family name).
  • Y Done Videogame titles should be in italics. Same with album titles. Song titles should be in quotations.
You missed Daytona USA: Championship Circuit Edition, NASCAR Rubbin' Racing, Sonic the Hedgehog.
Thanks, there were a bunch and I was in a hurry (real life event). I'll get that fixed. Red Phoenix flame of life...protector of all... 00:50, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Y Done "Hirotsugu Homma from Loudness playing the drums, and Naoto Shibata, also from Loudness, as their bassist" could be reworded to something like "Hirotsugu Homma and Naoto Shibata from Loudness, playing the drums and bass respectively."
  • Y Done Titles of sections should only capitalize proper nouns and the first word of the title. So "Continued Work With Sega" should be "Continued work with Sega", "Several Changes and Crush 40" should be "Several changes and Crush 40", etc.
  • Y Done The discography is good, but I think it could (should) be expanded a bit. For an example of something similar that I worked on once, take a look at David Candy. Basically, the point is, if the albums don't necessitate their own articles, then just treat a little section of this article like a normal album article, ie with an infobox, cover art, brief explanation, etc.
  • I've got one of the two album covers already on the article to illustrate Crush 40's interest in racing music earlier. If I use it for an infobox as well, do I need to modify the fair use rationale? Thanks for the suggestion, by the way. I took it a step further and put the other tracks and the gameography and put them in organized sortable tables. Red Phoenix flame of life...protector of all... 03:45, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
The tracklistings still need a little work (usually only hip-hop albums require the use of tables. Take a look at WP:Album or even Ghosts I–IV for some tips. Also, there should only be one instance of copyrighted material in an article, and I'd say it serves a better purpose in the discography than the article. I would take it out of the history stuff since it really doesn't add much.
  • Y Done In the Artists section, I would recommend renaming it to Band members. Also, their names shouldn't be italicized, and there should be a medium dash (not a short dash) in between their name and instruments. ie – not -.
  • Y Done "In their album "Crush 40", the band's style was referred to as" the album was described within the album was it? Also, attribute the source of the quote when talking about who said what.
  • Y Done Both music samples are their under very questionable fair-use. At minimum, the prose needs to at least mention the songs being sampled, and ideally the prose actually discusses how they are relevant examples of the band's music.
  • Well, the captions mention their use. I've edited the prose to mention "Live and Learn" and a bit about it. ("What I'm Made Of..." was already mentioned with information about its style.) I'd like to ask you if you think that's better and can be marked off, as I don't want to call it done if it's not.
Captions aren't enough, but it looks good now. You can put both of them in the same box though. See The Make-Up for an example. Or you could incorporate it into the prose itself. See Nine Inch Nails to see how to do that. Either way would be good.
Thanks, I'll do that. That was a pain in the ass for me to keep it organized when I first added the samples. Red Phoenix flame of life...protector of all... 00:50, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Y Done None of the citations give publisher values.
  • Actually, the booklet citations cited Wave Master Entertainment, the CD publisher, as the booklet pubisher. The web sites, however, didn't. That's fixed now. Red Phoenix flame of life...protector of all... 00:23, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

And that's it. I know that's alot of bullet points, but alot of them are fairly minor fixes. I've put the article on hold, which gives you 7 days to work on my suggestions above. When you feel you've addressed my concerns or if you have any questions, feel free to drop me a line. Good luck! Drewcifer (talk) 23:02, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Looking much better, but still needs a bit more polishing. Drewcifer (talk) 22:48, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I figured it did. Thanks for the look, though.

Looks good! Since the copyedit request seems to have gone unfulfilled, I went ahead and did a quick one myself. It still needs a more thorough pass, but it does look better. That said, all of my concerns have been addressed, and I'd say the article is clearly GA status. Good work! Drewcifer (talk) 20:44, 20 April 2008 (UTC)