Talk:Croydon facelift

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Croydon facelift was proposed for deletion. This section is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. Further comments can be made in further sections, of the talk page. The result of the debate was KEEP. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
  • Delete. Neologism, only found at define-your-own sites and their mirrors. Susvolans 14:27, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Wikipedia is not a dictionary of slang. Katherine Shaw 15:41, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. It's not a complete wiki-neologism. I've heard it used out there in real life, in the UK. However, Wikipedia is not a dictionary of slang; save this stuff for urbandictionary.com. -- GWO 15:47, 5 Oct 2004 (UT
  • Keep. It's not a web-only neologism at all, as the nominator asserts. It's verging on the dicdef. But it's got reasonable detail so far and could grow - David Gerard 16:16, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep - I also feel it has potential. Before creating this article I had come across this term in both the media in the UK and in print. -- Graham ☺ | Talk 16:41, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. What the two keeps above me said. --Tagishsimon
  • Transwiki to Wiktionary, with a 'slang' and/or 'local' indication. - KeithTyler 17:41, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC) 17:16, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. As far as British slang goes, this is one of the more notable ones. [[User:Xezbeth|Xezbeth ─┼─]] 17:43, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Interesting item of British popular culture. _R_ 18:17, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Transwiki to Wiktionary. I see no possibility of expansion past a dicdef (a discussion of the meaning and usage of a word or phrase). Rossami 20:27, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Yet another one of those misconceptions about poor old Croydon and its put-upon citizens. Dieter Simon 21:32, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Weak keep. Searching in Google Groups on the exact phrase does get 21 Google hits, mostly legitimate usage in the sense defined in the article. So I think it's not a neologism, just obscure. By the way, see also LEGAL AGREEMENT SETS SCENE FOR CROYDON FACELIFT for a different usage. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 22:25, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • That's a generic use of "facelift" though. - KeithTyler 23:05, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)
      • I guess I wasn't clear. I thought it was mildly interesting to see that it did appear in a straightforward context. It could be considered as very, very weak evidence against inclusion, because if "Croydon facelift" were very widely or commonly understood to mean an uncomplimentary reference to a kind of tight hairdo, the headline writer might have avoided using that particular phrase. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 13:46, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
        • You're right, very good point. Hmm. - KeithTyler 17:16, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. It's (just about) more than a definition as it adds usefully to info on Croyden. Whether that's fair on Croyden or not is POV only, as the phrase undoubtedly exists in the wild. Naturenet 11:57, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep, seems to be real. Thue | talk 21:54, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. It's an actual term, not merely a neologism, and the article goes beyond simply providing a definition. Factitious 06:50, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)
  • keep or merge with chav --[[User:Bodnotbod|bodnotbod » .....TALKQuietly)]] 20:05, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep if it's true. Gamaliel 21:10, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Not because it's offensive to the people of Croydon (after all, nobody forces us to live in the arse end of Greater London), but because it really doesn't merit its own article and could easily be summarised on a list of slang terms or something similar. -- Gregg 23:10, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Graham ☺ | Talk 00:57, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC) Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Image requested

I find nothing in Google or Yahoo. --Error 19:44, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm moving the header to the top of the page. --Viriditas 04:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Done. Rklawton 00:13, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

How is this any different from a ponytail? -Branddobbe 03:19, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

The emphasis is on the hair being pulled back to the extent that it tightens the facial skin around the forehead and flat parts of the temples, as opposed to hair merely tied back into a bunch. Why Croydon? Nobody knows. It has been given an undeserved reputation over the years as an overbuilt concrete tangle which then reflected adversely on the dress habits of its inhabitants. Dieter Simon 22:03, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I think what Dieter is trying to say is that it is a ponytail. - Abscissa 20:24, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
No, you idiot. As Dieter explained, the point is that the hair is so tight that it pulls the skin with it, often slightly distorting the eyes giving them a kind of mock-oriental look. The picture here doesn't quite do justice to the extreme variety. You'll know it if you see it. On another matter, can we move this to scrapeback which is a common name around the country. "Croydon facelift" sounds specific to London - I've never heard it and as you can imagine, people outside London wouldn't use it as the Croydon connotation is not understood. 86.136.0.145 23:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd never heard 'scrapeback'. I've always known it as a council facelift. Icundell 22:28, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Essex facelift

Before we get into an edit war over whether this is known as an Essex facelift or not (it was recently removed by one user just to be put back by another) do we have a reference that this is sometimes referred to by that name? -- Roleplayer 14:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I found 700+ Google hits for Essex facelift with no mention of Croydon facelift. ("Essex faclift" -"Croydon facelift"). The toplisted link was from the Times Educational Supplement and dated today.[1]Rklawton 20:43, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Brewer's Britain & Ireland has an entry for 'Croydon facelift - '...scraped back so tightly into a ponytail that it pulls back the skin on the wearer's cheekbones...'. There is no such equivalent entry for 'Essex Facelift'. It does seem to exist but it needs a source as 'Croydon facelift' has. Martín (saying/doing) 21:02, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that an awful lot of the Google and Yahoo websites are Wikipedia mirror sites all of which refer to our own page. You really need to go through the websites whether they have anything original to say (often of course the sample sentences give an indication of the original Wiki article). As for 700 Google hits for E. F. as opposed to none for C. F., I really would take this with a pinch of salt. Dieter Simon 01:04, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean by a pinch of salt? Can you explain your logic a bit better? Our article references both Essex and Croydon. A search that turns up only Essex couldn't be a mirror or it would also reference Croydon. Run the search yourself. And the top-most listing certainly isn't a mirror. [2] Rklawton 02:15, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
What do I mean by a pinch of salt? Look at your first page of Google, after having entered "Croydon facelift" "Essex facelift" (together) and you will find the first website is Wikipedia with the introductory para starting "In English slang a Croydon facelift sometimes Essex facelift Council facelift or..." Out of the ten websites on the first Google page seven websites start exactly the same way as the Wiki page: "In English slang a Croydon facelift sometimes Essex facelift Council facelift or..." They are in fact copies of Wikipedia's article. They are not separate entities, they are one and the same thng under different names. So that's seven out of ten you could under no circumstances call different articles. That's what I meant by spuriously counting up websites citing "Croydon facelift" and in the same breath "Essex facelift". So, it means nothing because the whole caboodle is one and the same article. Yes? Dieter Simon 00:04, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey, since when has Vicky Pollard had a croydon facelift? Never! Catherine Tate's character Lauren maybe... and a tv personality famous for having a Croydon facelift was Michelle Bass from UK Big Brother 5. Maybe if someone han find a picture of her? TETRISROCK

[edit] Image

I've deleted the "Moscow blah blah blah" The style pictured is clearly a ponytail, and the hair isn't pulled back. --Bicycle repairman 01:53, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

The general idea here is one of continuous improvement. If you've got an image you think more "relevant", then by all means add it. However, taking away the only image this article has does nothing to improve it. Rklawton 02:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
How an image of a young woman supposedly taken in Moscow can illustrate an article about Chav culture is beyond me. I do not have a "better image" but I believe that using an unsuitable one is a lazy excuse. If you made this photo and liked it - just say so. But you can't honestly claim that it illustrates the page about "Croydon facelift". Anyway, what do I care. --Bicycle repairman 02:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I thought this was an article about a hair style. Is it the word "Moscow" that bothers you? Rklawton 03:22, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Surely there's someone out there with long hair and a digital camera who can create an image of this. --Helenalex (talk) 01:23, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no move (in addition, the ghits for the two phrases, with Wikipedia omitted, give 10:1 ratio for the current title). Duja► 07:36, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Croydon facelift → Essex facelift — Because it gives a untrue and bad NPOV message that Croydon is full of chav's and council estates when this is simply not the case —Pafcool2 16:27, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

[edit] Discussion

Any additional comments:

I've recrested that this page be moved to Essex facelift or as a IP adress user said earlier Scrapeback because "Croydon facelift" sounds specific to London - I've never heard it and as you can imagine, people outside London wouldn't use it as the Croydon connotation is not understood.. The change is for the simple reason that this way the article is more notable. Essex is noticed as a mauch more chavy place, and I feel that this articles name is NPOV towards Croydon, giving the misconception that Croydon is chavy when it's mainly not. Residents of Croydon wouldn't want this bad name on an encyclopedia, although i'm not saying residents of Essex would either, but this place is much larger (and if I say so, has a bad reputation in this feild than Croydon). As Dieter Simon said above, Yet another one of those misconceptions about poor old Croydon and its put-upon citizens. Pafcool2 16:27, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Support - Because of all the reasons I expressed above. Pafcool2 16:27, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
      • The trouble is, Pafcool, that in the meantime developments have taken place which do actually seem to support the term "Croydon facelift", and I am sorry having to report that. None other than our Croydon Guardian has a reference to Queen Nefertiti who might well have been a Croydon resident with her "C. F." [3] and unfortunately the term has also made the pages of the "Urban Dictionary". All this may well be seen in "croydon facelift" (with quotes)if you google or yahoo. As much as I, as a Croydon resident myself would like to agree with you, language has once again its own way of defeating our well-meaning opinions. It looks to me we shall have to prove it to them that Croydon is far superior to them in spite of it. (;-|) Dieter Simon 01:02, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Having said all that, Pafcool, I do congratulate you on your excellent work on the Croydon articles, please do continue doing the good work. Dieter Simon 21:59, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Sorry, about my misspelling of your name. Dieter Simon
  • Oppose - I live in London, however, it isn't specific to London. It is specific to that area of London. Essex has much less chavs than Croydon. Essex actually has a lot more punks. The chav counterculture tends to centre on areas mainly around Croydon, Bromley, and Sussex. Reginmund 04:46, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Totally undeserved reputation

  • Croydon is Chavtown It's the Chav capital of the South. Chavdon, I mean Croydon, should be proud to have a hairstyle named after the town, it's the only thing Croydon has ever contributed to British culture. If the name of this article is changed, Croydon will have no claim to fame. 172.215.159.125 05:19, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Please don't mistake the acknowledgement of an encyclopaedic fact (re Croydon facelift), for an acknowledgement of the reputation the town has undeservedly received over the past. Croydon is one of the most integrated towns in the UK, and is continuing and planning to continue to enhance its environment in future. Dieter Simon 22:16, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent images did not really show what is meant by a Croydon facelift

The recent images which have since been removed did not really demonstrate what a Croydon facelift looks like, namely the tight pulling back of the hairline from the temple and forehead which leaves the facial skin very taut. Though the girl(s) were very pretty, you didn't really get an idea what it is all about. Dieter Simon (talk) 01:05, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Did the Ancient Egyptians Settle in Croydon ?

I've always felt there is something otherworldly about the Immigration & Nationality Department at Lunar House, but until now, I could not quite put my finger on it... Streona (talk) 13:17, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Well there is evidence of the ancient Egyptian god Anubis being worshipped in Leicester from archeological digs, so I suppose anything is possible... -- Roleplayer (talk) 16:31, 25 February 2008 (UTC)