Talk:Cross

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Heraldry and Vexillology Portal

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Contents

[edit] Old discussions

Is my English giving away again, or shouldn't that be "the presumably discovery of the original cross"? Also, maybe some of the text should be moved or copied to Jesus.

'The Christian symbol for God and, especially, Jesus.' Not to engage in theological quibbles, but this just isn't thought through. I'll substitute 'The Christian cross identifies a Christian, or a Christian object or location and is a reminder of the redeeming sacrifice of the Crucifixion.' and hope not to raise too much dust. User:Wetman

The first was more accurate if one is concerned with objective fact rather than faith. Since this is an encyclopedia I would assume that to be the case.

[edit] The famous Celtic Cross

Why isn't the Celtic Cross included in emblems and symbols???

Yeah, the Celtic Cross is definitely a symbol. It should be in there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.10.7.56 (talk) 21:18, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
"High cross" and "sunwheel" are both in there, last time I looked... AnonMoos

[edit] Non christian crosses

There was a section that claimed that all modern crosses are either swastikas or christian I removed it. It seems a massive generalisation. Perhaps it was intended to say that christianity is the only modern religous denomination to use the cross a symbol (but I'm not sure this is the case). I also mentioned the spontaneous production of crosses by young children.

[edit] User:196.2.124.250 edits

Dear 196.2.124.250 , there might be some pages on Wikipedia where the presence of your generalized abstract metaphysical pontifications on the essentially pagan nature of Christianity would be appropriate, but they're quite irrelevant on this page. Furthermore, the page you linked to (http://www.masada.org.za/English/the_cross1.htm) uses a completely bogus and quite incorrect form of the name of Jesus -- which never existed in Hebrew -- so that this does not predispose one to place great trust in what it says about crosses. See page http://symbolictruth.fateback.com/yeshua-yasu-isa.htm (particularly the second large image near the bottom) for correct information on the name of Jesus in Hebrew. AnonMoos 15:40, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Problems

This article definitely needs a lot more work -- maybe the first step is deciding what it should be (because currently it's a heterogeneous jumbled grab-bag). AnonMoos 06:33, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Tried to do some clean-up, and separate the heraldry stuff out -- still needs work AnonMoos 07:36, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
I've expanded the heraldry section about as much as I'm going to; it's still far from comprehensive... AnonMoos 08:59, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
I could probably add a bunch more heraldry to this, using the Webber book I posted in the References section. Does each heraldry symbol need its own stub? I personally don't see the point of each individual symbol having its own stub page. --Dulcimerist 22:13, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Silence edits

Thanks for taking care of a lot of the formatting stuff (and no, I don't have the slightest clue either as to what the difference between "crosses as emblems" and "crosses as symbols" may be). But there were a few problems with the heraldic terminology ("ordinary" is a noun in heraldry, not an adjective), and the "see also" list at the end of the Heraldry section is a list of other cross types which are mainly used in heraldry (not the same as the general "see also" list). AnonMoos 23:02, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

P.S. Maybe if the non-mainly-heraldic crosses could be organized in some better way than "symbols" vs. "emblems", then this page could be on the way to being a good article... AnonMoos 23:17, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for correcting my edits, then; I'm largely unfamiliar with heraldry, so I might have taken as poor formations or descriptions what are actually the official names and terms for certain things. Thanks for taking the time to fix the bad edits I made! I made a couple more changes (including merging solar cross and sun cross after your edit clued me in to the redundancy of the two), and I think our next step should be: merge all the "symbols" and "emblems" into a single category, and list them alphabetically, then list the heraldic crosses alphabetically in a subsection.
Oh, and I'd say that this article is already pretty good. It's interesting and manages to present all the basic designs in a way that's pleasing to the eye. It could mainly be improved with some better organization and a little more information on the crosses; there's so much empty space for most of the crosses, we could easily provide twice as much info on each! -Silence 00:12, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Alphabetize away, but the cross as heraldic ordinary should stay at the top of the heraldry section. In heraldry, that cross is the default which is used if no other words are added (i.e. if the word "cross" is used alone), so of course it doesn't have a handy name. Did you notice the Category:Heraldic ordinaries category? AnonMoos
OK, then the ordinary will be the only cross on the page we won't alphabetize. Or would you also like to have the "Greek cross" at the top of the other section? -Silence 03:55, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Image:Cross.png is at the top of the page, and that's enough... AnonMoos 05:09, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 'Peace' Cross?

I have removed the following entry due to it's amateur sound, lack of references and ambiguous nature: -

"Peace Cross" A cross with horizontal arms that have pivoted down to the five and seven o'clock positions. In ancient times it was as a house and holding mark, used to mark possessions, including livestock. It came to be known as the Crow's Foot or Witch's Foot. It resembles a modern peace sign without the enclosing circle.

What the user appears to be refering to is the rune of protection, also known as Eolh or Algiz, 'the moose rune'. Contrary to the 'peace sign', the emblem is facing three prongs upwards, the inversion of the rune implies the opposite effect, which in this case would be a warning of danger, hazard or risk. The 'cross' the user is refering to appears as follows: -

 \ | /
  \|/
   |
   |

Thus, whilst it could be argued to be a cross, I feel that unless it is address properly it should not be incorporated in this article (also an image would be handy). I would go as far as saying that comparing anything with a cross-section of some nature to a 'cross' is getting a little out of hand anyway.  :P Jachin 20:01, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't have any fixed opposition to removing it from the page, but I assume that the reference for "Crow's Foot or Witch's Foot" (though not for the name "Peace Cross") was the Koch book... AnonMoos 17:44, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I looked it up -- it's on p. 83 of "The Book of Signs" by Rudolf Koch -- though it's not called a cross there, and the name "Peace cross" counldn't have come into existence until the nuclear disarmament sign was invented about 45 years ago... AnonMoos 23:28, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Although this discussion is long dead, I thought I'd add my findings. That Webber book I own illustrates 175 different designs and styles of crosses. None of them are called a Peace Cross, or even resemble the image described. --Dulcimerist 22:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I stand corrected. I located a cross in my book, simply called The Pall. Its description reads, "A peculiar variation of the Tau cross, often found in catacombs. Its form resembles the letter Y." No illustration is provided, though. --Dulcimerist 00:37, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the Pall is a "Y" (a.k.a. the Furka/Furca or "thieves' cross"), while the "Witch's foot" (occasionally called a "peace cross" after the mid 20th century) is like a peace sign, but with the enclosing circle removed. They're different. AnonMoos 03:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image:BozeatCross.JPG

Dear "Brookie", I'm sure that Image:BozeatCross.JPG is highly authentic, but it isn't really so appropriate for this page, since it doesn't display as clearly in 150-pixel-wide thumbnail form (due to consisting of dark gray on light gray, and having a lot of blank wall space surrounding the cross) -- and most importantly, it contains five cross potents, which is not the most normal or proptypical form of the Jerusalem Cross (see http://flagspot.net/flags/crus-kj.html etc.). If there were a separate page devoted just to the Jerusalem or Crusaders' Cross, then BozeatCross.JPG would fit right in, but it doesn't work out so well as part of the summary table in this general amalgamated Cross page AnonMoos 00:08, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

The Jerusalem Cross should consist of a Cross Potent, and perhaps it orginally had four additional in lieu of the four Greek Crosses we see in the article page. More research should be done on this subject. A Crusaders' Cross consists of all Greek Crosses, so things do get a bit confusing. --Dulcimerist 22:54, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
The most commonly-seen version of the arms of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem does not contain 5 cross-potents. AnonMoos 03:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Yeah - This is the first 5-potent design I've seen. In case the above-mentioned photo would like to be used, I've replaced it with a lighter version. Currently, it's serving in the gallery on the Christian cross article. --Dulcimerist 05:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Swastika

By the way, someone removed the swastika from the "As emblems and symbols" section a little while back. I don't know if I care one way or the other about this, but other people might. AnonMoos 17:04, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Seems the swastika is back. I do not have a large collections of symbols on my computer, but does anyone? I would really want to suggest to use the Asian variant of the swastika and not show the nazi version. Some people take offence. Help me on this one. --203.198.148.54 08:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Here's an alleged Hindu swastika, but I don't know that it would really make much difference... AnonMoos 11:15, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I have access to quite a few symbol images. Are you still wanting an alternate? A normal swastika with its tines pointing counter-clockwise is actually safe, so you could use that. The Nazi swastika has its tines pointing clockwise only, as ordered by the Third Reich. --Dulcimerist 22:59, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Something I forgot to mention is that in Germany it's illegal to display the Third Reich Swastika, and it might even be any swastika of any variety. If a Wikipedia user from Germany uses this page, there's a chance it could cause problems for them. Hopefully the current counter-clockwise version on the article page will be acceptable, according to the the national German laws. --Dulcimerist 19:55, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
The current English Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons solution is to add warning templates to the image description pages, but not to censor article content. AnonMoos 03:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
A swastika isn't a type of cross, it's a completely different symbol. It doesn't belong here, it should have its own article. --RucasHost 23:29, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
According to this article (http://ccg.org/english/s/p039.html) it is the Gammate Cross. A quick Google search produces several pages of information. Symbols.com (http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/15/151.html) appears to have it indirectly (within the definition) classified as a cross as well noting that it is called the "Brigit's cross" for the Celtic goddess Brigit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Loosestring (talk • contribs) 19:11, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
The swastika is a cross (as mentioned in the article and needs to be mentioned in this article - like the cross fylfot. --89.53.41.46 (talk) 23:13, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Saint Peter's Cross

I've changed the phrase "based on the fact that Saint Peter was martyred by being crucified upside-down" to say "based on a tradition that holds that Saint Peter was martyred by being crucified upside-down." Our main article on Saint Peter describes this as a traditional belief, not as a fact. If there is proof that he was crucified upside-down please present it at the main article. FreplySpang (talk) 02:35, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

"In the Fullness of Time" by Dr. Paul Maier, page 354 - "The legend that Peter was crucified by Nero head-downward because he did not deem himself worthy to suffer exactly as Jesus did is possible, but seems an embellishment. It was Origen, as quoted by Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History iii, 1, who first commented on the head-downward position of the apostle. No early Roman tradition reports Peter as crucified this way, even if such a position was not unknown." --Dulcimerist 23:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
"Who's Who in the Bible" by Reader's Digest, pages 354-355 - Describes the legends surrounding Saint Peter's death, stemming from a pious fantasy called "The Acts of Peter." This is the earliest of many noncanonical works centering on the apostle, and was also discussed in the Dr. Paul Maier book mentioned above. "The Acts of Peter" has been proven by historians to be a fictional work, due to several inaccuracies; one of which being Latin/Aramaic language discrepancies. This noncanonical work is the original written source for the legend surrounding Saint Peter's head-downward crucifixion, with later sources utilizing this as their source. Although "The Acts of Peter" is extremely unreliable, it's still plausible that Saint Peter could've still been crucified in the head-downward manner. In the Wikipedia article the phrase "based on tradition which holds..." would be the appropriate phrase to use in this instance. --Dulcimerist 19:38, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Articles on Specific Crosses

the list of crosses contains some links to articles about the specific crosses. Most of these artical need work. I am posting here to bring attention to this fact. One example is the Cross or Lorraine article which contians many pictures of Patriarchal crosses incorrectly reffered to as Lorrain Crosses. Also, the specific articles do not contain links back to this artical, i feel these should be added. ScottW 04:44, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

What's the point behind having all of the various stub articles on the various crosses? This seems to be causing clutter and confusion. Should those stubs be removed, transferring their information to their images on the main Cross page? --Dulcimerist 23:06, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethiopian cross?

Requested articles page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_articles/Culture_and_fine_arts

is asking for "Ethiopian cross". Anybody? -- Writtenonsand 20:48, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Do they have a description of it? Ethiopian Cross is not listed amongst the 175 different designs and styles of crosses in the Webber book. Could they be referring to the Coptic Cross instead? Of the five ancient centers of Christianity, Alexandria (Egypt) would've been the closest to the Ethiopian Christians. Alexandria is the center of Coptic Christiandom and the Coptic Cross. On the other hand, it could've been Messianic Christiandom from Jerusalem that reached Ethiopia frist. The Book of Acts would suggest the latter. (I guess I didn't really answer the question.) --Dulcimerist 23:19, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crucifix?

Should the word and a link to crucifix appear somewhere in the article? Seems odd that it does not. NjtoTX 22:18, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

There's a link to Christian cross, though... AnonMoos 00:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "See also" Wiki links

What else from this section should be removed? The masonry one seems to not really fit, and a couple of the others I'm a bit iffy on. --Dulcimerist 21:41, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

After the trim a while ago in "See also," a few more have appeared. Two of them have no Wiki page. Is someone working on building those pages, or may I delete those two broken links? Thanks. --Dulcimerist 14:57, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ragulée

Could someone add this heraldic cross? It's on the old Spanish flag. --Dulcimerist 06:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Missing: Several Eastern European Variations

Specifically, I can think of the Victory over Islam Cross, which features a cresent moon at the foot of the cross. As well there are triple-bared crosses in which the bottom bar isn't slanted. I know there's more but that's all I can think of at the moment. Kevlar67 01:24, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's a crescent moon at the foot of a cross, though I don't know if it's exactly what you had in mind: Image:Flag_of_Odèn.svg -- AnonMoos 02:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Here's another symbol which seems to show the cross triumphing over the crescent: Image:Wappen_Ruppichteroth.png -- AnonMoos (talk) 13:54, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Others: Image:Bielański_POL_COA.svg , Image:Vícar coa.png... AnonMoos (talk)

[edit] Error on Byzantine Cross

There's a bit of a mix-up regarding the Byzantine Cross. What's pictured is the Eastern Cross, used primarily by the Russian Orthodox Church. The Byzantine cross looks different, and is generally used by the Greek Orthodox Church. Here are the examples of these two different crosses:

Example of Byzantine Cross ( http://www.lutheransonline.com/lo/230/FSLO-1134560228-111230.jpg )

Example of Eastern Cross ( http://www.lutheransonline.com/lo/542/FSLO-1134560541-111542.jpg )

Does anyone mind if I correct this in this article, as well as the Byzantine cross page? Thanks! --Dulcimerist 23:11, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Croatian cross

It was in use since early 9th century. It is used as symbol even today in some legal institutions. Croatian cross should be put on a list.

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CroatianCross.html

[edit] St James Cross

In my opinion the current representation of St James Cross does not fit the description appropriately as it does not fit the general depiction of the cross, nor are the cross ends true fleuries, nor is the pointed end a true sword blade. For a more complete discussion of my opinion see Talk:James,_son_of_Zebedee#Images. Please add comments there to keep a single location. Thanks Arnoutf 22:12, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CROSShairs

I think there also should be a link to crosshairs somewhere in the article, as many simple ones are actual crosses.--66.133.217.107 21:23, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Lfcross.jpg

Image:Lfcross.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 04:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Lfcross.jpg

Image:Lfcross.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 16:26, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] EXTERNAL LINKS

Could you sign me up in your external links: designercrosscollection.com

subject: discovery of the cross

User name: andrea07

Andrea07 22:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

nikki@designercrosscollection.com

No because that would be against Wiki policy against the publication of any commercial link. Arnoutf 07:29, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tallest cross "allegedly located" in IL?

Did the person who wrote this think the cross in question might actually be located elsewhere? Like they move it when nobody's looking? Hadda wonder. Zephyrad 21:38, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inverted cross

Is there anyway to type an inverted cross, or the St. Peter's cross with text using the keyboard? Doppelganger (talk) 12:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jerusalem Cross? Question and comments--

I'm curious as to whether the "Order of Christ Cross" as illustrated is aka the "Jerusalem Cross," or if not, what does the Jerus c. look like? Any leads would be appreciated.

The diff. between an emblem and a symbol, IMO, is this: When I was in the Army, and wore a brass "US" on my collar, that was an emblem of the organization to which I belong. Scouts, athletes, even employees of any number of large business wear EMBLEMS meaning that they belong to a particular group. A SYMBOL, I think, is more abstract. A cross is a SYMBOL of self-sacrifice; the skull-and-crossbones was a SYMBOL of merciless combat in the abstract, though it could also be taken as an EMBLEM of a particular pirate crew. The Presbyterian cross and the Order of Christ Cross in that sense are emblems of that church and that order, as well as symbols of sacrifice. The Greek Orthodox cross with the crooked crosspiece at the bottom is a SYMBOL of mercy, since Jesus is said to have tilted it when he turned toward the 'Good Thief' to reassure him; it would also be an EMBLEM of the Orthodox churches.

And Zeph., I don't think the cross is allegedly in IL--you're right, I think we can see it pretty plain. I think the "allegedly" is meant to refer to it being the tallest one. There might be a taller one in Zamboanga or someplace where they don't have the internet. Even now, someone could be making his way across the Sahara in search of a library with a computer than he/she can log on to in order to edit that page. Kind of makes it worthwhile to get up in the morning, huh? Yes, I stretch things a bit.

Terry J. Carter (talk) 19:52, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why was Drury's definition removed from the article?

This was removed March 13, 2008:

Nevill Drury's Dictionary of Mysticism and the Occult defines cross as:
An ancient pre-Christian symbol interpreted by some occultists as uniting the male phallus (vertical bar) and the female vagina (horizontal bar). It is also a symbol of the four directions and a powerful weapon against evil. (Drury, 1985)

I would like to know why as I feel it is relevant. Was it in the wrong place in the article? Note that the reference remains in the article even though the definition was removed. If it is determined that the definition has no place then the reference ought to be removed as well. Please discuss. Loosestring (talk) 16:37, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I added the definition back in and consolodated it with the other definitions since there was no answer to my question. If there is a dispute please discuss. Loosestring (talk) 14:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Because his idea is (as far as I know) a fringe theory, which are not reported in Wikipedia. Arnoutf (talk) 16:48, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

As far as you know? Do you have proof of this? You can't remove it from the article based on something "as far as you know".Loosestring (talk) 19:09, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry but the burden of evidence is the other way around. Wikipedia reports mainstream theories, and mainstream theories have attention in reliable sources. The provided phrasing "some occultists" already makes it clear this is not a mainstream opinion. It is up to you to provide additional sources who support or at least acknowledge the importance of Drury's argument; rather than up to me to provide sources who say he is not serious. Especially in the light of his theory being rather extraordinary it requires extraordinary evidence, a single source which is not a scientific work does not qualify as such without a lot of supporting evidence. Arnoutf (talk) 20:21, 29 May 2008 (UTC)