Talk:Crop circle/Archive 5

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[edit] Where is the science?

Interesting discussion, but nothing has been said about the scientific investigations that were in fact conducted, either in the article or in this discussion. Homework please...However, when I see scientific evidence removed and followed by a claim that there is no scientific evidence clearly homework is not the proper word.

the problem is pseudoscience is not science --Mark Barnes 09:04, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
There have been sound scientific studies conducted (eg by Dr Levengood) but many people object to the implications of their findings, which tend to support something complex behind the phenomenon. No-one has, however, conducted research which has yielded anything substantial to show how crop circles are made.
i am very familiar with the studies by BLT and it is that which i was referring to as pseudoscience. btw WC.Levengood doest have a PhD thus he is not a Dr. --Mark Barnes 17:10, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
That is very interesting. What is it about the research conducted by BLT that strikes you as pseudoscience? Is it their methodology? Because I'd hate to think you are excluding extremely relevant material from this article simply because you don't agree with their findings. I'm sure you're a very intelligent person, but I think a deeper explanation of what you consider pseudoscience to be and what the criteria are is definitely in order here, especially considering the content you are leaving out based on this judgment. Later! Calgarr 00:25, 24 July 2007 (UTC)Calgarr
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence but beyond that what strikes me as pseudoscience the most with the work is the groups bias, the null hypothesis is not plasma vortexes but man. ironically in "Anatomical anomalies in crop formation plants" (http://www.bltresearch.com/anatomical.html) Levengood actually uses samples from a known man made formation by Jim Schnabel as an example of the anomalies found in 'genuine' formations (ref: The Crop Circle Watcher 23, 1994 http://www.beyondweird.com/ufos/The_Crop_Watcher_Number_23_1994.html). rather than going into this too much here i will direct you to a rather good article from CSICOP http://www.csicop.org/sb/9606/crop_circle.html. In response to another post by you here regarding BLT finding small iron balls in a cropcircle, this is yet another case of the group being fooled by pranksters/artists (Rob Irving and again Jim Schnabel) who left an iron filling powder in the center of a formation they made (ref http://www.xstreamscience.org/H_Glaze/H_Glaze_0.htm)--Mark Barnes 10:12, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Wow. I would have to say that you're absolutely dead-on about this. Clearly, that's a bizarre thing to do, but this isn't the place for that kind of discussion. I'll never doubt you again! Thanks for going through the trouble of posting these links, I find it very interesting. BLT was really the only serious-seeming group studying alternate theories for crop circle formation, and since they're obviously way off, I guess this subject can be well and truly put to bed. Later! Calgarr 22:56, 24 July 2007 (UTC)Calgarr
I wouldn't say i was 'absolutely dead-on about this' but i dont think this is the place to discusse Epistemology. --Mark Barnes 16:44, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Not really, those metal spheres were found to be a hoax by the group who found them. CSICOP talks about pits but mentions nothing about nodes or germination. Incidently Levengood now owns a company selling rapid growth seeds, wonder where he got that idea. Interesting how NO science is worthy of placement here. 209.247.5.17 06:57, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Actually no BLT first thought the h-glaze was meteorite dust that had been pulled down by their 'vortexes' (ref http://www.bltresearch.com/semi-molten.html). and as above i site an example of the germination anomalies seen in a known man made formation which Levengood sites as an example of it. --Mark Barnes 16:44, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Article is not neutral, but written from a sceptical CSICOP position. Pseudoscientific spin is used to "debunk" paranormal explanations.

The article is being policed by individuals making the a-priori assumption that man-made origin is the only possible explanation, necessitating the omission, active removal or discrediting of evidence to the contrary, Science being invoked as a higher authority when questioned. The implication that all available evidence indicates man-made origin is deceptive and pseudoscientific.

The evidence in some cases calls into question the possibility of human authorship - well known team "The circlemakers" have withdrawn their claims to authorship of certain large circles once it was pointed out that the sheer size and complexity of the patterns would have required time and manpower way beyond the stated capabilities of the team - circles produced during a single night, without the help of man-made lighting, and without detection by members of the public. This information is not considered pertinent to the article.

Claims of circle authorship by human circlemakers are not subject to the same level of scepticism as are paranormal hypotheses: it appears that anecdotes may be accepted by the sceptics as scientific evidence in certain cases.

Asserting that paranormal explanations "violate Occam's razor" makes the a-priori and unfounded assumption that man-made origin is the simplest explanation. As an aside, the principle of Occam's razor cannot be "violated", as it is not a law of nature but merely a guide in the formulation of theories. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.49.196.2 (talk) 12:41, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

What formations are you claiming 'The Circlemakers' withdrew claim from? as far as i am aware apart from the commercial work they have done they have only ever laid claim to the Olivers Castle formation which had the 'hoaxed' video by John Wabe of it being formed by BOL (http://cropcircleconnector.com/Sorensen/articles/sorensen.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/norfolk/realmedia/nb/crop_circles_16x9_nb.ram). The reason why human circlemakers are not treated with the same skepticism is because its only man that has been able to demonstrate his ability to make complex crop circles.--Mark Barnes 14:23, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV and this article

I've just reverted a number of edits made with the stated intention of following NPOV. I accept that the editor had the best of intentions, but in the case of this article several of the modifications are unacceptable. NPOV can be taken too far: by removing criticisms of 'alternative explainations', we give them a false appearance of legitimacy. This is unacceptable under the Wikipedia policies for dealing with pseudoscience (I conferred with User:Philosophus on this matter). The current version of the article is not perfect, but the handling of NPOV is not the problem. Michaelbusch 05:28, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad you're on top of things. Actually, I don't believe there is any such thing as taking NPOV too far. If you look at the edits you'll see I actually didn't delete criticisms. I only deleted weasels, and criticisms which were not merely factual statements of what critics believe. For instance, "Often touted as evidence for the mystic origin of crop circles is the coincidence..." I believe that these kinds of statements, and ones like "Despite the evidence that crop circles are of human origin, various paranormal theories continue to enjoy some currency, although these violate Occam's Razor" violate the spirit and letter of NPOV. You can refer to my essay User:Martinphi/Paranormal_practicum here for further.

"we give them a false appearance of legitimacy."

We are not in the business of giving apearance. We are in the business of reporting, in a totally NPOV manner. The way you state this seems to show that there is a misunderstanding.

"This is unacceptable under the Wikipedia policies for dealing with pseudoscience"

Please be specific about this.
The sentence "Despite the evidence that crop circles are of human origin, various paranormal theories continue to enjoy some currency, although these violate Occam's Razor." Actually means "all crop circles are of human origin." Thus, it is factually, scientifically incorrect as a statement, since no one can know this. Also, Wikipedia is not in the business of discerning what is a violation of Occam's Razor. I'll put the POV tag on till such problems are corrected so that readers will be on the lookout for bias. Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 06:35, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

This is not the meaning of the statement. The statement means exactly what it says: all evidence points to human origin for crop circles, but paranormal explainations circulate despite their being baseless. Please see my user page under 'Objection 0'. With regards to removal of criticism, this follows from the ArbCom decision on pseudoscience (here). With regards to appearance: this is not merely journalism, reporting what others have said. This is an encyclopedia. It must be reliable and free of pseudoscience. This was an explicit statement in the ArbCom judgement (decision no. 14). Michaelbusch 06:43, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The statement "Despite the evidence that crop circles are of human origin" must be sourced. It is a negative scientific statement, and so, of course, cannot have a reliable source. I have nothing against scientific truth, but this is not it. We, also, in ref to your user page, are not in the business of being "harsh." We are in the business of describing positions and reporting reliable opinions. Nothing else. Please read the essay mentioned above. If these things are not dealt with, we can go to mediation. But there shouldn't be any problem, because policy is clear.
"So additions that mis-represent general relativity or describe alleged anti-gravity machines should be evaluated as harshly as possible;"
This should read "So additions that mis-represent general relativity or describe alleged anti-gravity machines must be balanced with well-sourced scientific opinions from reliable sources."
I of course assume that you mean that these claims are in articles which are about the said mis-representations of general relativity. Otherwise, just delete them, unless they have a reliable source. That isn't relevant to this article, however.
It is not scientific to state negative proof. It is against wikipedia policy to weasel. It is against Wikipedia policy to present things in a biased manner. Therefore, we must change this article.

I've been in disputes before which I have "won," but I don't want to do that again. I'd much rather you would try and see my point. That's because I don't want to do anything illogical, promote pseudoscience, or censor science. I only want to obey the rules and give everyone a fair shake, without bias which comes from language and without making incorrect statements. So I ask you to look a the thing again with fresh eyes.

"It must be reliable and free of pseudoscience." I have not read this ArbCom statement, but if the ArbCom meant that NPOV should be violated, unscientific negative proof claimed, and weasel words inserted, they are wrong.

Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 07:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

This is not the place for long discussions of Wikipedia policy. What the ArbCom said was that Wikipedia should correspond to present scientific understanding. In this case, that is that crop circles are strictly a human phenomenon. Not saying otherwise explicitly is a serious omission. Removing weasel words is fine, but your edits went too far in removing criticism of pseudoscience. Michaelbusch 19:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
As Marcello Truzzi would tell you, the criticism of pseudoscience in the sentence "Despite the evidence that crop circles are of human origin, various paranormal theories continue to enjoy some currency, although these violate Occam's Razor" is itself pseudoscience. I am not disputing the NPOV rules, on this sentence.
On the other things, they are obviously against the NPOV rules, and must be changed. For instance, this uncited sentence (which would be fine with citation):
"There have been cases in which believers declared crop circles to be "the real thing", only to be confronted soon after with the people who created the circle and documented the fraud."
I'll leave this sentence a while till it can be sourced.
This sentence "Often touted as evidence for the mystic origin of crop circles" is an obvious slur.

The sentence "A number of witnesses claim to have..." contains a completely unnecessary weasel word, one which is even mentioned as a WTA.

It isn't that you shouldn't give the scientific perspective. You shouldn't do it this way. Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 20:49, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't this page be treated the same way an urban myth is, rather than using as WP:Pseudoscience? It's like "tags from dead homeboys". The tags are real, the paint is real, even the walls that they are painted are real, but ...... the rest is urban legend.
perfectblue 15:48, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I just changed the "alternative theory" section to make statements as neutrally as possible and removed the weasel word tag. Feel free to add it again if you don't feel I did a very good job. Illuminatedwax 04:03, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pseudoscience?

User:Martinphi claims that the present version of the article contains pseudoscience, despite its merely reporting the current consensus of the scientific community. I request the opinions of other editors. You may view the two versions here: [1]. Michaelbusch 03:46, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

This is prior to considerable recent copy-editing, which the article did need. Michaelbusch 04:05, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

One good example of pseudo-science in this article is the assertion that paranormal explanations "violate Occam's razor". Occam's principle is not an inviolable law of nature or logical necessity as implied here, but an heuristic rule of thumb used when choosing between various competing theories describing a single physical state of affairs. It has little relevance outside the hard sciences and is merely being invoked here to give a scientific gloss to the marked sceptical bias of the article. It may well be the case that the scientific consensus holds that all crop circles _must_ be of man-made origin, however it is a serious overstatement to imply that this has somehow been finally proven, or is logically necessary to be the case. Sometimes one wishes that the acolytes of science at work here had a little deeper understanding of their chosen subject. 212.49.196.2 09:59, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spurious citation tags

I have removed the citation tags added by Martinphi, as misleading and un-necessary. I appreciate the sentiment, but the current linked source is good enough for both statements. This is the concept of reasonable doubt: we can never observe all crop circles, but every crop circle whose formation is reliably documented is a hoax. The Scientific American source is reasonable for reflecting scientific consensus. Michaelbusch 04:15, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Out of interest, what percentage of all crop circles reported are "reliably documented", and what factors are necessary for one to be considered so? - perfectblue 15:27, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pseudoscience 2

Firstly: Do not remove citation tags. They are there for a reason.
Explanation: The sentence is pseudoscience or needs change as follows:

desDespite despite is a word to avoid

the evidence that crop circles are of human origin, this constitutes a heavy implication that all crop circles are positively known to be of human origin, in other words, that they have all been observed forming, or that there is other definitive positive evidence; this is the first example of pseudoscience

various paranormal theories they are not theories; they are at most hypothesies- this is the second example of pseudoscience.

continue to enjoy some currency, although these all violate Occam's Razor.[5] This is sourced to the opinion of one man, writing in a skepticl magazine. It is not authoritative, and does not speak for science. I tried to change it to be the opinion of Matt Ridley, but this also was reverted. This is not pseudoscience per se, but it is not properly attributed. Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 04:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

As far as your claim that saying "crop circles are of human origin" is pseudoscience, every crop circle with a known origin was made by humans. NO crop circle has been proven to be made by anything other than humans. No crop circle has been proven to be impossible for humans to make. There are some whose creation cannot be fully explained, but to say this means it wasn't humans would actually be pseudoscience. It would be along the same lines as any evolution denier using inability to explain the development of a particular organ as proof evolution didn't cause it. And so we are left with this: Every crop circle with a confirmed cause has had that cause be humans, no crop circles have been confirmed to be caused by anything else. Some crop circles have no confirmed cause. Of the crop circles studied scientifically (Note: Witness statements alone don't constitute scientific evidence, nor do video tapes with funny lights) those confirmed to be man-made are the vast majority. Someguy1221 03:32, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


You are quite right about all of these things, 100%. That doesn't mean that is is any less pseudoscience to state categorically -as the meaning of this sentence does- that there is evidence that all crop circles are of human origin. I say "state categorically," because such a heavy implication as "the evidence that crop circles are of human origin", is equal to stating "the evidence that all crop circles are of human origin." We don't have such evidence. Ergo, we can't state it as if we do. Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 04:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I shall leave the tags there, as I don't wish to restart an edit war, and I'm sure someone with more time than I have might find a suitable citation. In any event, I will summon a common argument of inductive logic. I have seen many crows, and every one of them was black. If I observe this all over the world, I can state confidently that every crow is black. I have not, however, seen every crow there is (alternatively, many crows that I have seen were too far away for me to tell what color they were). This fact does not constitute reasonable doubt that all crows are black, it only means I tested a sample rather than the whole. Without any evidence, a hypothesis is still a hypothesis, and with no conflicting evidence, the fact that all of the many many crop circles with determined origin are man-made is sufficient to state that evidence indicates all crop circles are man-made. Someguy1221 05:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
You might be able to state that the statistical evidence points to all crop circles being man made. That is fine, if such evidence exists. What is not fine, is stating that "All crows are black," period. You are making my argument for me, yet you still seem to think it is OK to make a pseudoscientific (and POV) statement. Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 05:32, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Well right here we get into pedantics. Can statistical evidence equal fact? In probability statistics there is a concept of "the meaning of never." It states that if the probability of an event occuring is sufficiently low, you may state as fact that it won't ever happen. There is obviously an inverse concept of "always." So if I've gathered enough evidence, YES, I can say that "All crows are black." Although as I'm typing this I am finding myself agreeing that the cites should be there, but I'm still sure one of our more diligent editors can find it easily enough. Someguy1221 05:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Although that's all irrelevent because what the article actually says is "evidence that crop circles are of human origin." Someguy1221 06:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I saw this sentence also, and I thought it wasn't right. I though so for nearly the same reasons as Martin. Perhaps the problem here is that it isn't really as sure to say that all crop circles are created by humans as it would be to go all over the world and look at crows, and then to come back and say that There are no white crows. I think so because it is more like going all over the world and seeing no white crows, but also collecting a lot of stories which say that other people have seen white crows. It is like saying there is no Sasquatch: there might be, but no one has ever brought one home. So we can't just say it like we know it for an absolute fact to be true, don't you think? And has anyone gone over all the paranormal ideas and seen that all of them are really more complex than thinking that humans did some of those patterns? It seems like we have the same problem with this, because we can't know for sure. Myriam Tobias 06:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

"Although that's all irrelevent" It isn't the words. It's like I said, the way it says it actually means "The evidence that all crop circles are made by humans." But we only have an unknown amount of statistical evidence, plus the argument of Occam's Razor, to say that they all are.
All I tried to do was to modify the sentence to say exactly what we know. Also, I wanted it to sound NPOV. I don't think that this is really such a big deal. I just want to get it right, but people seem to want to make a really big statement- to make a point. Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 07:12, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Crop damage

What is the damage for the crops? Will it not be able to rise back, say, after rain? Is the plant OK but uneconomical to harvest? --84.20.17.84 16:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

this depends on the growth stage of the plant and also the amount of visitors a formation gets.. if the crop i knocked over while it is still growing it will try and upright itself over time (this is called phototropism) and is actual the reason why you get the so called 'magic bends' at the nodes. the crop can most of the time be harvested with success if the blades of the combine are lowered even if the formation went down in ripe crop, however if a formation has a lot of visitors the crop will be lost due to heavy damage. early in the season barley is found to be very springy (even popping back up just after it has been stomped) and a can be seen to be well into recovery the morning after a formation has gone down giving the formation a soft pillow like lay. --Mark Barnes 22:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

End this thread here please. This the talk page for the article, and also the above runs afoul of WP:OR. Michaelbusch 22:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the crop being harvested after a formation has been made here is an example http://www.circlemakers.org/natgeo.html regarding the effect of barley as its still green see 'The Field Guide..' by Rob Irving and John Lundberg p161-162 (ISBN 0954805429) --Mark Barnes 11:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Recent studies have suggested that the only damage to the crops (namely rape), is that the actual crystalline structure of the rape has been changed through some medium or other. James Random 13:34, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


OK city boys and girls. Have you ever tried harvesting crops that have been matter together in a spiral pattern by a guy with a roller. The outer edges might rise if they haven't been too badly battered, but the centers are a different matter because they are overlaid with each other. Also, if your circle has expulsion cavities in the nodes, the stalks can be too badly damaged to be any good.

Of course, when you have 200 journalists and hippies walking over it too, you're going to loose some harvest.

perfectblue 15:55, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Energy

It has become more widely known as studies have increased on this Phenomenon that some form of energyis usually present at crop formations. My suggestion thus far is that maybe the formation we see on the ground is only half the formation in its entirety. Perhaps these energies make up the other half of the formatin, thus completing the picture in the same way as colour is only half on an image (light being the other). I believe that we can begin to understand how this energy makes up the other half of the formation by the directions in which the crop is bent. I believe that the crop is bent as a result of being attratect to, or repelled, by the energy used to lay the formation in the first instance. James Random 13:37, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

If you have a reliable source, put it in the article. If you don't, the talk page isn't the place for you to share your theories with the world. --Minderbinder 13:40, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Describe "the energy"? Is this IR, UV, radio, some other EM, gravitational? Or did someone just get a "feeling" for it? How was this "Some form" of energy measured?Mzmadmike 16:01, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] BLT helicopter incident

I've seen several documentaries etc that include an incident in which MIT students working with the BLT institute were doing a helicopter survey of a crop circle was part of a TV documentary, when their engine lost power and only just managed to avoid hitting the ground. I know that the incident is real, but I don't have a WP:RS for it that doesn't come from Discovery channel or a "most haunted" type show.

Anybody know where we might find a strong reference to this incident.

perfectblue 16:25, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

If true, what link does this have to crop circles? — BillC talk 00:16, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Er... one of the weird properties claimed of crop circles is that they put out some kind of energy. I've seen plenty of claims of cameras zoning out etc in circles and unusual em readings.
perfectblue 08:27, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but you need a reliable source for the claim that this incident has a causal relationship with a crop circle. Otherwise, that association is your OR. Regards, — BillC talk 18:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


There was another aspect of this study (as shown on Discovery channel) that seemed to have enough scientific merit to warrant a mention in this article. In the cases described as "genuine" by the BLT institute, tiny (30-50 microns in diameter) magnetic metal spheres were found in the soil. Sadly, I don't know the first thing about serious research, so I couldn't begin looking for a source to cite. If someone wanted to look into this, I think it would be a good addition to the article. Really, a mention of the BLT institute alone might help, since it is (as far as I know) the first serious attempt to study crop circles whose efforts are peer-reviewed before publication. Later! Calgarr 00:17, 24 July 2007 (UTC)Calgarr

[edit] British English spelling

WP:ENGVAR states several criteria which provide guidance as to whether British or American English spelling should be used in an article. Of the five major criteria that are listed, three or four indicate that British English should be retained and used consistently through the article, and none indicate that it should switch to US English. Please respect these guidelines. SheffieldSteel 16:57, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cropmarks image

(Copied from my talk page. -- Fyslee/talk)

Hi there, I saw you added this image back to crop circle. I certainly don't have any strong feelings about the issue, and my reasons for removing it were twofold: first just for aesthetics -- I thought the article was getting a little crowded with images at that point; and secondly, it seemed somewhat of a diversion for the article. The meaning was already expressed in the text, and any reader seeking more information was just a click away from an article dedicated to it. But, as I said, no real strong feelings about it. Regards, — BillC talk 23:49, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I feel part of the problem may be the inclusion of a very tangentially (disambig.) related topic (pixie rings) without its own heading. There are three paragraphs and two images dealing with pixie rings that are just dumped into it, all of which belong elsewhere, but since there is a slight relationship, it deserves mention, merely to avoid confusion. Maybe that could be done with a shorter mention and link. Then move most of the content and all images to that article, since it isn't already there, and certainly deserves to be there. Maybe a "See also" link would suffice. Pixie rings (nearly always pretty round) and crop circles (which can vary enormously) are not the same thing. I have seen large pixie rings here, one of which has been visited every year for decades by my now-deceased FIL, who plucked huge quantities of mushrooms. Delicious! -- Fyslee/talk 06:20, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I would like to pursue this further here, as something should be done. The pixie rings info is rather misplaced. Any suggestions about what to do with it, besides just moving it to the Fairy ring article (which should be done). -- Fyslee/talk 15:20, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I have gone ahead and made some changes. Please revert or change if necessary. -- Fyslee/talk 15:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rather large revert

I just reverted a rather large edit, because it completely reversed what was presumed to be true and false in the article - thus "debunking" the mundane origin of the circles (presumably in favour of unstated alien or supernatural origin theories) - yet was completely unsourced. Rather than simply revert the text, and in case the author wishes to restore this material (and this POV), here it is - it just needs to be made more neutral, and for some reliable sources to be found...

In 1991, more than a decade after the phenomenon began, two men from Southampton, England announced that they had conceived the idea as prank at a pub near Winchester, Hampshire during an evening in 1978. Doug Bower and Dave Chorley alleged to have made their crop circles using planks, rope, hats and wire as their only tools: using a four-foot-long plank attached to a rope, they easily created circles eight feet in diameter. The two men were able to make a 40-foot circle in a quarter of an hour. Unfortunately for the duo, they were never able to make a truly impressive circle formation on command. They would simply wait for one to appear and then claim to have created it themselves. The pair became frustrated when their story did not receive significant attention, so in 1981 they claimed to be the creators of a circle in Matterley Bowl, a natural amphitheatre just outside Winchester, Hampshire - an area surrounded by roads from which a clear view of the field is available to drivers passing by. When newspapers claimed that the circles could easily be explained by natural phenomena, Bower and Chorley claimed to be making more complex patterns, while they still could not explain the actual information being encoded in the circles. Later designs of crop circles became increasingly complicated. When asked specific details about their designs and the dates of particular circle formations, Bower and Chorley were both inaccurate and evasive. Often times they claimed to have done a formation up to a week, before or after the actual appearance. Greater suspicion arose regarding Doug and Dave's "claim to fame" when it was discovered that Bower's wife had become suspicious of him...

Have fun! SheffieldSteel 03:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute? What Dispute?

I saw the little banner up top that said that there was some kinda dispute about this article going on. What is it about? Could anyone (in plain normal typed English) explain what is going on?

Chef Clover 14:22, 25 April 2007 (UTC) MyTalk

Not exactly, no. It's related to [this] dispute though. SheffieldSteel 15:17, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

That said, it has been some time since the dispute was active here. Michaelbusch 16:55, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Okaaaaaaaaaaaaay, I have no clue what you're talking about. I said, and I quote, "in plain normal typed English." >o<
(Oh. My. Français. I'm tired and not in a good mood. Be careful!!!!!) Chef Clover 14:53, 27 April 2007 (UTC) MyTalk

[edit] The Duhamel incident

I think the anecdote about the Duhamel incident is an appropriate addition to the Crop Circle article. It's one of the earliest examples of crop circles in the 20th century and predates the late-70s rash of occurrences by a decade. There are no other "anecdotes" in the article at present, but I think a comprehensive article about crop circles should include details of actual, historical occurrences, and the Duhamel information in the "History of modern crop circles" section sets that example. What do you think? My vote is to restore the deleted content. --Skillymagee 13:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

my objection is that the case is purely anecdotal and may not even describe a cropcircle, if you read the link it doesnt sound much like one at all.
there are also many other anecdotal pre dough and dave examples and if we include one why not include all? many can be read here http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shuttle/5604/traces.html
However saying this both the mowing devil and nature article may not be describing what we now refer to as a cropcircle but these two accounts are strongly embedded into cropcircle mythology so i think it would be wrong for them to be left out. --Mark Barnes 13:54, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree that, in the interests of producing a comprehensive encyclopedia article, it's worth including all this information. Let's continue with adding the content you mentioned. --Skillymagee 14:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
i don't think this account should be included in the wiki article mainly as it does not describe a crop circle and for this reason i am going to remove it again. at most i think there could be a reference to the existence of pre doug and dave anecdotal accounts of cropcircles in ufology. however the tully circles are not mentioned in the wiki either which really should be as thats where dough bower got the idea in the first place. --Mark Barnes 18:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Pixie Circles in History of modern cropcircles

is there really any need for this to be in the history section given it is talking about something totally different than crop circles? is there anyone who would object if it was taken out given it is already listed under Similar phenomena as fairy rings?? --Mark Barnes 23:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I have now taken the pixie rings comment out of the history section. here is the text if you feel in needs to be added back in or moved elsewhere --Mark Barnes 12:26, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


Two fairy rings (or pixie circles) marked by uneven grass growth (small one in foreground, much bigger one in background).
Two fairy rings (or pixie circles) marked by uneven grass growth (small one in foreground, much bigger one in background).

Although the pixie circles said to be created by Elves in Scandinavian folklore were most likely caused by fungus colonies, there was also a rarer kind, consisting of circular patches where the grass had been flattened:

On lake shores, where the forest met the lake, you could find elf circles. They were round places where the grass had been flattened like a floor. Elves had danced there. By Lake Tisaren, I have seen one of those. It could be dangerous and one could become ill if one had trodden over such a place or if one destroyed anything there (an account given in 1926, Hellström 1990:36).

[edit] Where is the science?

Interesting discussion, but nothing has been said about the scientific investigations that were in fact conducted, either in the article or in this discussion. Homework please...However, when I see scientific evidence removed and followed by a claim that there is no scientific evidence clearly homework is not the proper word.

the problem is pseudoscience is not science --Mark Barnes 09:04, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
What you regard as pseudoscience is actually a blind study done by a notable mineralologist, reviewed by a world renown expert. So who is being pseudoscientific here? And are ALL the scientists involved pseudoscientists and not worthy of inclusion in this article? Remember pseudoscience is the claim of being scientific without actually do it. So, of course you can provide us with valid sources backing up your claims? Or not...209.244.42.3 08:00, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
If you are referring to the tiny metal spheres, he has already provided a link explaining that they were only there as the result of a calculated prank. Look, I know you want to believe there is more to it, but we are dealing with scientific methodology here. For the purpose of crop circles, that means you cannot continue supporting an unprovable (or at least extremely difficult to prove) theory in the face of people who have confessed to artificially creating these phenomena and explaining how they did it. In a purely hypothetical future, scientists may discover that they were wrong all along about crop circles (it happens all the time, and when there is sufficient evidence scientists aren't afraid to re-evaluate previously reached conclusions) but this is a serious reference work, so it must describe everything in the most neutral possible way. And, whether you like it or not, science has already provided the conclusions that anyone possessing true neutrality must agree with. This is not a format for supporting pet theories. If you know of a specific, verifiable source that directly contradicts the link Mark Barnes already provided, please post it. If not, we have to go with what we have. Calgarr 03:59, 27 July 2007 (UTC)Calgarr
No, I am referring to clay crystallization which occurs naturally when exposed to high temperatures great pressures and long periods of time. The samples were tested and verified. And then there is the changes in plant cells, seeds in particular. The lead researcher of this one Levengood, now owns a company which produces rapid growing seeds. Or the astronomer who decoded Stonehege commenting that Doug and Dave were creating crop circles with unknown theorems in the designs. It goes on and on but you won't find any of it here, why? I notice you have a pet theory too...209.247.5.17 06:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Why not post some links here, so that other editors can discuss them? Sheffield Steeltalkersstalkers 14:56, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I know what he/she is referring to and will give references to them however please keep it in mind that i personally don't agree with the reasoning in these references (as you can probably tell from my other comments on this page). first is the "Clay-Mineral Crystallization Case Study" aka "XRD Study" by BLT (http://www.bltresearch.com/xrd.html) and the five unknown theorems is by Gerald Hawkins (http://www.lovely.clara.net/hawkins.html). I will comment on these at a later date but right now i have never the time or the energy but i do hope others will read the links and make comments here before considering adding them to the main article --Mark Barnes 00:38, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
X-ray diffraction huh? Takes me back to my days at university. It's all very interesting, if thoroughly inconclusive, since it wasn't even a single-blind study, let alone double-blind. Anyway, being self-published on the web by a non-notable group means, as I understand wikipedia's guidelines, that it is not a reliable source. Same for the second piece - unless a reliable secondary source can be found commenting on these items of research, they really aren't up to our standards. Sheffield Steeltalkersstalkers 02:35, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I whole heartedly agree. however the Dr.Hawkins theorems do have other sources and also critiques on some cropcircle books (unfortunately i am not at home so i cant reference any for a while, i am pretty sure it spoken about in the 'Field Guide' and a few popular croppie books) i am also sure they are more sites out there but as you know with paranormal topics it rather had to find (or define) a 'reliable' source. on a side note you will be pleased to know that i am currently studying Physics with Photonics at university so this xrd stuff is foreign to me either.--Mark Barnes 07:13, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] intro paragraph(s) need to be changed

Article should only speak in generalities in the lead, not go on at length about crop cricles at just one period in time.

[edit] Over-emphasis on Bower/Chorley and hoaxes

Just have to share this with someone. I was skeptical about this phenomenon, but then last week my 89-year-old mother who grew up on a farm was talking about my great grandfather. And in passing, she said that he had a theory regarding crop circles. And I thought, "What? Crop circles in the Midwest in the late 19th and early 20th century?" She didn't even feel a need to explain it, but just used the term as if she expected me to be familiar with it, as if it was common knowledge in her era. This is not a woman who has ever been interested in the paranormal and would not be familiar with any paranormal claims. She said my great grandfather's theory was that buffalo would circle around a calf in the presence of a wolf.

Whether or not this is a credible explanation, I do believe that there's some naturalistic explanation, but I no longer believe that all crop circles can be explained by pranksters or artists. It's too bad that there's such a heavy emphasis on this explanation in the article. The Bower/Chorley material is repeated three times. Seems like once would be enough, and not in the lead.

I suppose there could have been pranksters back in my great grandfather's time, but the region was so sparsely populated, and transportation so rudimentary that it hardly seems credible that some kids were out in a field creating a circle. Plus, you have to assume that given the paucity of media back then, they couldn't have been influenced by reports of other pranksters. TimidGuy 20:28, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

But there have been incidents in the distant past involving humans deceiving others. Just check out the Mowing-Devil matter from the 17th century! Pranksters have always been around, and particularly deceptive ones as well. Bower and Chorley are just modern guys who took advantage of New Age Alt medder type's gullibility, and when confronted with the real explanation their reaction is a classic example of the true believer syndrome. -- Fyslee/talk 21:03, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inconsistency in historical details

There is a section called "History of modern crop circles" - which you will note, is careful to use the word 'modern'. It cites evidence from 1678 and then is more definite about a report dating to 1880. It then cites a case from 1966.

This is fine, but when we get to the section called "Creators of crop circles", it says:

In 1991, more than a decade after the phenomenon began...

If crop circles are known from 1966, 1880 and possibly the 17th century, what is the rationale for saying 1991 is "more than a decade" after the phenomenon "began"? This is illogical and misleading. Either it should say something along the lines of "decades and perhaps centuries after records began", or all the historical cases are identifiable as bogus. 81.96.161.52 00:20, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

the problem is the pre Doug and Dave circles do not necessarily describe what we would call a crop circle today thus the modern phenomena of what we would class and recognise as crop circles really did begin with them which is what the wiki entry is about --Mark Barnes 14:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Alternatively, the problem may be summarised as: some editors want to include anything which (a) is found in crops (b) is vaguely round in shape. Personally I think the mowing devil is stretching things a bit too far. Sheffield Steeltalkersstalkers 00:58, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that this applies to every single case pre-1978. The literature is full of accounts which pre-date this (eg in the last section of "Circular Evidence"), and photos exist of crop circles in 1966, and some in 1975 (in connection with Billy Meier), and you can see flattened, swirled circles.

But in any case, my point is about inconsistency within the article. There is, for example, a section called "Crop circle designs" which mentions "the early formations (1970 - 2000)". Accoring to the discussion here, there were none at all until 1978. 81.96.161.52 13:12, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Electromagnetic evidence

Removed from the section "criticism of alternate theories":- yet these critics cannot seem to explain the electro-magnetic phenomena around crop circles.[1] This seems like it does not meet wikipedia's criteria for reliable sources, i.e. it's a self-published website. If the material can be rephrased (and the author demonstrated to be notable) then there is still the question of where to put it. Rather than tacking it onto the end of a paragraph which it contradicts, it might be better placed in the section on alternate origin theories, as supporting evidence. Sheffield Steeltalkersstalkers 14:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Uncited text removed

This is the paragraph as it was before removal of the bold text:

Carl Sagan discusses the phenomenon of alien-based theories of crop circle formation in his book, The Demon Haunted World. Sagan writes that no saucer has actually been seen, and no geometric figure has been filmed in the course of being generated (although certain witnesses claim otherwise{{Fact|date=August 2007}}). He also cites, as an example of a known cause of crop circles, the human agents Doug Bower and Dave Chorley. Sagan states that no supernatural, paranormal, or alien cause should be attributed to crop circles, in the light of the available evidence.[2]

I removed this for two reasons. Firstly, it is just an unattributed claim that persons unknown dispute something, and as such it does not add value to the encyclopaedia. Secondly, it interrupts the account of Sagan's treatment of the subject in his book. If a source could be found for the challenge to Sagan's arguments, then I think it would be best added at the end of this paragraph, ideally with a comparison of dates (i.e. was Sagan wrong or ignorant when he wrote the above, or has evidence come to light more recently?) Sheffield Steeltalkersstalkers 02:59, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV dispute?

Does anyone still think the article has problems adhering to the WP:NPOV guidelines? If not, it might be time to remove the tag from the article. Sheffield Steeltalkersstalkers 02:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)