Talk:Croatisation

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on November 24, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

I don't know, but this article has a very propagandistic feel to it. It's a compilation of assumptions or daring statements, which are not backed up by any kind of source or information. It wouldn't surprise me, if the author of this article wrote it with the purpose of legitimating greater-serbian theories.


Put tag up because:
  • Subject itself is POV;
  • Written by unknown person;
  • Quotes site reporting on testimony given by biased source;
  • Requires more sources;
  • Makes unquantifiable and unverifiable claims re Serbs trader coverting - indeed it claims were forced to convert to Roman Catholicism, a claim if verifiable, does not constitute change in ethnicity. Nor is forced the right term because it did not constitute a campaign to change ethnicities in territories outside it's control, but rather a condition of citizenship of it's state.

In the Croatian context it would cove I think a different style of article article linked to the Croatia or Demographics of Croatia and titled Demographic History and Social Integration of Croatia. It would cover the tendency of minority groups to adopt aspects of the mainstream (as covered generally in Social integration. In the Croatian context it would cover Hungarian, Austrian, Vlach, Serb and one notable Polish-Slovak Slavoljub Penkala & Brazilian Eduardo da Silva immigrant that adopted the Croat national identity and Vlach immigrants that adopted the Serb identity.

It could also cover the experience of integration of Croat immigrants in their new homeland - USA, Canda, South America, Western Europe, Australia and New Zealand.
I don't know about that. The problem here is that this term is rather modern and negative one, it mainly refers to aggressive attempts of assimilation of other ethnic groups, namely Serbs during the 'World War 2'. As such this article should reflect that and I have made some changes about it. When we speak about peaceful and voluntary assimilation and social integration of various ethnic groups such as Germans, Slovaks, Czechs, Hungarians, etc. some other articles other than this should be used. --Factanista 08:03, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
As the article stands, I'll have nominated it for deletion because it clearly is POV, represents propaganda and WP:POINT. iruka 17:27, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Full support. --PaxEquilibrium 18:32, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

This text is completely - missing the point.
"Croatization", in Croatian, has positive meanings. E.g., like croatizing of foreign words, just like the French do with anglisms.
If you look at this from the point of assimilation of persons, neither from that side, this term that has negative conotations. Assimilation could mean that the majority in some community has accepted minority as part of themselves.
But this article is purposely written. Ordinary anti-Croat propaganda, and as such, it should be deleted. Kubura 08:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Expanding croatisation

Croatisation is a useful article. I expanded it a lot, adding the Illyrian Movement, but it should be expanded even further to include the recent croatisation of several sportsmen. I'm not well-versed in sports, but names like Da Silva or Peshalov come to mind. I'll write that chapter if nobody else wants to.

I deleted the paragraph called "Croatisization (sic!) against Italians", since it had only one sentence which had nothing to do with the title. This is how it went: The Italian communities of Istria and Dalmatia are today reduced to a minimum part of their original size. The most of Italian left the present day Croatia during the Istrian exodus, after World War II. This is an article about croatisation, not the Italian exodus. If any Italians were croatised, the appropriate chapter should be added, of course.

I also removed inappropriate links under "See also". Ustasha are quite relevant for croatisation, so I left them. But Jasenovac (an extermination camp) and Operation Storm (a military operation) have nothing to do with croatisation. --Zmaj 13:33, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tags

After the last edits of user:Zmaj, the article is totally deprived of neutrality, with a lot of censure aganist some Croatian 'responabilities'; such as the Italian exodus from Croatia. I will work on it ASA, providing valid sources, according to my habit.--Giovanni Giove 15:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't be unfair, Giovanni. I sympathize with the plight of the Italians who had to leave Croatia after WWII. And I'm appalled by foibe, it was a terrible crime. But this is not the right article - it's not about exoduses or massacres, it's about croatisation. Regarding the Italian exodus, I don't think the right article exists yet. You could start a new one, something like Esuli, for example. I'll help you if I can. --Zmaj 09:12, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
I hope you will not vandalize again the article, deleting my edits as pure disturbing action. Best regards.--Giovanni Giove 19:27, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
See WP:VAN, Giovanni. You have wrong notions about vandalism. --Zmaj 00:36, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to report your destructive behaviour.--Giovanni Giove 08:24, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
By all means do so. It will teach you a thing or two about Wikipedia. --Zmaj 10:22, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
be carfully, you wrote that you wished to start a personal attack against me, after this you starte with massive reverts without to provide logic arguments, be carefully.--Giovanni Giove 10:56, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Look, Giovanni, you can't put an NPOV tag just like that. You must explain on the talk page what parts of the article are POV and why. And you didn't do that. Look at my comment on this page, under the title Expanding croatisation. That's how you should explain your actions. I'd honestly like to know why you think that the current article needs the NPOV tag. Just don't start again with meaningless phrases like "you're not neutral", "you're censuring" etc. Tell me precisely what's the problem. OK? I'll leave your tag for a couple of days, but if you don't provide any sensible arguments, I'll remove it. I think that's fair. --Zmaj 17:26, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Three days have passed, and still no explanation for the NPOV tag. I'm removing the tag. --Zmaj 12:53, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

POV tag is returned because of this reasons:
  • Part of article under name 1800s. Illyrian Movement is Croatisation ???
Rječina, why are you doing this? The chapter says that Illyrian Movement was a national revival. There was voluntary Croatisation within the movement. The chapter provides concrete examples of such Croatisation. Where's the problem? Did you even read the chapter? This is starting to get on my nerves... --Zmaj 15:45, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Part of article Italians. Can somebody tell me please from where is data assimilation of Italians between 1850 - 1914 ? Maybe from somebody fantasy ?
  • Part of article 1990s . Initiators of Yugoslav wars ?? Serbian fantasy ?? --Rjecina 15:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
OK now article is better but there is still questions. First is that Italians have disappeared between 1850 and 1918. Sorry but there is no census data for 1850. From where is this data ?? Census data which we have is on this discussion page. Second thing under question is that Croatisation of television is one of initiators of Yugoslav wars ?! --Rjecina 19:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Peaceful assimilation

Small minorities assimilate into the majority or into ruling country's nation.
It's normal process everywhere in the world.
Croatia wasn't independent in 19th century.
In fact, todays Croatia was dismembered in the 19th century between Austrian and Hungarian part of the Monarchy. And, as worse, the official language in littoral provinces was Italian. And still, many of those Italians that came to live in Croatian Littoral assimilated into Croats, some of them before Napoleon's and Habsburg rule.
And already, in 19th century, many of them were the local leaders or important personalities of Croatian Risorgimento, Croat national renaissance (hrvatski narodni preporod), some of them even croatising their name and surname. Kubura 06:21, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

By the Age of Croatian national renaissance (that happened at the same time as in the rest of Europe), many Italians have already croatized, although there was no independent nationalist Croatia to impose such rules.
I'll list you here the names of deputies in Dalmatian Diet, when Croat-reunionist party Narodna stranka (National party) won the majority. Narodna stranka was by local pro-italianist party called partito croato (not "partito serbo-croato", not "partito iugoslavo").
Among those deputates, six or seven of them had Italian-sounding surnames.
That doesn't have to mean that all of them were of Italian origin; it could be the case that some of their ancestors were Croats that italianized their surname. Also stays for the other case, with Croat surname. There's a possibility of previous croatization of Italian surname.
Here're some names:
Lovro Monti. In this scientific article by Šime Peričić “O broju Talijana/Talijanaša u Dalmaciji XIX. Stoljeća” (“Concerning the number of Italians/pro-Italians in Dalmatia in the XIXth century”), Zavod za povijesne znanosti HAZU u Zadru, UDK 949.75:329.7”19”Dalmacija), it says that he was of Italian origin. Abstract in English.
Juraj Biankini.
A case of Croat Rafo Arneri. A scientific article Doprinos Rafe Arnerija hrvatskom narodnom preporodu u Dalmaciji (Contribution of Rafo Arneri to Croatian national renaissance in Dalmatia). Work by Šime Peričić, Rad. Zavoda povij. znan. HAZU Zadru, sv. 47/2005., str. 325–340, UDK 949.75:929 R. Arneri. Arneri was a family from Korčula, with origins from Bosnia. Still, at the beginning, Rafo was raised in Italian spirit, so he knew Italian better than Croatian. In order to help Croat cause and Croat reunionist mission, he had to improve the knowledge of his Croatian. Kubura 08:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Here's a list of 26 deputates of Narodna stranka (partito croato) from 1870. in Dalmatian Diet. On this link, it mentions the "team" on the photo: party leader Miho Klaić, then following trio Miho Pavlinović, dr. Rafo Pucić and Edvard Tacconi; in a chain around central part: Ivan Danilo, dr. Lovro Monti, dr. Petar Čingrija, dr. Antun Bersa, dr. Josip Antonietti, dr. Konstantin Vojnović, Ivan Desković, Gjorgje Vojnović, Petar Budmani, Josip Kažimir Ljubić, Ivan Vranković, dr. Josip Paštrović, Antun Šupuk, Josip Raimondi, Stefan Ljubiša, dr. Frane Lanza, Krsto Kulišić and dr. Ante Tripalo. At the bottom are Rafo Arneri, Jerotej Kovačević and Vicko Luković, and completely at the bottom, Frane Fontana. Kubura 09:16, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Croatisation of Italians in Dalmatia

Statement about assimilation of Italians in Dalmatia between 1850 and 1914/18 is under very good question. Census data from article Kingdom of Dalmatia for year 1880 are:

It is if nothing else misleading speak that when school has started to use Croatian language and not Italian is assimilation. Croats have been 77 % of population and it is normal that in school and other public places language is Croatian and not Italian because they are only 5-6 % of population. Be good to answer this question with argument. If there is no answer today tag will be returned.--Rjecina 19:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Austrian empire has started to make census data only in 1880. Data for Italians between 1880 and 1910 are:
  • 1880 27305
  • 1890 16000
  • 1990 15279
  • 1910 18028 +2500 persons which are having Italian passport.--Rjecina 19:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)