Talk:Croatian War of Independence
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| 1. April-November 2006 2. November 2006 - April 2008 |
[edit] No Serb Wins?
It's pretty hard to believe that the only Serb win in this entire 5-year war was at Vukovar... I mean, come on!!! They held out for like 5 years and committed a bunch of massacres and there was only one win... That's pretty hard to believe... But then again, an article like this one (from Wikipedia) is really biased, so you can't expect much, I guess... Disappointed, but no surprised... huh... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.229.189.101 (talk) 18:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
if you can find them,add them.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 10:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Occupation of the territories settled by unarmed people are not wins. Zenanarh (talk) 11:49, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I'll have to do some research and buy a book or two... Probably the one made by Osprey Publishing... The strongest rebel Serb areas in Croatia were in eastern Slavonia and the areas around Knin and Lika in Dalmatia... From what my dad tells me (because he's a Croatian Serb) before Mladic got promoted and sent to Bosnia, he was a rebel Croatian Serb general fighting in Dalmatia and that he did really good - that's why he got promoted and sent away... It's absolutely impossible that there was a single win... That's a lie, I tell you... Just impossible... Can't be true... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.229.189.101 (talk) 02:16, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- LOL you're right, Mladic did really good, he was a leader of an army of 15-20.000 well armed soldiers (Serbian paramillitaries + mobilised Serbs in JNA), 30-40 tanks, 10 MIG's, a few battleships, heavy artillery - a force which occupied the most of Ravni Kotari defended by the Croatian police units (around 100 men with pistols and a few guns) in September '91 (there was no Croatian army at all in the beginning). In the next 3 months there was 120 km long front fireline in Kotari attacked by previously mentioned Serbian force and defended by 400-500 poorly armed Croats (much more Croats were mobilised but there was no enough weapon for all, only uniforms). I can remember some really gigantic Serbian wins like occupation of the Croatian village of Paljuv, it was defended by 10 local paisants armed with the guns for rabbits. Or the most victorious one, occupation of the vilage of Škabrnja in October '91, the best defended Croatian village in Kotari, by 200 local men (all of them had the uniforms and some kind of a gun, including that for neutralizing the rabbits and birds). Mladic asked them to remove the road barriers so he could replace 20 tanks from occupied Zadar airport to Benkovac. When the paisants did it he ordered a massive attack on Škabrnja, a few airplanes, 30 tanks and a few thousands of heavily armed soldiers broke to the village fighting against empty houses and frightened oldmen, women and children hidden in the basements (see Škabrnja massacre), since Croatian "force" retreated to Glavica, a hill above Škabrnja, where they remained for a few hours, probably because the tank armor was too strong for the rabbit guns. Yeah Mladic did really good, a real hero ;) Zenanarh (talk) 09:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- A lot about Mladic and Dalmatia is in the article Battle of Dalmatia. The JNA forces there were not that strong (over 50% of JNA's tanks and much heavy weapons were aimed at Vukovar, the rest spread out), but were much stronger then poorly armed defenders. Still, they aimed to capture the entire Dalmatia coast and were stopped along the entire line, partly because they spread too thin - attacking Maslenica, Zadar and Šibenik at the same time. Only Maslenica of the three was captured, and the loss of the bridge was the only real strategic defeat for the Croats, which was neutralized by ferry lines and later by Operation Maslenica. The loss of Vukovar was a bigger blow to Serbs then Croats, not just due to losses, but due to time and effort lost (the Cro army more then doubled in size in the three months the siege lasted, something which they badly needed)...
- Anyway, as for the subject of Serb wins, indeed there were none... In 1990/early 91, they occupied Serb-inhabitated areas and then attacked out in the latter half of 1991. If you compare maps of their territories in 1992 and Serb-inhabitated areas, you'll see that they advanced only several kilometers out in every direction from those territories... that kind of says it all - they tried to take everything at once and failed everywhere... a classic war mistake. The only Cro areas which they captured was the area around Maslenica, and they managed to get to the suburbs of many cities: Karlovac, Osijek, Šibenik, Zadar, Gospić, but failed to enter any. The Spanish Inquisitor (talk) 10:34, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- Compareably, they did somewhat better in Bosnia, but even there the biggest area captured was the Bosnian Posavina, which is less then 1/10th of Bosnia. I don't actually have much knowledge about Kosovo, but I've heard the KLA got beaten badly before NATO interveaned... but then again, the KLA was just as badly armed as early Croat and Bosnian forces. The Spanish Inquisitor (talk) 10:37, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- The JNA forces there were not that strong? - Well, Škabrnja was attacked by 30 tanks, all armor batalion present there. Also when I say 15-20.000 soldiers, keep in mind that they were not all in JNA. In fact this number was usually present there by the weekends. Every Friday there were caravans from Serbia to Croatia, returning back by the end of Sundays. In Croatia these people were called "Weekend Chetniks". All direct offensive actions in Dalmatia in the autumn and winter of '91 occured during the weekends, mainly in Saturdays and Sundays. Thursdays and Fridays were usually used for heavy artillery attacks on all non-occupied region as preparation for direct attacks by the weekends. I remember this number as evaluation from those days. Zenanarh (talk) 11:10, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- About the JNA strength, I was talking about the situation of equipment in general. The JNA had about 2000 tanks all total, of which the 9th Knin Corps had only about 100... It was still too strong, as Croats there had 0 tanks... at least until some were captured when the first barracks fell...
- (I don't recall exact numbers, but about 2 out of 4 (total) JNA tank brigades and 4 out of 6 mechanized brigades - that's all JNA tanks and armor - were at Vukovar and east Slavonia: that's 50% tank strength)... This actually was sensible, as tanks were less useful in Dalmatia and Lika... Slavonian plains are much more suitable for tank operations. The Spanish Inquisitor (talk) 12:33, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- The JNA forces there were not that strong? - Well, Škabrnja was attacked by 30 tanks, all armor batalion present there. Also when I say 15-20.000 soldiers, keep in mind that they were not all in JNA. In fact this number was usually present there by the weekends. Every Friday there were caravans from Serbia to Croatia, returning back by the end of Sundays. In Croatia these people were called "Weekend Chetniks". All direct offensive actions in Dalmatia in the autumn and winter of '91 occured during the weekends, mainly in Saturdays and Sundays. Thursdays and Fridays were usually used for heavy artillery attacks on all non-occupied region as preparation for direct attacks by the weekends. I remember this number as evaluation from those days. Zenanarh (talk) 11:10, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- Compareably, they did somewhat better in Bosnia, but even there the biggest area captured was the Bosnian Posavina, which is less then 1/10th of Bosnia. I don't actually have much knowledge about Kosovo, but I've heard the KLA got beaten badly before NATO interveaned... but then again, the KLA was just as badly armed as early Croat and Bosnian forces. The Spanish Inquisitor (talk) 10:37, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Ok, everyone here should just chill because this discussion is NOT about massacres,Zenanarh... This is about Serb military victories in the Croatian War of Independence... The rebel Serb Krajina state backed by the JNA during the early phase of the war successfully expelled hundreds of thousands of people... During this early establishment of Krajina, there had to be some military engagements between Croat and Serb forces... I just find it incredibly hard to believe that the only Serb win listed here was at Vukovar... If so, that's pathetic... Somewhere in the article, it said by like late or middle 1991, 1/3rd of Croatia was under Serb control... How can this be? If there were no battles or engagements won by the Serbs, it must have been just simply a matter of marching over desired territory - something that is highly unlikely... ~ Wayne —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.229.189.101 (talk) 20:34, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
The JNA plan was to crush the newly elected Croatian govenment and to capture Zagreb at the beginning,then trough negotiations they stopped. While Croatia was finaly getting some real weapons to fight the war,Serbs just hoped to get the territories thecaptured trough negotiations.but that was illegal because of the Yugoslav constitution where the borders were made in 1945.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 22:35, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
The places where serbs won were in whole eastern Slavonija like,Dalje,Glina,Erdut and Dalmacija... from the Montenegrin border to Dubrovnik,and all the places which stood in the way of making an ethnicly pure state.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 22:35, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- There were JNA barracks in almost every city. The crisis was started in September '91 both in the cities and outside. The Serbian paramilitaries supported by JNA blocked the roads around Krajina and expelled non-Serb population. As an answer Croatian civilians blocked JNA barracks in the cities. After negotiations JNA simply evacuated its force from the surrounded city barracks to desired territory. There was no Croatian force at all. It didn't exist, Croatia was not prepared for the war. Officially Croatian forces developed to proffesional army during '92 in the war conditions. Zenanarh (talk) 13:07, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Ethnic hatred grew and various incidents fueled the propaganda machines on both sides
Can someone give me an example of Croatian propaganda during the conflict in Croatia? This is relatvism.Serbian propaganda is a known phenomenon and by stating the sentence like this is shows like all sides were doing it while Serbian propaganda machine was fully operating.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 18:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
