Talk:Croatian Orthodox Church

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[edit] POV

It served as a front for the Ustasha's in their genocide against Serbs and was canonically unacceptable. This is very POV, as almost the entire first paragraph of the article, and much of the rest of the article, too (Some Croats living in Montenegro support the idea of Red Croatia, and support the Montenegrin Orthodox Church to achieve their goals. Some Serbs see the Montenegrin Orthodox Church as being the present day incarnation of the Croatian Orthodox Church.).--MaGioZal 07:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The latter is indeed POV - but what's wrong with the first bit?--PaxEquilibrium 15:03, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
By definition, genocide is: "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.", so please explain how mentioned church falls into this category. Article is poor written, as copied from pamphlet of some kind. Please, keep to the subject. Intention to repeat information regarding killings, tortures, genocide, extermination etc. in every article which considers WWII in Balkans is not and shoudn't be the idea of Wikipedia. Short and clear article, with information, references and links would be better. Good template for this article could be French version, maybe with few additional data. Some relevant resources would be nice.Plantago 11:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
This Church's sole existence lies in the very thing - it only existed while it was manned by the Axis powers (the World War II Nazies) and it's sole cause was the destruction of an ethnic group.

--PaxEquilibrium 15:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry I have to repeat myself once again. I can agree with what PE wrote, but we should not give ethic judgment, only cite relevant sources, or am I wrong?.
This is badly written article, to name just multiple POV's and no relevant resources (I've read mentioned resources, but they are really worthless, and even them are not properly quoted). There are too much author's opinions, too much unproven information and speculations (for instance, what is the source for the claim of Germogen's inclination towards Catholic church, private connections of some Croatian radical politicians with Ortodox church and their private wishes). I will try to write NPOV article and present it to fellow wikipedians soon. Regards, Plantago 19:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The point is: when for example an article in Wikipedia says “Sex before marriage is canonically unacceptable by the Southern Baptist Church”, it’s NPOV; but if the article says “Sex before marriage is canonically unacceptable” it is POV. Wikipedia is not about advocating POVs linked to religion, it’s about the clear and rational description of facts as most as possible.--MaGioZal 11:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Well of course. --PaxEquilibrium 18:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Actual facts

Ok, here are some article "facts" vs. real facts regarding Croatian Orthodox Church (COC):
Germogen:

"fact": defrocked Russian priest, with inclination towards Catholic church
fact: he was member member of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, which was established after October revolution, when priests close to Russian White Guard emigrated from Russia. He himself emigrated to Kingdom of Yugoslavia in 1922, where this church established monastery in Sremski Karlovci. He was never defrocked and he was never close to Vatican, as second paragraph in the same section properly mentions. It would be nice to mention that he was executed by the partisans (without trial) the very same day partisans entered Zagreb, in his 85th year.

Uniate church:

"fact": church was meant to have the same aims as the other Uniate churches...
fact: COC was not uniate church; definition of uniate church is "Eastern Christian church that is in communion with the Roman Catholic Church but retain its own languages, rites, and codes of canon law" (as, for instance, Eparchy of Križevci).

It is worth to read the whole article by Mr. Milos Obrknezevic, Serbian Orthodox, who was secretary to Germogen, because it is valuable first-hand testimony, and also Mrs. Fikreta Jelić-Butić's book "Ustashas and the Independent State of Croatia, 1941-1945". Plantago 14:47, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong links

In this article,the link that should link to the Croatian Orthodox Church Patriarch Germogen,links to a Russian Partriarch from 17th century.Please fix that

The link appears to have been fixed. Germogen now links to a page that has not yet been written.

Saugart 02:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Review

I have attempted to tidy this article without significantly altering the content, by removing various repetitions and improving the English. I have also removed the Eastern Christianity box, as this article appears to deal principlally with a matter of Yugoslavian politics rather than Orthodox Christian faith. There is at present no link here from the article on the Independent Croatian State, which there probably ought to be. Myopic Bookworm 10:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources?

Although Myopic Bookworm made good job in tiding up this article, the overall quality is by my opinion terrible. The worst of all are sources. There is not even one reliable resource, only some very biased pamphlets. As I know that PaxEquilibrium is very good in referencing, I'm asking him to find resources for his and other questionable claims, such as "church manager", "appointed by Stepinac", "inclined to Uniates", "defrocked Orthodox priests", "goal to...establish...theocratic and purely Catholic state" which are not documented in article. As it is now, it appears like putting equal sign between Catholic church in Croatia and Ustaše movement. Also, part involving leaders of HSP is not giving any reference, so it is at this moment clear WP:OR. Can we leave introduction, and and try to document first section without all that speculations? Also, second section about modern times would need more proper sources, there are just two, Serbian Tanjug and Grecian HR-Net, from the war times.--Plantago (talk) 13:53, 17 December 2007 (UTC)