Talk:Croatian Ground Army
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[edit] Graphic of the Structure of the Croatian Ground Army
I'm currently working on a project to create graphics of the structure of the European Armies. i.e. France. I also want to make a graphic of the Croatian Army, but the information at this point is not sufficient. I need to know which units compromise the Croatian Army down to the Bataillon level before I can start working on the graphic. At this point neither the English wikipedia nor the English version of the official homepage of the Croatian Army (http://www.morh.hr/osrh/data/hkov_en.html) have this information. Can anyone help? Thanks noclador
My understanding is that the Patria deal is not planned but under tender and should be listed in a more neutral fashion. Same with the Gothenburg class ships in the naval session. That is a theoretical deal, but by no means certain, and even unlikely to occur per other sources. Madmisha 21:42, 5 March 2007 (UTC)madmisha
Croatia never had any AMX 30 tanks. You must have confused it with Bosnia.
Again, I must correct you; Croatia never had received, purchased or ordered AMX 30. Also, there are no sources to confirm your claim. You simply mixed it up. I do not mean to offend you, just to tell you how things stand. You can easily check this at http://www.morh.hr/katalog/documents/dpr_final.pdf. Just look at the page 23, that is official MoD strategic plan of armed forces development. It lists Croatian ground forces equipment - first column is current status, secound is how many Croatia needs, third is reserve, fourth is future purchase and last is equipment for scrap. No AMX 30 anywhere. Also, on that pdf document you can see organizational scheme of Croatian armed forces if you need it. Madmisha 21:42, 5 March 2007 (UTC)madmisha
Yes this is the planed strategic document, and it was made in 2005, but some changes have been made, it is general document, example some of the equipment especially artillery will simply be of no use to Croatia.
All soviet artillery, or ex Yugoslav stuff will be scraped or put in to reserve. In that document this is not even mentioned, Croatia will only keep 18x 155m Howitzers, buy additional howitzers from Western source when funds are available, in mean time some artillery will be used to train troops, until western models become available. You need to read the document wit open mind. Also when it comes to tanks, currently Croatia has 77 tanks, 7M95 are being built as we speak, (even pictures were published in Croatian press, you can see 7 tanks bing worked on) and they'll be part of new tank force, Croatia needs 104 tanks and this is how many tanks Croatia will have, but this is not mentioned in the document, as I said, read it with the open mind, who ever written the document had no time to clarify each and every piece of information. Mic of orion
I was just pointing out that croatian army has no AMX-30 tans, nor did ever had them. You are corect regarding croatian need for new armor, but purchasing new tank is out of the question right now; non will be purchased until deal for new wheeld armored veicles is over. Those tanks in assembling stage are prototypes in duro dakovic factory - none of them is intended for use in cro-army (goverment paid for part of the development costs, but newer ordered a single tank, nor it plans to do so for now). Prototypes are made for possible deal with Kuwait for upgrade of their M-84 and production of couple of dozens of new tanks. (plz use your nick so I know who you are)
True, well, depending on Kuwaiti deal, if Kuwait does decide to upgrade there tanks at Djuro Djakovic, (they are visiting the plant next month - early June)we'll know, as to APC deal, yep, that will most likely be 252 vehicles in 2 batches of 126 vehicles, although only 126 are mentioned, I do believe 252 will be ordered over next 7-8 years, Croatian army plans to scrap, every single Yugo and Soviet piece of equipment and replace it with he Croatian or Western Made. I spoke to few ppl in MOD and they all agree on this statement, but there is a issue of funds, and lack of. Not sure where AMX 30's ever delivered to Croatia, (if they were, they most likely went to reserve status as they are obsolete tanks) and most likely local press would report it as well, perhaps criticizing government for making Croatia a dump for obsolete western equipment. Still, few websites did cite Croatia having AMX30 tanks. I guess I was wrong, I need to check with the Croatian MOD before I postMic of orion
Noclador, I'll try to dig something, Croatian Army is going through transition, with the latest defense white paper plan calls for reduction of the army to 10500 troops, with 2 main brigades, one in Slavonia and 2nd in Dalmatia/Lika region.
Airforce will remain at 3200 personal (700 additional personal) and Navy might also get 500 additional personal after 2010. Currently Navy has 2000 personal. Under the strategic overview, Croatia plans to purchase 4 Corvettes, 4 large gun boats (Veliki Ophodni Bord) and 2 Swedish Gunboats might became available if JAS39 deal gets go ahead. Croatian military doctrine will primarily support peacekeeping and NATO operations, 9th brigade which is based in Gospic, will be large mix brigade with 2 battalions of mechanized infantry (108 Patria IFV's), 1 battalion of Mountain troops, Artillery detachment (24x 120mm mortars, 18x 155mm howitzers), 1x engineer battalion, 1x logistics battalion, 1x Signals Company, 1x Recon Company (12x LOV BIV, 12x Ivevo MCV's), 1x Military Police Company (parts are already deployed in Afghanistan), 1x Field Hospital, 1x bio-chem battalion in all about 4-5000 men.
Brigade in Slavonia is be based in Vinkovci, and it will be a large brigade, 5x Armored Companies (84x M84D or M-95D) 2x Mechanised Infantry battalions (104 M80A1 - they are to be upgraded as well, 42x Patria or Pandur II IFV's,) 1x Engineer battalion, 1x Artiljeri battalion (18x 155mm Howitzers, 2x M87 Orkan MLRS, 12x RAK 24, 24x RAK 12, 24 120mm Mortars), 1x Logistic battalion, 1x Signals Company, 1x Bio-Chem Company, 1x Recon Company (24x Iveco MCV's), 1x Military police Platoon and few other smaller units.
In reserve there are plans for 2 more brigades staffed by professional officers, 2000 volunteers and 8000 reservist. NO one knows the structure of brigades as of yet, but most likely 2 brigades will be equipped with Patria 8x8 IFV's, Iveco's MCV's, Artillery, Engineer and Logistic battalions. Current 1st (Tigers) and 2nd (Gromovi) brigades will most likely be these reserve brigades, and 9th and 3rd will be active professionally staffed brigades. In all Croatian Army will have 20700 personal including reserves and active personal sometimes after 2010.Mic of orion
posted some info, need to do some research, call my contacts in Croatian MOD. Mic of orion
[edit] AMV vs Pandur
I haven't seen any news on the Patria AMV being chosen...the Pandur is still in the race, is it?--MoRsE 10:10, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes it is, Croatia might opt out for both, it seems like that, Croatian tender for initial batch of 126 APC's might be increased to 250-300 APC's.
Fins are offering beater deal than Americans and it is likely that initial order of 126 APC's will be for Patria, but to appease Americans Croatia might, read this as most likely is to order 42 6x6 APC's from US.
If it was up to me, I'd never buy something under duress, it often is not a good deal, and Croatian experiance with ppl like Bechtel and the rest of the neo-con gang should teach local decision makers not to give to pressure...
But I am quite certain Croatia will opt out for Patria.
Just to add to the discussion, it is my view that Patria vs Pandur needs to be looked at as a part of bigger picture of modernization of Croatian armed forces, notably purchase of new fighters for air force. It sure looks like Fins are offering better deal, as well as Swedes with their supply of JAS 39 fighters. However, I tend to believe that Croatian government will make some sort of compromise and purchase, for example, Patria and F-16, or Pandur and JAS 39. --Deveen 17:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
OK, latest, it is highly likely Patria won the contract to supply new APC to Croatian Army, most annalist in Croatia are now saying this and even some reports are coming that Patria has been chosen as a new APC for Croatian army, the clincher was, Among others deal for Crotram, City of Helsinki expressed interest to purchase up to 100 Crotrams + major shipbuilding orders and investments in to Croatian economy. Croatian economy is experiencing unprecedented boom in economic growth and FDI, in first 3 months 1.2 billion euro of green field investments have pured in to Croatia, and this has energized government to be more proactive, it is likely, if Crotram deal goes ahead Patria might get additional contracts for supply more vehicles, although it is highly likley all patria APC's will be built in Slavonski Brod. Croatia has needs for 250-300 Patria APC/IFV's over next 10 years. Mic of orion
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:P83002351.jpg
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BetacommandBot 14:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Corections
Croatia never bought any Hummers, those on pics under the text belong to the US Army (you can see that croatian soldiers stand next to americans in green uniforms on a joint exercise)). In fact, they are on a practice ground in Croatia - Croatian forces in Afganistan wear different kind of uniform (desert cammo)(look at http://www.hrvatski-vojnik.hr/hrvatski-vojnik/0732006/bpictures/bhoto08_8.jpg) Information about adoption of Croatian rifle is also wrong, tender is not even anounced. Name of the rifle is VHS, not XD - XD is a Springfield brand for HS2000 series of polymer framed pistol). The VHS rifle never made it out of the factory testing facility, and statement that Croatian special forces are testing it in Afganistan is simply not true! (Croatian minister of defence Berislav Rončević did hint that he will get the rifle to soldiers in Afganistan and was rediculised in media because of his ignorance - there is a a long procedure before fielding a prototype weapon) No croatian unit ever leid their hands on a prototype rifle made in HS Produkt, because it is not even tested. It is a prototype! In Fact, croatia purchased 200 G36 rifles for units in Afganistan based on a good performance of those rifles in croatian special police units (Alpha police unit from Lučko in zagreb - http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n83/Dan12345_2006/specijalci134ao9kt1.jpg). In fact G36 was delivered six months ago (http://www.nacional.hr/articles/view/32921/) Also, information about 256 APC's is also wrong. S-300 PMU vas never operational, because the radar unit was newer delivered - System was never paid for (Arms dealer Zvonko Zubak sued Croatian goverment for not paying for the part that was delivered - launchers) And where did you get those information about 60.000 FN-FAL rifles? Man, please restrain your fantasies and wishes and stick to the facts! Dusmar11 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dusmar11 (talk • contribs) 13:37, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Not sure for the other comments as they are not concerning me, but Patria deal has gone ahead and number of Patria APC's ordered stands at 126, but this number will increase, most likely to 252 or even more. Croatia plans to keep 3 brigades, 2 active and one reserve (50 active) each brigades requiring a battalion of Patria APC's (3x52 vehicles)- on top of that other versions of Patria are needed for Armored ambulance, scouting, peacekeeping operations, engineering vehicles and so on, as i said number could easily be in region of 250-300 vehicles by 2020.
Also, Croatia received 12 Hummers from US, these are in Afghanistan, actually Croatia was offered all types and kinds of the equipment US has in Afghanistan free of charge, only request from US is for Croatia to increase its presence in Afghanistan, which Croatia is doing anyways. I think plan is to have 2 companies (320 solders) in Afghanistan by the end of 2007.
As to rifles I agree, I think they are still testing the rifle and 4-5 samples were sent to Afghanistan for testing, sometime in late 2008 we should know more about the riffle and when and if it is going to be a weapon of choice for Croatian Army.
Well I responded to few of your concerns even though It was not me who posted the information, I am not certain as to the other weapons I am sure someone knows more and can dully inform or correct the article in due course.
BTW I agree about FN-FAL, not sure where the figure of 60 000 came from, I know Argentina sold some 1200 samples in 1994/1995, Carlos Menem former Argentine President was indicted for braking the UN embargo and corruption among other things as a result of this affair. Mic of orion 12:36, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Hrm.jpg
Image:Hrm.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot 01:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Hkov.jpg
Image:Hkov.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot 10:07, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
