Talk:Cro-Magnon
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Can anyone give credibility to this statement: However, this is highly speculative since no Cro-Magnon remains have been found in Africa. It was recently added to the article. - UtherSRG (talk) 11:02, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Pronunciation
One editor has said the usual English pronunciation is incorrect, and in English there certainly is a connotation of roughness. Let someone give the origin of the term Cro-magnon within the article. I guess the term comes from a place in France, and the pronunciation of the g should be soft? My keyboard won't let me sign off. Help.
- Asked an anthropologist. You're supposed to pronounce it man-yon, not mag-non. 64.198.112.210 20:28, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I haven't heard it because my audio doesn't work, but GN in French are like Spanish Ñ, Italian GN, Portugese NH and Serbo-Croat NJ. How do you pronounce gnu? The same with gnon. --85.84.232.213 01:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Meaning
I realize that "big-hole" sounds spurious, but that really is what the words "cro" (hole) "magnon" (big) mean in Old French. It refers to the hole in the rock where their skeletons were found. Maybe someone could find a more elegant way to present this info, but I believe it's relevant & should remain on the page.--Funhistory 16:14, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- I suppose that would be cro, cognate with modern French creux (hollow); and magnon, cognate with Latin magnus (large). Makes sense. But do you have a reference for that? — Gulliver ✉ 21:35, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- That you were able to decipher it would seem conclusive, but one reliable source is Michon Scott's Strange Science site (the specific page being [1]; the 1868 entry about halfway down). Sorry, I don't know anyone fluent in Old French who can positively confirm it.--Funhistory 16:01, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Excessive vandalism
This page seems to have a remarkably high rate of vandalism, could one of you vandals be so kind as to share your motivations? Racism against europeans maybe? I would also like to add that something should be added to the article to the effect that cro-magnons have direct descendants alive today, as the person who posted "The lineages of men" below shows. Every other source I've seen makes this point, and talks a bit about paleolithic vs. neolithic europeans, R1b and etc, this article really does stand out in an odd way to be missing this information. --209.105.204.48 01:54, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The lineages of men
According to a recent research done by a group coordinated by the National Geographic Society, called " The Genographic Project" the Cro Magnon men have had the next history: Originated in central Africa identified by an ancient Y chromosome marker called M168, somewhere around 60,000 years ago. They formed the second great migration out of Africa, in direction of the Middle East and are defined as the mutation M89. Some of them remained in the Middle East, but others continued to Central Asia, perhaps following the great herds of buffalo, woolly mammuts, deers and other game. A group of M89s moved to Anatolia and the Balkans, trading grasslands for forests. Some 40,000 years ago appeared a unique man, in actual Iran or Southern Asia, with a genetic marker known as M9, marking a diverging new lineage.Among them was a unique man, with the marker known as haplogroup M9, origen of the asian clan. In this group, the man who had the marker M45, first appear about 45,000 to 40,000 years ago,and became the common ancestor of most europeans and Native Americans. Apparently they were moving north to the game-rich esteppes of Kasakhstan, Ubekistan and southern Siberia. They survived in this harsh enviroment, while the hunt was plentiful by erecting skin huts sewed water tight clothing. No other hominid is known to have survived this harsh envoiroment. Members of the haplogroup R are descendants of the first large scale european human settlers.The lineage is defined by the Y chromosome marker M173, which shows a westward journey of M45-carring asian steppe hunters. The descendant of M173 arrived in europe around around 35,000 years ago and inmediatly made a mark in the Continent elaborating elaborated paintings in some caves, like Lescaux and Chauvet, signing the arrival of humans with artistic skill, never recorded before. At the time ended the Neanderthals, conciding with the arrival of the Cro Magnons, who perhaps influenced it by being more resourseful and outcompeted their cousins. Today, this marker´s frequency is very concentrated in northern France, Ireland, the British Islands and Spain. Members of the haplogroup R1b, dofined by M343 are direct descendants of Europe´s first modern humans, known as the Cro-Magnon people. They elaborated woven clothing and constructed huts to withstand the frigid times of the upper paleolithic era. They used relatively advanced tools of stone, bone and ivory. Jewelry, carvings and intrincate, colorful cave paintings bear witness to the Cro-Magnons advanced culture during the last glacial age. Some 70% of the man in Southern England are R1b. In parts of Spain and Ireland, are more than 90%. According to the Genographic Project, there are4 many sub-lineages still to be determined, and hpoes to bring future clarity in a not so far future.
Is it true that Cro-Magnon man was taller, on the average, than modern man?--207.225.65.89 15:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
A note: Where do you have any evidence that F (M89) men moved as far as to the Balkans BEFORE the advance of the Cro-Magnons? (Your note could be interpreted this way.) We can assume that some human group from Asia Minor penetrated to Europe long before Cro-Magnons, but the only genetic remains of this group is today mtDNA U5-haplogroup in Europeans. The men of this group were probably "neutralized" by Cro-Magnons. Later, about 25 000 BC, a new Near Eastern wave bringing probaly the Gravettian culture penetrated to the Balkans and Central Europe (the "I/M170" people"). The haplotype later survived the last ice age in Dalmatia ("the Balkan refugium") and then spread across Europe. User:Centrum 99, 22 August 2006
[edit] Removed confuse comment at the first paragraph
It read: ...chromosomally descending from Y haplogroup F / mt haplogroup N populations of the Middle East.
While it's probably correct, F and N are such huge macro-haplogroups that it's like saying nothing. Presented that way it could create confusion in the reader, who doesn't need to be an expert in population genetics and know that R1b (Y-DNA) and H (MtDNA) are part of those super-haplogroups F and N.
I actually found this problem in my favorite anthropology forum, when a new member came asking about R1b and saying that Cro-Magnons were F based in this article [2]. Normally F is read as F* (uncategorized F), and that is tyical of South Asia specially. Same for N (though, in this case N* is most typical of Australian Aborigines, with some also in the Eurasian steppes) [3].
If you want to open a (necesarily speculative) section on Cro-Magnon genetical ancestry, fine with me. But do it in a way that is easily understandable for the common layman. And there's no need to place it in the lead section anyhow. --Sugaar 09:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- mtDNA Haplogroup N* is common among populations of Japan and the Amur River region as well as among Australian aborigines.
[edit] Grimaldi and Cro-magnon
The Cro-Magnon Man is an Upper Paleolithic man living in Europe from -20 000 BC. Cro-Magnon is already a white-man, a pure European.
The Grimaldi Negroids (-40 000 Bc - -20 000 BC): is a prehistoric race of men whose remains were first found in cave (Grimaldi, Italy, near Menton, France). They are found in lower layers than Cro-Magnon men, whom they therefore preceded. "The Negroids of Grimaldi," writes Verneau, "are tall and their skull is extremely high." Grimaldi skeletons have been found in Western and Central Europe. But they probably originated in Africa.
We can conclude that, Crimaldi a negroid coming from africa mutated to Cro-Magnon around -20 000 BC.
References:
- R. Verneau, Les Grottes de Grimaldi, Vol. 1, pt. 1, "Anthropologie," Monaco, 1906.1912, 2 Vols)
- The African Origin of Civilization, Cheikh Anta Diop.
- Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin [4] --84.130.28.24 06:53, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
- That's not modern science for the most part. Modernly all those "types" are thought to be branches of modern Europeans and roughly are collectively known as "Cro-Magnon" men and women. The very usage of the term "Cro-Magnon" is confuse and difuse and basically it stands for "Upper Paleolithic European", of which the original Cro-Magno man is just one among many fossil samples. --Sugaar 09:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
But there are morphological differences between the Grimaldi-type and the Cro-magnon type. The modern-men in europe 40 000 to 20 000 BC isn't morphologically different from his african-counterpart, so why call him cro-magnon or modern European, as the african modern men is older: 195 000 years --84.131.143.153 10:30, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Brain Capacity and robust physiology
The entry mentions that Cro-Magnons had a larger brain capacity and a more robust physiology than modern europeans. Is this really true?
Where is the evidence for this?
I too would like to know!
- see [5] the brain of the fossil Cro-Magnon 1 is about 1600 cc which is quite a bit larger than modern humans, though I think if you average out all the cro-magnon fossils the difference is not quite that large. Nowimnthing 22:37, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
It definitely needs to be cited, I have added a citation tag on it, if we cannot cite it, we must remove the claim. Dionyseus 00:59, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Cro-Magnon and Neandethal?
The current article says that Cro-Magnons date back about 40000 years, and also that they "coexisted with Neanderthals for some 60,000 years in the Levant". Unless my math skills are horribly wrong, this would seem to assert that Neanderthals will still exist 20000 years from now, which is an odd assertion considering they're generally thought to have gone extinct long ago. Which number is in the wrong? -- Milo —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.171.2.42 (talk • contribs) .
- The article actually says that "although morphologically modern humans seem to have coexisted with Neanderthals for some 60,000 years in the Levant[3]"
- Morphologically modern humans is distinct from Cro-magnon humans and I think the point the paragraph is trying to make is that theories about Cro-magnons causing the extinction of Neaderthals could be undercut by the fact that Neaderthals coexisted with other early humans in other places for much longer and did not become extinct. Nowimnthing 16:32, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
As it put it by the eurindian etymological perspective: As it put it by the euskarian etymological perspective:
- Cro is presumably a contracted form of koro, meaning "circle" or "void".
- Magnon is presumably maina and on, meaning care or cry and place, so is maina on.
Cro-Magnon could mean Koro-Mainon, "sacred place for lament".
- I took the preceding text out of this article as the intros don't sound like anything I've read in any linguistic article, and the crying and lamenting comment sounds biased (or, at the least, awkwardly emtional), and is unsourced. What language do koro and maina come from, for example.... Google brought back a couple penis panic pages, including Wikipedia's own, where it's said koro means "head of the turtle" in Malay. Meanwhile, koro is a Japanese incense burner, typically globular. So maybe koro might mean "circle" in a root Asian langauge. Meanwhile, maina is all over the place (also a typoed form "mania").
- Is this OR? It was the first and, so far, only contribution from User:85.86.20.77. Would this anonymous IP like to cite a source? Xaxafrad 23:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
-
- It is a nonsense, or at least highly speculative original research. You did very well removing it. --Sugaar 09:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Source for HG F Assertion
What is thes source for the haplogroup F connection Cro-Magnon man? Do the pre-F lineages then belong to a pre-modern, more primitive subspecies? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.3.10.129 (talk) 22:27, 1 March 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Haplogroup F and N
There is no evidence or source saying that cro magnons descend from y chromsome F and MtDna N. Also anthropological traits such as cro magnon phenotype correlate indirectly with haplotypes, a haplotype is not responsible for phenotype (haplotypes are bits of waste genetic data that have no function but merely stay in populations).
I will be deleting the statement about haplotypes if nobody provides a source for this information. --Globe01 11:27, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
- The mtDNA N is correct (see: [6]) but I don't think there's anything regarding Y-DNA that is known. I'm deleting that part and I suggest that the DNA issue be moved to some subsection of the article, as it's not so important as to be in the introductory paragraph. --Sugaar 01:58, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
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- I'm glad you made it a separate section. TimidGuy 11:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Garbled sentences and dubious sources
I did not want to jump inand start editing htis article without discussing the problems. There is a sentence which says "But another possibility is that the Cro-magnons that have interbred with the Neanderthals are no longer under us." What the hell is "no longer under us" supposed to mean? That they have been dug up? That they are somehow superios to us? Two sentences later it says "There may although still be pockets of those people present, most prominent candidate are the Basques. " What kind of English is "there may although still be?" Also in the secition on redheadedness being inherited from Neanderthals, the sources arguing for it do not appear to be reliable or to satisfy WP:ATT. The "Dhamurian society" and newspaper features do not really belong in a scientific topic where there are peer reviewed journals. Edison 14:48, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I'll second that, i agree with everything you said. And we still need sources for the statements on cro magnons man y chromsome and mtdna lineages.
--Globe01 15:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Cro-Magnon life
[edit] Section Confusing
The following sentences in this section seem contradictory. Although per the discussion above I see how they are not, the writing is sloppy at best.
Cro-Magnons lived from about 40,000 to 10,000 years ago in the Upper Paleolithic period of the Pleistocene epoch.
The Cro-Magnons must have come into contact with the Neanderthals, and are often credited with causing the latter's extinction, although morphologically modern humans seem to have coexisted with Neanderthals for some 60,000 years in the Levant --Kevin Murray 22:23, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] First Calendar
Just wanted to bring your attention to an additional reference to the Cro Magnon people made in Fundamendal Astronomy, ISBN 978-3-540-34143-7, 5th Edition, Springer, where it is stated in the introductory chapter that The Cro Magnon people made bone engravings 30,000 years ago, which may depict phases of the Moon. These calendars are the oldest astronomical documents, 25,000 years older than writing. Compare this to reference [4]. --Parelax 21:17, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Page Blanked???
who deleted everything? --Cc481613 22:13, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Cro magnon man did not come from south asia
the latest work from the genographic project and dna retreaved from cro magnons tells us that human beings came to europe via east africa, the middle east and including/not including central asia.
Why does someone keep reverting the text to saying cro magnons had a south asian origin?
they didnt. South asians can trace australoid origin fron ancient african australoids (the ancestral race of negroids, caucasoids and mongoloids and closest to homo erectus).
the genographic project clearly shows all european, middle eastern and north african caucasoid mtdna ancestry originating via mtdna L3 which first appeared in northern africa via an ancient eastern/central african origin. And all y-chromosome lineages descend from the east african m168 whose ancestors travelled up the red sea into the middle east and on itno europe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.165.71 (talk) 14:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
- The primary source of this information is Stephen Oppenheimer and Toomas Kivisild; Kivisild has published numerous papers on the South Asian origin of Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups. -- Gerkinstock 04:02, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Scientific Name
Could someone add an explanation of how The Cro Magnon Man is related to modern Homo sapiens sapiens? In the Homo (genus) page, it is described as "Homo sapiens sapiens palestinus". Does this make it a sub-sub-species?
