Template talk:Criticism-section

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Templates for deletion This template was considered for deletion on 2007 May 11. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Contents

[edit] Wording

If we don't want the merge arrows and color, that's fine, but I think the wording at least was better.

  • A "controversy" section usually stems from a well-defined event involving the subject, unlike a "criticism" section which is usually ongoing negative commentary by others. These situations should not be treated as one and the same. I fear that doing that would jumble articles out of chronological order and make them more difficult to read.
  • "An editor" sounds elitist at worst and redundant at best. This is Wikipedia, where, unlike Citizendium anybody reading the page be "an editor" of it. Using that terminology on a cleanup tag lends it a false sense of validity.
  • The "words to avoid" section link was just plain confusing. The stated goal is a more neutral article. The target of the link should clearly reflect that.
  • In many cases, the simplest and most effective remedy would be to rename the section heading in the article to something less polemic, as per "words to avoid".

— CharlotteWebb 16:48, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Criticism and Controversy sections are usually bad for exactly the same reasons. This template is meant for both. A section that is primarily about a certain controversial event should be named after that event, not named after the "controversy" it provoked. See [1], [2]
  • "An editor" clarifies who tagged the page. Without it, what will newcomers think?
  • The "words to avoid" page section is specifically about presentation issues and unbalanced article structures, which is what this template is for. Following the link to WP:NPOV is unhelpful; it provides no information about this situation. Linking to both is fine, but I don't know how to fit it in with your shortened wording.
  • Agreed. — Omegatron 17:07, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Looking at the diffs of your edits, it appears you agree that the appropriate solution for a "==Controversy==" section is to give the heading a more objective title, rather than dispersing it into other sections as this template suggests! Why should the same instructions be given for both situations? Clearly one size does not fit all.
  • I don't see why that needs clarifying at all, because any attempt at clarifying sounds a little bit condescending, like "this tag was placed here by somebody whose opinions matter", rather than the Easter Bunny or the Gideons, especially when "editor" has different (often more esteemed) connotations outside Wikipedia. It really shouldn't matter who placed the tag, only that "the suggestion has been made, take it for what it's worth".
  • NPOV is an end. "Avoiding" certain words is a means. The end is always more important, and there are always multiple ways to achieve the same goal. I mean, look at this again:
    "...to achieve a [[Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Article structure|more neutral presentation]]"
    Hopefully nobody would write an article with:
    "...to achieve good [[Electric toothbrush#Effectiveness|dental hygiene]]."
    because that would just be silly, not to mention possible POV issues in itself (no mention of flossing). If you want to find some way to work that link into the template, that's fine, but this is not a good way of doing it.

— CharlotteWebb 18:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

The change from "An editor.." to "It has been suggested.." seems fine, since other common tags use the passive voice, though I don't see what was elitist with the original version. Excluding "Controversy" sections is a mistake, however, since they are susceptible to the same abuses as "Criticism" sections, namely lumping all the negatives in one place. For example, the Al Sharpton article lumps all of his controversies at the end, which is silly, since he is by calling always in the midst of controversy. A better structure for that article would be to incorporate the controversial episodes chronologically into the discussion of his career in civil rights activism. So the remedy for "Controversy" sections, in some cases at least, is the same as that prescribed by this template. I also think there is a benefit in referring to both WP:NPOV and WP:WTA#Article structure, since the latter is an accepted Wikipedia guideline and provides a more explicit reference to "Criticism" or "Controversy" sections. Djcastel 03:00, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about the current wording, often criticism sections can actually make articles worse, by that I mean more negative. Usually they provide a dumping ground for all kinds of junk. Aaron Bowen 05:59, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Usually, yes. And when the section itself is a good structure, it's often better to give the section a better name, like when the "controversy" section deals with only one particular event. It's better to leave it in one section, but make the section about the event itself instead of the "controversy" the event generated. — Omegatron 20:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV discussion on addition

There is a discussion at NPOV about Criticism and controversy sections. It has lead to a draft discussion of a article structure addition. Please have a look. Morphh (talk) 18:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] h2g2bob

The way I had written it basically says "it's been suggested that this change will improve the article's neutrality". Contrast that with "this article has a problem and it this is the way to fix it". If you would apply the latter phrase to an article, then obviously you're so sure about it that you could fix it yourself, whereas I'd assume this template ought to be used in cases where the "right solution" to an article's POV problems is not so crystal clear. Especially if this is going to be expanded to include "controversy" surrounding a specific incident involving the subject (rather than ongoing commentary by "critics"). It would make little sense to intersperse this material into other sections and lose all semblance of chronological order. Simply changing the title of the section would probably fix that issue most of the time. Or there could be better solution for a specific given article, one that we don't have a template for because nobody's thought of it yet. — CharlotteWebb 19:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

then obviously you're so sure about it that you could fix it yourself

These templates are often used when you see something that needs fixing, but don't have time to fix it, or you know it needs reorganizing, but aren't involved enough in the topic to reorganize it well, etc. — Omegatron 20:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Coherence vs NPOV

What about changing the template so that it talks about criticism sections being bad for article flow rather than it being bad for NPOV? I value NPOV, but a coherent article is more likely (on average) to be NPOV than an article that flows badly, and it's easier to agree on coherence than on NPOV. Andjam 15:27, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Go for it. I'm not sure what wording you intend but I can assume it would make more sense than the current. — CharlotteWebb 12:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
While you could add the aspect of coherence, I would not remove the aspect of NPOV as it applies to Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Article_structure. In fact I would probably relink the neutral presentation to the NPOV and the coherence to Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Article_structure. Morphh (talk) 13:06, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Again, I advocate the principle of least astonishment when piping links. Don't do it in such a way that the relationship between the link targets to the message text is non-obvious or resembles spoon-feeding. Don't link to what you think is useful related reading, link to what matches the main message. If these ideas don't match, it would be better to rewrite the message than to turn it into an easter egg hunt. Create a separate MoS page if needed. — CharlotteWebb 14:31, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hi guys!

I have a little problem. Hundreds of articles have Controversy sections. I do agree that this tag is needed, when it comes to have too much controversy sections, which illustrates the person in a bad light, like in Tom Cruise's case, who has 7 sub-sections (!). However, I strongly disagree with a complete removal of such sections. It's not the same as Trivia sections, which are unencyclopedic. And when there are controversy sections, it doesn't necessarily mean that the person is depicted in a less neutral way.

And let's take Tom Cruise one more time. How can THE WHOLE section (of 7 subs) be merged wholly into the article? It's almost impossible. And if it is removed, the article will miss information. That's why I added "some of" to the template.--84.228.84.242 23:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disagree with the template

Since this template underwent an AfD (see top of the page), it is obviously controversial. The doc to the template seems to be presented in a one-sided manner, as well. I broadened Jimbo's quote to include his full statement, that criticism sections are sometimes necessary. I think they are often necessary, and flow fine. When there is a wholesale criticism about a movement or a person, that should go in a criticism section. Plus, it's a major boon to readers to allow them to quickly find criticism of, say, a politician, or an alternative (or conventional) medical therapy. ImpIn | (t - c) 03:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

If a template survives an AfD, it does not mean that is controversial. It is up to editors to decide if to segregate negative POVs to a section named "Criticism" or not. In most cases, it is best to not top make such segregations, for reasons of WP:UNDUE, flow of text, and for a better NPOV presentation of a subject. As for Jimbo's full statement, please add it if you wish, as it does not detract from its meaning. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:32, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Also note that this template is also based in good practices described in WP:WORDS and Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Article_structure, not just Jimbo's comment. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the prescriptive text from the template doc, as this is not a policy page. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:37, 2 June 2008 (UTC)